Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

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dr123
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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby dr123 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:07 pm

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beachbum
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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby beachbum » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:07 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
romothesavior wrote:1. Money. And I don't just mean "models and bottles," because I may never get to that point and I may not want to be a biglaw lifer. I just mean paying off my debt quickly and giving myself a small head start on financial stability. Also, if you work in biglaw, your post-biglaw salary is typically going to be higher if you go to another private firm.

2. Exit Options. Biglaw opens more doors to people who are a few years out than most other jobs. Sure, there is the drawback of not getting much courtroom/client exposure early on at a big firm, but most employers will know that you were talented enough to get biglaw and it will still look really good on your resume. It just opens doors.

3. Prestige. A few attorneys I have talked with have said that having biglaw on your resume and in your employment history gives you a bit more street cred. It may be a superficial thing, and it may not be a big boost, but they've said that it is impressive to say "I worked for X firm for 3 years" because those who have also done it will respect it, and those who didn't do it most likely wish they had. This is probably even more true in my small market than in others because we have only a limited handful of big firms and they are so head and shoulders above the rest in prestige and recognition.

4. OCI. In the short-term, it will make things a hell of a lot easier to get a job with a firm that hires me as a 2L and gives me a permanent offer than it will be for me to have to hustle and network for two more years, then take the bar and hopefully land something after that.


I'm not sure why people are so adamantly fighting this response. It's the truth and there's nothing wrong with it.


Seems pretty good to me.

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bk1
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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:07 pm

glitched wrote:sooo... whats a good strategy for people who don't make partner? i'm being serious here.


Start looking for another job

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bk1
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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:10 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
romothesavior wrote:1. Money. And I don't just mean "models and bottles," because I may never get to that point and I may not want to be a biglaw lifer. I just mean paying off my debt quickly and giving myself a small head start on financial stability. Also, if you work in biglaw, your post-biglaw salary is typically going to be higher if you go to another private firm.

2. Exit Options. Biglaw opens more doors to people who are a few years out than most other jobs. Sure, there is the drawback of not getting much courtroom/client exposure early on at a big firm, but most employers will know that you were talented enough to get biglaw and it will still look really good on your resume. It just opens doors.

3. Prestige. A few attorneys I have talked with have said that having biglaw on your resume and in your employment history gives you a bit more street cred. It may be a superficial thing, and it may not be a big boost, but they've said that it is impressive to say "I worked for X firm for 3 years" because those who have also done it will respect it, and those who didn't do it most likely wish they had. This is probably even more true in my small market than in others because we have only a limited handful of big firms and they are so head and shoulders above the rest in prestige and recognition.

4. OCI. In the short-term, it will make things a hell of a lot easier to get a job with a firm that hires me as a 2L and gives me a permanent offer than it will be for me to have to hustle and network for two more years, then take the bar and hopefully land something after that.


I'm not sure why people are so adamantly fighting this response. It's the truth and there's nothing wrong with it.


Uhh, I don't think anybody is fighting this response as this is the credited one. It was your other assertions that I, and others, took issue with.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:50 pm

bk1 wrote:Uhh, I don't think anybody is fighting this response as this is the credited one. It was your other assertions that I, and others, took issue with.


I hate to break it to you, but unlike Desert Fox was saying there are "good" PI jobs where you don't work the kind of hours that you do in biglaw. AUSA's and people who work for DOJ don't even work on damn Columbus day--my high school didn't even cancel classes for Columbus Day. Before you jump in with the obligatory "but only top 10 percent from HYS" get those jobs, my point wasn't about selectivity.

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bk1
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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:53 pm

BruceWayne wrote:I hate to break it to you, but unlike Desert Fox was saying there are "good" PI jobs where you don't work the kind of hours that you do in biglaw. AUSA's and people who work for DOJ don't even work on damn Columbus day--my high school didn't even cancel classes for Columbus Day. Before you jump in with the obligatory "but only top 10 percent from HYS" get those jobs, my point wasn't about selectivity.


