The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

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run26.2
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby run26.2 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:15 pm

dakatz wrote:Think of it from a cost/benefit perspective. Those who do 0L prep go in on the first day with a decent understanding of a few concepts. But the exam isn't given on the first day. The playing field levels immensely over the course of the semester. And come exam time, that 0L prep gives you no edge (im only referring to substantive prep btw, not learning about law school exams, which actually does help). So you invest so much effort in something that gives you likely no benefit at all with regard to edge at exam time.

The bolded is tcr to the question of what you should learn anything before getting to law school.

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Nicholasnickynic
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:17 pm

dakatz wrote:Think of it from a cost/benefit perspective. Those who do 0L prep go in on the first day with a decent understanding of a few concepts. But the exam isn't given on the first day. The playing field levels immensely over the course of the semester. And come exam time, that 0L prep gives you no edge (im only referring to substantive prep btw, not learning about law school exams, which actually does help). So you invest so much effort in something that gives you likely no benefit at all with regard to edge at exam time.



I read glannon's civ pro during the summer, did all the exercises.
Got the highest grade on civ pro exam.

And I attribute it directly to glannon (that's not to say my own hard work wasn't involved- but it would not have been possible w/o glannon. I already had a strong grasp on subject matter jurisdiction/ personal jursidiction on day 1 of that class, where as some people struggled with it all semester long.


That being said-
* Torts E&E - worthless. I covered intentional torts, class only covered negligent torts
* Crim Law E&E- Worthless. The little bits on the MPC didn't help, and he focused on statutes,
ignoring the common law.
* Contracts- worthless. Helped me learn consideration a little bit quicker, but thats it.

No matter your stance on substantive learning, I think it is very important to do LEEWS or GTM (although I prefer LEEWS) before school starts, along with reading some of an E&E and doing hypos.

Going in on day 1 I knew what was important and what was not important, and what the test would be like. In week 1 while people were spending 4 hours a day doing briefs, I was spending half that time doing hypos and outlining. Less time/more productive= win.

Did a lot of people catch up? I guess. But I loved knowly exactly what I needed to do from day 1.

Also, doing leews *correctly* takes like 20 hours. I think its a lot easier to get done during the summer.




TL;DR: Do GTM or Leews (preferably Leews) during the summer
Last edited by Nicholasnickynic on Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Veyron
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Veyron » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:17 pm

run26.2 wrote:
Veyron wrote:
dakatz wrote:Im not going to say that all prep is bad, but most is. Law school is all about going against the grain. If you don't, then it becomes tough to distinguish yourself. All the supposedly "smart" and gunnerish types will reach for supplements and prep books. This is your first chance to go against the grain and get a leg up. Im not saying don't prep, but do it right. Many things in law school are highly counterintuitive. So if it seems like its a smart method to grab some supplements and prep books, that should be a big red flag. You will understand what I mean eventually.


I agree that law school is about getting an edge but AT MINIMUM, you need to do what the average student is doing (which includes using supplements).

This is overstating the case. What "you need to do" is understand what the points the professor is trying to get across in class and apply the patterns of reasoning derived therefrom to different fact patterns. I got good grades in several courses in which I did not use supplements or used them merely to illuminate a concept that I did not fully grasp.

This is not to say that I didn't study. I did, but I spent a lot of time thinking about the shifts in the law and things the professor seemed to stress as gaps, implications, or points of interest particular to that professor. These may or may not show up in the supplements.

Overreliance on supplements is dangerous to say the least. It may mask a lack of knowledge of the law taught in your class. People should learn how to use them and also not be committed to what they teach, because a particular professor may see things differently.


I completely agree with you about over-reliance on supplements but you do need to use them as you described (i.e. to help you understand difficult points).

Varies by class and type of supplement. Farnsworth on contracts could replace your casebook, you would do fine on your exam if you read it and never cracked your assigned text. Other supplements are just gap-fillers.

I read glannon's civ pro during the summer, did all the exercises.
Got the highest grade on civ pro exam.


Civ pro was my worst class. Didn't read more than 1/3 of the Glannon. Go figure.

run26.2
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby run26.2 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:20 pm

Veyron wrote:
run26.2 wrote:
Veyron wrote:
dakatz wrote:Im not going to say that all prep is bad, but most is. Law school is all about going against the grain. If you don't, then it becomes tough to distinguish yourself. All the supposedly "smart" and gunnerish types will reach for supplements and prep books. This is your first chance to go against the grain and get a leg up. Im not saying don't prep, but do it right. Many things in law school are highly counterintuitive. So if it seems like its a smart method to grab some supplements and prep books, that should be a big red flag. You will understand what I mean eventually.


I agree that law school is about getting an edge but AT MINIMUM, you need to do what the average student is doing (which includes using supplements).

This is overstating the case. What "you need to do" is understand what the points the professor is trying to get across in class and apply the patterns of reasoning derived therefrom to different fact patterns. I got good grades in several courses in which I did not use supplements or used them merely to illuminate a concept that I did not fully grasp.

This is not to say that I didn't study. I did, but I spent a lot of time thinking about the shifts in the law and things the professor seemed to stress as gaps, implications, or points of interest particular to that professor. These may or may not show up in the supplements.

Overreliance on supplements is dangerous to say the least. It may mask a lack of knowledge of the law taught in your class. People should learn how to use them and also not be committed to what they teach, because a particular professor may see things differently.


I completely agree with you about over-reliance on supplements but you do need to use them as you described (i.e. to help you understand difficult points).

