Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
dkt4
Posts: 316
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:33 pm

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby dkt4 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 am

barry wrote:At my T14 there are certainly alot of kids from very solid UG's but i would say nearly half are from unknown or lesser UG's


really? that surprises me, and runs counter to what i've noticed visiting schools - though i'm certainly not an expert. or we're defining "lesser" UGs very differently, also possible.

it doesnt matter at all unless maybe HYP or at OCI if there are alot of alumni from your UG in law firms or something


UG alumni networks/career services certainly help for job, but that seems a little tangential.

User avatar
JDndMSW
Posts: 602
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:32 am

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby JDndMSW » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:52 am

legaleagle9 wrote:Hey folks!

Im currently attending community college and looking to transfer pretty soon! I want to still live at home, and the only schools that are really reasonable driving distances from my home town are San Francisco State University and San Jose State University. I know those schools do not have elite reputations or anything, so my question is, does the UG university/college really make a huge difference when applying to Law School?

Thank you very much in advance for the responses!


If you are near these schools you are also near UC Berkeley. As a former C CC transfer as long as you meet all the pre reqs and have above a 3.7 you are almost surely given a spot at Berkeley it is WAY easier to transfer in there then get in as a freshman. Stanford though doesn't accept almost any transfer students unfortunately.

FiveSermon
Posts: 1507
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:56 pm

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby FiveSermon » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:20 am

Veyron wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:
dkt4 wrote:
abl wrote:Also, if you walk around HYS law schools, you'll see people from elite undergrads incredibly over-represented...there's a reason for that beyond people from elite undergrads scoring better on the LSATs.


this. it always surprises me that folks continually say that UG "doesn't matter." there are certainly a lot of factors that contribute to the end result, but the top law schools are overwhelmingly filled with people who attended very good, to great, undergraduate institutions.


I really doubt for schools other than HYS, it would be a significant boost to have gone to...lets say Johns Hopkins vs. some SUNY school.


Depends on the T-14, some care more about UG prestige than others. I would guess that, at minimum, it might make a difference at Penn and Yale.


What about Cornell?

Total Litigator
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:17 pm

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby Total Litigator » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:22 am

It is a soft. I don't think people are correct with a blanket "no it doesn't matter." However, it is true that the vast majority of schools are thought of by law schools in the same category. There are only a few schools on the top end and a lot of random schools on the low end which do affect your chances (albeight only by a small amount).

I have known people with great GPA's from regional colleges who did not receive the cycles one would have expected.

legaleagle9
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:59 pm

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby legaleagle9 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:38 am

JDndMSW wrote:
legaleagle9 wrote:Hey folks!

Im currently attending community college and looking to transfer pretty soon! I want to still live at home, and the only schools that are really reasonable driving distances from my home town are San Francisco State University and San Jose State University. I know those schools do not have elite reputations or anything, so my question is, does the UG university/college really make a huge difference when applying to Law School?

Thank you very much in advance for the responses!


If you are near these schools you are also near UC Berkeley. As a former C CC transfer as long as you meet all the pre reqs and have above a 3.7 you are almost surely given a spot at Berkeley it is WAY easier to transfer in there then get in as a freshman. Stanford though doesn't accept almost any transfer students unfortunately.


hey man. I would love to go to Berkeley, and my numbers would definitely get me in, and it is at the moment my top choice for Law School, but the thing that scares me away is the new Bell Curve. It makes it very hard to get A's, and its not that I do not believe in myself, I just dont want to take any chances that could hurt my GPA.

User avatar
YaSvoboden
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby YaSvoboden » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:51 am

On a more regional note, I spoke with someone from the adcom of the T1 regional in my area about various schools in the state and they definitely do not look at the GPAs equally. None of these schools are really notable academically, so I doubt they would recognize similar differences between schools from any other area of the country, but I do think the local prestige of a school matters when applying to a regional school. I'm not sure how big of a difference it is, and it is probably easier to overcome with the LSAT at that level, but it exists.

icpb
Posts: 146
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:30 am

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby icpb » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:06 am

FiveSermon wrote:
dkt4 wrote:
abl wrote:Also, if you walk around HYS law schools, you'll see people from elite undergrads incredibly over-represented...there's a reason for that beyond people from elite undergrads scoring better on the LSATs.


this. it always surprises me that folks continually say that UG "doesn't matter." there are certainly a lot of factors that contribute to the end result, but the top law schools are overwhelmingly filled with people who attended very good, to great, undergraduate institutions.


I really doubt for schools other than HYS, it would be a significant boost to have gone to...lets say Johns Hopkins vs. some SUNY school.