That was obligatory last time because you compared the difficulty of landing an Art III clerkship with biglaw.

I don't know what the hours of PI jobs are so I can't really comment on that, but I would say that just because they get federally mandated holidays doesn't mean they don't normally work long hours. I don't see the logic there.

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby Stringer Bell » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:30 am

BruceWayne wrote:I've been searching my post to find out where I said any of this. My point is that people want big law because it pays a lot of money and it's difficult to get. That's why most law students do everything they do. I'm surprised that people are so defensive about admitting that.



Maybe I misunderstood your use of the word prestige since you used it in what I construed as a derogatory manner. IMO there is a difference in trying to acquire prestige as a means of career advancement vs. trying to acquire prestige solely as a means of self validation and a way to impress others for purposes that do not lead to career advancement. I figured that the context you meant it in was the latter.

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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby TatteredDignity » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:36 am

romothesavior wrote:1. Money. And I don't just mean "models and bottles," because I may never get to that point and I may not want to be a biglaw lifer. I just mean paying off my debt quickly and giving myself a small head start on financial stability. Also, if you work in biglaw, your post-biglaw salary is typically going to be higher if you go to another private firm.

2. Exit Options. Biglaw opens more doors to people who are a few years out than most other jobs. Sure, there is the drawback of not getting much courtroom/client exposure early on at a big firm, but most employers will know that you were talented enough to get biglaw and it will still look really good on your resume. It just opens doors.

3. Prestige. A few attorneys I have talked with have said that having biglaw on your resume and in your employment history gives you a bit more street cred. It may be a superficial thing, and it may not be a big boost, but they've said that it is impressive to say "I worked for X firm for 3 years" because those who have also done it will respect it, and those who didn't do it most likely wish they had. This is probably even more true in my small market than in others because we have only a limited handful of big firms and they are so head and shoulders above the rest in prestige and recognition.

4. OCI. In the short-term, it will make things a hell of a lot easier to get a job with a firm that hires me as a 2L and gives me a permanent offer than it will be for me to have to hustle and network for two more years, then take the bar and hopefully land something after that.


#4 Is almost as important to me as #1. Forgoing those 2 years of worry FTW.

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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby dkt4 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:50 am

BruceWayne wrote:
dkt4 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
LOL no and no to both of the bolded.

1. I'm not sure what you mean by "good PI" but based off of what this board considers good you probably mean DOJ/working as an AUSA at a USAO. They have MUCH better hours than biglaw. It's not even close. They don't even work on Columbus and President's Day--- not to mention job satisfaction amongst people who work for main DOJ and at the USAO's is much higher than biglaw. That's one of the reasons it's hard to get many of the spots; unlike biglaw people don't leave these positions nearly as frequently.

2. Many government agencies hire directly from law school. Particularly the so called "non prestigious" one's. And DOJ does they just prefer a clerkship first. And considering that many of these big firm jobs people are pining for require such high GPAs from top schools, that's not that different in terms of selectivity.

People want biglaw because it pays big bucks and it's "prestigious". Plain and simple. There's nothing wrong with that but that's why people want it.


so, like, 90% of this is wrong.


Go ahead and show me that 90 percent again.

http://www.justice.gov/oarm/arm/hp/hpsalary.htm#g



this is a direct quote from an AUSA who is sitting on the couch next to me right now...

"No I don't work better hours, and I work fucking every day"

gonna trust that over what the federally scheduled holidays are. but good game man, seriously. i can tell you did your research.

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yngblkgifted
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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby yngblkgifted » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:00 am

Money and the cars, cars and the clothes....the hoes...

--ImageRemoved--

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BioEBear2010
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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby BioEBear2010 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:03 am

More interesting work than other legal jobs, especially after one becomes a mid-level or senior associate (and hopefully, partner). The pay helps, too.

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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby Grizz » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:07 am

I have a small peen0r and I am trying to make up for it by making $160k.

