Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

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vanwinkle
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:26 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
Veyron wrote:
AztecaRex wrote:This would be far more entertaining if I believed it to be true. Does anyone actually believe taxguy to be an overly zealous father hellbent on proving that ultimate frisbee trumps lsat score as a predictor of one's law school success rather than the obvious troll that he is?

I WANT to believe.

I believe. Helicopter parents are real, and this is tame compared to some.

aliarrow
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby aliarrow » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:33 pm

vanwinkle wrote:I believe. Helicopter parents are real, and this is tame compared to some.


+1. There are a lot of subtle nuances in the writing style that indicate this might be an actual parent, most trolls aren't that advanced to pull off advanced writing style alteration.

rose711
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby rose711 » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:49 pm

I believe too, and it makes me sad for his son. Taxguy, for your son's sake - back off. Let your son post here if he wants to. You are not doing him or yourself any favors posting here, though you are entertaining to read. I know you won't agree with me on this, but you need to step back. You aren't the one going to law school, if your son has questions about schools, let him ask them.

I wonder if your son believes as much as you do in the future that you are painting for him.

Back on topic, yes, I knew that the LSAT score is important for rankings. It is fairly common knowledge. Sorry that was such a surprise to you.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:15 pm

rose711 wrote:Back on topic, yes, I knew that the LSAT score is important for rankings. It is fairly common knowledge. Sorry that was such a surprise to you.

This, but OP's simplistic commentary also ignores the deeper issue, which is, why does it matter so much in the rankings? The OP fails to even consider if there's a reason the LSAT continues to be included by the rankings in the first place, the attitude seems to be that it's nearly arbitrary.

The truth is that the LSAT accomplishes a couple positive goals. First, before the LSAT became prominent, the two biggest admission factors were undergrad GPA and the prestige of your undergrad institution. In fact, from what I understand, UG institution was the largest factor at the top schools for a long time, and you basically had to have gone to an Ivy already to be considered. Moving to the LSAT provided a more merit-based primary element. This opened top law schools up to those from less prestigious UGs (and less prestigious backgrounds in general), at least to some extent. So there's the diversity advantage.

Second, the LSAT makes admissions more predictable. It's advantageous to students to be able to take a test and have a good idea based on that and their UGPA where they should apply. As much as people hate it when they don't do as well as they hoped, it's because the score means something about where they can go--which means they have that information up front, and can decide how or whether to proceed with admissions from there.

Third, it's a combination of learnable elements and useful predictors. Took it cold, and don't like how you did? Study and retake. It works, to an extent. Gains in the 10-20 point range are possible, meaning you can make improvements if you're really dedicated to going to law school. But at the same time, the "learnable elements" still require application of logical reasoning, problem-solving, and reading comprehension, which really are among the most valuable mental attributes to practicing law. If you can learn to do well on a test with those elements, you've probably got the potential to make a decent lawyer.

Yeah, it sucks for the guy who got a 160 and could've had a 175 with enough prep, who just didn't realize he could gain that much by studying. But on the whole it's a fairer and more standardized admissions factor than what it displaced, and there really is a difference between someone who can hit a 175 and someone stuck in the 140s.

On that last point, it's also a bragging right for schools. Harvard and Yale want to claim they have the smartest and most capable students, and LSAT is one way of showing the world that. There's an advantage for the top schools to the LSAT being in the rankings, because it does provide them a straightforward way to claim their students are, on the whole, the most likely to succeed in the legal world. Until they come up with a more straightforward way to do that, the LSAT will persist, because that's an important part of those schools' identity and ability to place students well everywhere.

Basically, there's reasons the LSAT is a good thing, and I'm not hearing any better alternatives. Until I do, I'll support the LSAT for what it is. And I say this as one of the ones who vastly outperformed their GPA/LSAT and proved it's not perfect. It doesn't have to be perfect, just better than everything else that's available.

09042014
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby 09042014 » Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:18 pm

Building on what VW says, what else is there?

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Veyron
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby Veyron » Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:36 pm

aliarrow wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:I believe. Helicopter parents are real, and this is tame compared to some.