No they don't usually care, but a prestigious UG is a soft. I think not attending an elite undergrad isn't a big deal because with high enough LSAT/GPA, you can get into any law school. But elite undergrad (not just HYPS, but also the rest of the Ivies and probably WAS) do give a boost. At my undergrad (non-HYP Ivy), the mean of accepted students' numbers for last cycle is as follows (school (# accepted), LSAT, LSDAS GPA): Yale (8) 170.1, 3.84; Harvard (21) 171.2, 3.81; Stanford (5) 171.5 3.76.

User avatar
Veyron
Posts: 3598
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:50 am

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby Veyron » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:18 am

[/quote]

this. it always surprises me that folks continually say that UG "doesn't matter." there are certainly a lot of factors that contribute to the end result, but the top law schools are overwhelmingly filled with people who attended very good, to great, undergraduate institutions.[/quote]

I really doubt for schools other than HYS, it would be a significant boost to have gone to...lets say Johns Hopkins vs. some SUNY school.[/quote]

Depends on the T-14, some care more about UG prestige than others. I would guess that, at minimum, it might make a difference at Penn and Yale.[/quote]

What about Cornell?[/quote]


No idea.

User avatar
Sentry
Posts: 1235
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:38 pm

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby Sentry » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:38 am

It's not a huge deal but it does matter. On Duke's LSN graph earlier this year people who were 3.6-3.7x 171-173 from state schools were all WL'd where the 3 or 4 with the exact same numbers from "elite" UGs all got in.

User avatar
Non-Chalant1
Posts: 852
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:54 pm

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby Non-Chalant1 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:32 pm

Sentry wrote:It's not a huge deal but it does matter. On Duke's LSN graph earlier this year people who were 3.6-3.7x 171-173 from state schools were all WL'd where the 3 or 4 with the exact same numbers from "elite" UGs all got in.

Your avatar is sick man. Wish I could read a blown up version. Too bad I won't be there with you guys next year. Chicago has the best crest.

User avatar
Veyron
Posts: 3598
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:50 am

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby Veyron » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:40 pm

legaleagle9 wrote:
JDndMSW wrote:
legaleagle9 wrote:Hey folks!

Im currently attending community college and looking to transfer pretty soon! I want to still live at home, and the only schools that are really reasonable driving distances from my home town are San Francisco State University and San Jose State University. I know those schools do not have elite reputations or anything, so my question is, does the UG university/college really make a huge difference when applying to Law School?

Thank you very much in advance for the responses!


If you are near these schools you are also near UC Berkeley. As a former C CC transfer as long as you meet all the pre reqs and have above a 3.7 you are almost surely given a spot at Berkeley it is WAY easier to transfer in there then get in as a freshman. Stanford though doesn't accept almost any transfer students unfortunately.


hey man. I would love to go to Berkeley, and my numbers would definitely get me in, and it is at the moment my top choice for Law School, but the thing that scares me away is the new Bell Curve. It makes it very hard to get A's, and its not that I do not believe in myself, I just dont want to take any chances that could hurt my GPA.


Just say NO. Nothing fucks up your law school chanses like a bell curve.

FiveSermon
Posts: 1507
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:56 pm

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby FiveSermon » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:48 pm

I'm worried my UG might hurt me for Cornell. I just saw their facebook page and everyone there is like from a T30 school. I'm at like a T60 fml.

User avatar
JDndMSW
Posts: 602
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:32 am

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby JDndMSW » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:25 pm

FiveSermon wrote:I'm worried my UG might hurt me for Cornell. I just saw their facebook page and everyone there is like from a T30 school. I'm at like a T60 fml.


Haha I feel ya! My UG school is like seriously a JOKE, out of CA and maybe OR I doubt anyone has heard of it (Humboldt State), they have decent science and environmental programs but my major is also a joke (Social Work). The thing is I had to stay in state and since I didn't get into Berkeley (as a CC transfer) CSU's were my only option. My GPA will help and I plan to smash the LSAT but I really honestly worry that I will be so unprepared!

acrossthelake
Posts: 4431
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:27 pm

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby acrossthelake » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:33 am

I'm pretty sure my undergrad helped me, and it's not HYPS.

User avatar
dr123
Posts: 3503
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:38 am

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby dr123 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:34 am

acrossthelake wrote:I'm pretty sure my undergrad helped me, and it's not HYPS.


how can you have any idea if it helped (or hurt, for that matter)?

acrossthelake
Posts: 4431
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:27 pm

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby acrossthelake » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:38 am

dr123 wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:I'm pretty sure my undergrad helped me, and it's not HYPS.


how can you have any idea if it helped (or hurt, for that matter)?