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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby protein » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:03 am

rad law wrote:I have a small peen0r and I am trying to make up for it by making $160k.


you take that back!

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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby Grizz » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:20 am

dkt4 wrote:this is a direct quote from an AUSA who is sitting on the couch next to me right now...

"No I don't work better hours, and I work fucking every day"

gonna trust that over what the federally scheduled holidays are. but good game man, seriously. i can tell you did your research.


A family member of mine was the US Atty of large federal district and absolutely worked fewer hours than being a biglaw partner. He worked 6 days a week, but got off at a reasonable time and weekend work wasn't too oppressive.

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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby Patriot1208 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:00 am

this is a direct quote from an AUSA who is sitting on the couch next to me right now...

"No I don't work better hours, and I work fucking every day"

gonna trust that over what the federally scheduled holidays are. but good game man, seriously. i can tell you did your research.

Titcr, every ausa I know works around 60-70 hrs a week

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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby RPK34 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:11 am

Question to those who have been through 1L or beyond... Do a lot of people change their goals during the first few years of law school? I was talking to a bunch of prospective 1Ls the other day, and almost all of them had "save the world" types of hopes for what they wanted to do after school (International law, family law, immigration law, education law, public interest, etc). Yet I have a feeling most of them will be lining up at the doors in a year from now trying to get OCI corporate law jobs.

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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby The Valkyrie » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:27 am

RPK34 wrote:Question to those who have been through 1L or beyond... Do a lot of people change their goals during the first few years of law school? I was talking to a bunch of prospective 1Ls the other day, and almost all of them had "save the world" types of hopes for what they wanted to do after school (International law, family law, immigration law, education law, public interest, etc). Yet I have a feeling most of them will be lining up at the doors in a year from now trying to get OCI corporate law jobs.


I don't know anyone who didn't change their goals during law school. This is due in no small part to the ideas that 0Ls have coming into law school. There is an inordinate amount of incoming students who want to practice entertainment law (translation: I want a huge paycheck and to hang out with pop stars), international law (translation: I want a huge paycheck and to spend two weeks a month in Europe), or what have you. You also get some idea of what certain practice areas are like when you go through law school, and you change your mind based on that and finding out what you're good at/really interested in.

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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:30 am

dkt4 wrote:this is a direct quote from an AUSA who is sitting on the couch next to me right now...

"No I don't work better hours, and I work fucking every day"

gonna trust that over what the federally scheduled holidays are. but good game man, seriously. i can tell you did your research

Almost all lawyers work a lot of hours, and almost all lawyers work some on the weekends. There's no disputing that.

But very few non-biglaw people work as many hours as biglaw folks. A lot will try to make it sound like they do (some of my friends call it small firm syndrome), but most people who worked biglaw and left will say they work far less hours now. Your AUSA friend/spouse/SO may be right. Maybe he/she works as many hours as a biglaw associate. But the vast, vast majority of non-biglaw people don't work as much as those in biglaw, so it is just something to keep in mind.

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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby fragged » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:00 pm

Most Biglaw associates come from T14 schools. If you go to a T14 school and several of your friends are going to work for Biglaw when they graduate, perhaps you would feel inadequate unless you joined them. Adlerian theory would explain this simply as an inferiority complex.

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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby dkt4 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:15 pm

romothesavior wrote:Almost all lawyers work a lot of hours, and almost all lawyers work some on the weekends. There's no disputing that.

But very few non-biglaw people work as many hours as biglaw folks. A lot will try to make it sound like they do (some of my friends call it small firm syndrome), but most people who worked biglaw and left will say they work far less hours now. Your AUSA friend/spouse/SO may be right. Maybe he/she works as many hours as a biglaw associate. But the vast, vast majority of non-biglaw people don't work as much as those in biglaw, so it is just something to keep in mind.


only referencing AUSA's, but i don't disagree with your point. my point is simply this: saying that AUSA's work cushy hours is an asinine claim that holds very little to no water at all.