+1. There are a lot of subtle nuances in the writing style that indicate this might be an actual parent, most trolls aren't that advanced to pull off advanced writing style alteration.


DESCRIBE said nuances.

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kwais
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby kwais » Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:48 pm

+1 to vanwinkle
My grandfather SIGNED UP for YLS in the 40's. As happy as I am for him, this system is better

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YourCaptain
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby YourCaptain » Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:52 pm

Why doesn't your son just start his own LSAT-less law school and make it #1?

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vanwinkle
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:04 am

YourCaptain wrote:Why doesn't your son just start his own LSAT-less law school and make it #1?

Watch it. For all you know, this could be the Cooley family you're talking to.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby FeelTheHeat » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:05 am

vanwinkle wrote:
YourCaptain wrote:Why doesn't your son just start his own LSAT-less law school and make it #1?

Watch it. For all you know, this could be the Cooley family you're talking to.


Given the parallels in methods of reasoning between the two, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

aliarrow
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby aliarrow » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:06 am

Veyron wrote:
aliarrow wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:I believe. Helicopter parents are real, and this is tame compared to some.


+1. There are a lot of subtle nuances in the writing style that indicate this might be an actual parent, most trolls aren't that advanced to pull off advanced writing style alteration.


DESCRIBE said nuances.


It just has a certain tone of parental seriousness and obliviousness that seems hard to fake. I can't really describe it any further, I wasn't an English major.

aliarrow
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby aliarrow » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:10 am

YourCaptain wrote:Why doesn't your son just start his own LSAT-less law school and make it #1?


Speaking of this, I was just thinking of a hypothetical the other night. What if someone started a new law school and only let in like 5 people and spent all funding on an epic library for the sole purpose of complete gaming of the rankings to compete with HYS? This schools mission wouldn't even be to make money (hence the 5 students), its sole reason for existence is elitism and to mess with USNWR. Of course, initially it would face obstacles in said goal due to the peer/lawyer/firm rating component.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby FeelTheHeat » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:12 am

I want to keep delivering the snark the OP deserves, but I just can't do it :/. Something about what aliarrow pointed out regarding the obliviousness of a father and how sincere his ridiculousness is. I'm off to find lawfreak, abusing him doesn't weigh nearly as much on my conscience.

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robotclubmember
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby robotclubmember » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:51 am

FeelTheHeat wrote:I want to keep delivering the snark the OP deserves, but I just can't do it :/. Something about what aliarrow pointed out regarding the obliviousness of a father and how sincere his ridiculousness is. I'm off to find lawfreak, abusing him doesn't weigh nearly as much on my conscience.


maximus. maximus the merciful.

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby Stringer Bell » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:01 am

vanwinkle wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
Veyron wrote:
AztecaRex wrote:This would be far more entertaining if I believed it to be true. Does anyone actually believe taxguy to be an overly zealous father hellbent on proving that ultimate frisbee trumps lsat score as a predictor of one's law school success rather than the obvious troll that he is?

I WANT to believe.

I believe. Helicopter parents are real, and this is tame compared to some.


No way. Ultimate frisbee is what really gives him away. There are plenty of parents like Taxguy, but I don't think many of them would find this site and post this diligently as well as somewhat coherently.

slacker
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby slacker » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:44 am

I remember a taxguy on college confidential years ago who talked about his sons. iirc, one didn't do so well gpa wise but got a job because he had an outstanding personality.

bornforlaw
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby bornforlaw » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:30 am

taxguy wrote:I just had an interesting conversation with two law school admission deans about the LSAT. We were discussing why it is used so strongly. Let's see if you can guess the main reason law schools put such a great emphasis on the LSAT and the undergrad GPA ( to a lessor extent) and pretty much ignore all post college activity. I will give you a trick question.

The main reason that the LSAT and GPA ( although slightly less a factor) is used in law school admission is:

A. Due to the great corelation between LSAT scores/GPA and law school performance.
B. Bragging rights to law firms so that more students get hired from those schools.
C. There really isn't a good way to determine who is qualified since schools have different majors and grading systems.Thus, It provides a standarized way to compare applicants.
D. It is required by the Bar Association.
E. Higher LSAT and admission standards encourage more alumni to donate money.