Because I did better than my numbers would have suggested, yet have no WE and no impressive softs. My GPA was bottom 25th percentile, and I think my UG allowed for some "forgiveness" of that. Of course, I can't be sure, but it's my guess.

acrossthelake
Posts: 4431
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:27 pm

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby acrossthelake » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:05 am

f7 wrote:Your GPA is passable, your LSAT is above 75th percentile, it's absurd to credit your UG for your predictable law school outcome.


Meh, based on LSN data from last year people with my numbers combo had a decent shot, but I don't have the other things that would usually help. Maybe they liked something else, but it's possible my UG helped a little bit.

User avatar
dr123
Posts: 3503
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:38 am

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby dr123 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:09 am

Eh, LSN data is not a reliable source at all

acrossthelake
Posts: 4431
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:27 pm

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby acrossthelake » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:20 am

f7 wrote:Also, it's H, with H's massive class size, so they don't have the ability to screen for "other things" like Y and S do.


Not just talking about H, bro.

Anyway, I doubt UG is likely to ever really "hurt" anybody, but I wouldn't doubt it if there was some mild boost given to some, particularly HYP. When I looked at H undergrad's grids, their GPA floor to get into HLS was lower than the general floor.

User avatar
beachbum
Posts: 2766
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby beachbum » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:23 am

Meh, I attend an incredibly mediocre undergrad (just barely in the T100), and I'm headed to a T14 this fall. And there sure as hell isn't anything else about my app (besides my charming personality) that would compensate for my relatively poor undergrad.

Total Litigator
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:17 pm

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby Total Litigator » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:27 am

Just to clarify, when I'm talking about undergrads that could hurt your chances, I'm def not talking about a US News top 100. In fact I'm not talking about a US News T1. Actually, I'm not even talking about US News T2's. I'm not even talking about strong regional colleges.

There are well over 4,000 colleges in the US, I'll just put it that way.

FiveSermon
Posts: 1507
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:56 pm

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby FiveSermon » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:32 am

beachbum wrote:Meh, I attend an incredibly mediocre undergrad (just barely in the T100), and I'm headed to a T14 this fall. And there sure as hell isn't anything else about my app (besides my charming personality) that would compensate for my relatively poor undergrad.


CHECK YOU LSAT

User avatar
OperaSoprano
Posts: 4410
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:54 am

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:08 am

Total Litigator wrote:It is a soft. I don't think people are correct with a blanket "no it doesn't matter." However, it is true that the vast majority of schools are thought of by law schools in the same category. There are only a few schools on the top end and a lot of random schools on the low end which do affect your chances (albeight only by a small amount).

I have known people with great GPA's from regional colleges who did not receive the cycles one would have expected.


This is the credited response. I'm not at a T14, but Fordham is filled with Ivy grads, and I am fairly certain my UG was something I had to overcome in the course of my own cycle. Not only that, but it made hiring more difficult in certain situations. An insurmountable obstacle? Definitely not, but I would be remiss not to note that it made a difference and the school itself told me different UGs are viewed differently, depending on perceived rigor. The LSAT is "the great equalizer" for a reason. My score was far from amazing, but it was enough to show my school that I could do the work even though I had been a fashion student before law school.

In short, law schools tend to be familiar with certain UG curves. If you attend a well known UG, adcomms know what your GPA means, and I am aware that my school gives small boosts for rigorous UGs well outside the traditional HYP trifecta.

A non-famous state school will not hurt you, per se, but in a tie breaking situation, you will be at a competitive disadvantage with someone who went to, say, Dartmouth. I am not certain if all schools do this, or the rationale, but from what I have seen, many firms love prestigious UGs, so the schools may be maximizing their students' chances at OCI.

Total Litigator
Posts: 695
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:17 pm

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby Total Litigator » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:53 am

f7 wrote:In short, law schools might give a marginal fuck about UG institution, which doesn't remotely approximate a game-changer. Cue buseyclap.


Wonderful, I see you have made use of GoogleTranslate's "english to douche" function. A buseyclap to you as well sir.

User avatar
JDndMSW
Posts: 602
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:32 am

Re: Do law schools really care what school you attended for UG?

Postby JDndMSW » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:59 am

As a current student in the CSU system I would not recommend the schools. Since this is the only school I have really attended I guess I could just be smarter than I give myself credit for but they are stupid easy. Although this makes getting a 4.0 a breeze I am very worried about how unprepared I will be after graduation... Maybe it has to do with my major but I am able to drink like a sailor, watching plenty of TV, work a 20+ hour job, and come out with a 3.92 with 15 units...




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: patrickkpaul and 13 guests