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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby ahduth » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:39 pm

romothesavior wrote:1. Money. And I don't just mean "models and bottles," because I may never get to that point and I may not want to be a biglaw lifer. I just mean paying off my debt quickly and giving myself a small head start on financial stability. Also, if you work in biglaw, your post-biglaw salary is typically going to be higher if you go to another private firm.

2. Exit Options. Biglaw opens more doors to people who are a few years out than most other jobs. Sure, there is the drawback of not getting much courtroom/client exposure early on at a big firm, but most employers will know that you were talented enough to get biglaw and it will still look really good on your resume. It just opens doors.

3. Prestige. A few attorneys I have talked with have said that having biglaw on your resume and in your employment history gives you a bit more street cred. It may be a superficial thing, and it may not be a big boost, but they've said that it is impressive to say "I worked for X firm for 3 years" because those who have also done it will respect it, and those who didn't do it most likely wish they had. This is probably even more true in my small market than in others because we have only a limited handful of big firms and they are so head and shoulders above the rest in prestige and recognition.

4. OCI. In the short-term, it will make things a hell of a lot easier to get a job with a firm that hires me as a 2L and gives me a permanent offer than it will be for me to have to hustle and network for two more years, then take the bar and hopefully land something after that.


Thank god someone with an ounce of sense landed in this thread.

1. Does it make you models and bottles rich? No. Will I be able to put my kids through school and guarantee their wellbeing to my satisfaction? I'm hoping so.

2. It's basically the same reason people are trying to get into HYS, T6, T14, etc. You want to have options when you leave. Big Law can provide better options than elsewhere in the field (baring A3, etc).

3. For me this is more of a... networking thing, than a prestige thing. I don't care if people know who I am, as long as I know the people who can get things done. It's a similar point however.

4. This isn't as big for me, but nevertheless, thank you for clearing the air in here.

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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby alumniguy » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:09 pm

There a few statements in some of the posts that I disagree with completely. Biglaw does not guarantee complex or interesting work - especially NOT as a junior associate. If you are a litigator, for example, then you'll simply be litigating different types of cases in biglaw compared to small law. You may be on a securities fraud case, but that doesn't automatically mean it is going to be any more complex that other types of cases. A medical malpractice case is probably going to be even more complex. The only difference is that in one instance the clients are willing to pay more money than the other.

I won't even get into what junior associates actually work on - but let me assure you that it is NOT always complex work.

One reason why 0Ls are so concerned with biglaw is because that is what law schools are focused on and what they "sell" to 0Ls. Once you've gone through on campus interviewing, you'll quickly realize that most top law schools (T30 and above) are pretty much only about biglaw hiring. Why? Because biglaw firms are more likely to come back year after year to interview students. It just isn't the case with small firms and other career choices. Yes, the career services offices will also help students looking for clerkships, government and PI jobs, but these jobs require more effort than the biglaw path. Biglaw is literally a machine that needs fresh talent every year.

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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby terrybhs06 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:32 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
this is a direct quote from an AUSA who is sitting on the couch next to me right now...

"No I don't work better hours, and I work fucking every day"

gonna trust that over what the federally scheduled holidays are. but good game man, seriously. i can tell you did your research.

Titcr, every ausa I know works around 60-70 hrs a week


Going to third this. The AUSA I know goes to dinner with his biglaw friend(their offices are across the street from each other) most nights and then they both return to the office to finish off work. Both of them really like their jobs though(neither went to a top school so maybe they have a different perspective/expectations than many T14 students do).

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gothamm
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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby gothamm » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:18 pm

Let me fix your title:

Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with $$$?

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Re: Why are so many people on TLS obsessed with Biglaw?

Postby Patriot1208 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:19 pm

gothamm wrote:Let me fix your title:

Why are so many people on TLS are people obsessed with $$$?

Let me think really hard about this.....




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