Think about each factor before you check the real, main reason.
Answer:




Although a bit of all of the above, the main reason is...drum roll.....
The Law School rankings! Yes, rankings! Every law school wants to raise their rankings desparately. Admission factors represent about 45% of the rankings,which is why the ranking change so much from year to year among mid tier schools. The average LSAT score has the biggest impact at 20%. The average GPA has a slightly lessor impact at 15% ( I think), which is why the GPA isn't as strongly weighted as the LSAT. Acceptance rate percentages is about 5%., which is why admission folks encourage applications for admission even if the student has little chance of success.

NOTE: I am not the one who said this. In fact, I would have never guessed this. This was told to me privately by two admission deans.



you guys should get off his back!!!! this is good stuff!!!!

aliarrow
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby aliarrow » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:37 am

bornforlaw wrote:
taxguy wrote:I just had an interesting conversation with two law school admission deans about the LSAT. We were discussing why it is used so strongly. Let's see if you can guess the main reason law schools put such a great emphasis on the LSAT and the undergrad GPA ( to a lessor extent) and pretty much ignore all post college activity. I will give you a trick question.

The main reason that the LSAT and GPA ( although slightly less a factor) is used in law school admission is:

A. Due to the great corelation between LSAT scores/GPA and law school performance.
B. Bragging rights to law firms so that more students get hired from those schools.
C. There really isn't a good way to determine who is qualified since schools have different majors and grading systems.Thus, It provides a standarized way to compare applicants.
D. It is required by the Bar Association.
E. Higher LSAT and admission standards encourage more alumni to donate money.

Think about each factor before you check the real, main reason.
Answer:




Although a bit of all of the above, the main reason is...drum roll.....
The Law School rankings! Yes, rankings! Every law school wants to raise their rankings desparately. Admission factors represent about 45% of the rankings,which is why the ranking change so much from year to year among mid tier schools. The average LSAT score has the biggest impact at 20%. The average GPA has a slightly lessor impact at 15% ( I think), which is why the GPA isn't as strongly weighted as the LSAT. Acceptance rate percentages is about 5%., which is why admission folks encourage applications for admission even if the student has little chance of success.

NOTE: I am not the one who said this. In fact, I would have never guessed this. This was told to me privately by two admission deans.



you guys should get off his back!!!! this is good stuff!!!!


So taxguy's son finally started an account, eh?

firemed
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby firemed » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:12 pm

aliarrow wrote:
bornforlaw wrote:

you guys should get off his back!!!! this is good stuff!!!!


So taxguy's son finally started an account, eh?



Or he has been forced to alt himself to find someone to agree with him.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:21 pm

"bornforlaw" was an alt, but not of "taxguy".

I say was instead of is for a reason.

aliarrow
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby aliarrow » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:24 pm

vanwinkle wrote:"bornforlaw" was an alt, but not of "taxguy".

I say was instead of is for a reason.


It seemed like a pretty short and lazy alt run, you were quick on that.

I do love this gem though:

If you want to work for a law firm you should go to georgetown because it is in washington (dc) and thus it can help you get into one because washington is where most law firms are

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acrossthelake
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby acrossthelake » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:57 pm

vanwinkle wrote:"bornforlaw" was an alt, but not of "taxguy".

I say was instead of is for a reason.


I especially love the part where bornforlaw argued with his alt.

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handlesthetruth
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Re: Why the LSAT is so important for law school admissions

Postby handlesthetruth » Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:52 am

aliarrow wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:"bornforlaw" was an alt, but not of "taxguy".

I say was instead of is for a reason.


It seemed like a pretty short and lazy alt run, you were quick on that.

I do love this gem though:

If you want to work for a law firm you should go to georgetown because it is in washington (dc) and thus it can help you get into one because washington is where most law firms are


ahh I had big plans for bornforlaw...:(
Sort of. It would have been entertaining for the 5 posts I had ideas for. And I actually "argued" with my alt so as to make sure no one took it seriously (re: so I wasn't destructive).

Apologies, though, TLS. And a swift catch by vanwinkle. Wow.




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