Varies by class and type of supplement. Farnsworth on contracts could replace your casebook, you would do fine on your exam if you read it and never cracked your assigned text. Other supplements are just gap-fillers.

In most classes there are no supplements that are as good (except perhaps Chemerinsky for Con Law, but that's more reading than the casebook, usually).

run26.2
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby run26.2 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:21 pm

Veyron wrote:
run26.2 wrote:
Veyron wrote:
dakatz wrote:Im not going to say that all prep is bad, but most is. Law school is all about going against the grain. If you don't, then it becomes tough to distinguish yourself. All the supposedly "smart" and gunnerish types will reach for supplements and prep books. This is your first chance to go against the grain and get a leg up. Im not saying don't prep, but do it right. Many things in law school are highly counterintuitive. So if it seems like its a smart method to grab some supplements and prep books, that should be a big red flag. You will understand what I mean eventually.


I agree that law school is about getting an edge but AT MINIMUM, you need to do what the average student is doing (which includes using supplements).

This is overstating the case. What "you need to do" is understand what the points the professor is trying to get across in class and apply the patterns of reasoning derived therefrom to different fact patterns. I got good grades in several courses in which I did not use supplements or used them merely to illuminate a concept that I did not fully grasp.

This is not to say that I didn't study. I did, but I spent a lot of time thinking about the shifts in the law and things the professor seemed to stress as gaps, implications, or points of interest particular to that professor. These may or may not show up in the supplements.

Overreliance on supplements is dangerous to say the least. It may mask a lack of knowledge of the law taught in your class. People should learn how to use them and also not be committed to what they teach, because a particular professor may see things differently.


I completely agree with you about over-reliance on supplements but you do need to use them as you described (i.e. to help you understand difficult points).

Varies by class and type of supplement. Farnsworth on contracts could replace your casebook, you would do fine on your exam if you read it and never cracked your assigned text. Other supplements are just gap-fillers.

I read glannon's civ pro during the summer, did all the exercises.
Got the highest grade on civ pro exam.


Civ pro was my worst class. Didn't read more than 1/3 of the Glannon. Go figure.

I think Freer's supplement was better than Glannon, although Glannon was good.

I need to meet you one day so I know which classes to stay out of since you're gunning so hard.

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Veyron
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Veyron » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:34 pm

[/quote]

I agree that law school is about getting an edge but AT MINIMUM, you need to do what the average student is doing (which includes using supplements).[/quote]
This is overstating the case. What "you need to do" is understand what the points the professor is trying to get across in class and apply the patterns of reasoning derived therefrom to different fact patterns. I got good grades in several courses in which I did not use supplements or used them merely to illuminate a concept that I did not fully grasp.

This is not to say that I didn't study. I did, but I spent a lot of time thinking about the shifts in the law and things the professor seemed to stress as gaps, implications, or points of interest particular to that professor. These may or may not show up in the supplements.

Overreliance on supplements is dangerous to say the least. It may mask a lack of knowledge of the law taught in your class. People should learn how to use them and also not be committed to what they teach, because a particular professor may see things differently.[/quote]

I completely agree with you about over-reliance on supplements but you do need to use them as you described (i.e. to help you understand difficult points).

Varies by class and type of supplement. Farnsworth on contracts could replace your casebook, you would do fine on your exam if you read it and never cracked your assigned text. Other supplements are just gap-fillers.

I read glannon's civ pro during the summer, did all the exercises.
Got the highest grade on civ pro exam.


Civ pro was my worst class. Didn't read more than 1/3 of the Glannon. Go figure.[/quote]
I think Freer's supplement was better than Glannon, although Glannon was good.

I need to meet you one day so I know which classes to stay out of since you're gunning so hard.



Only gunned hard first semester, this semester I'm trying to gun less hard and more smart. We shall see what is more effective. I wouldn't be too worried about staying out of my classes, if you are coming to Penn you have far more formidable opponents than me to worry about.

I gather that you are a transfer from your post. No one guns 2L year anyway. However I do know of people who were top 5% at some T2 and come here and just get steamrolled. It really gives you some appreciation for why people care about school ranking so much.

Alternatively, the many transfers gun hard because they have more to prove. My advice is to take OCI very very seriously, research the firms, spend the summer on interview prep, get a job, and then just chill the fuck out and enjoy being at Penn.

That being said, I'm always down for a beer with classmates. Shoot me a PM in the fall.

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kapachino
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby kapachino » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:16 pm

Veyron wrote:
Thanks Veyron for addressing this over-enthusiasm that 0Ls seem to have about LS.

As a 0L, I for one will not me doing any of this. It's ridiculous to read books you will probably be assigned, just to forget it all, remember the parts that aren't important, and then have to reread the info again. Here's to a summer of vacation/drinking/lounging on the beach and hiking mountains.


You will not be assigned any of these books as required reading. Profs HATE to assign books that give you the BLL.

I would venture to suggest that if these particular 0Ls have taken the LSAT, they should apply to those law school preview programs that different law schools offer in the summer. You do the work and get to see what it's like to be a 1L. That might actually give you an edge over incoming 1Ls who didn't attend a program.


This is a terrible idea and will not help you one bit with your grades. Now, if you got offered one of these for free through an affinity group (your UGs pre-law association for example) and the event involves interaction with actual practitioners then it could be good for networking.



The fact that you call this an event tells me you don't know what it is. They're 4-6 week programs, several of which are geared to help low-income minority students get ready for law school. I know people who have done it and said it helped them familiarize themselves with the material and study methods quite a bit. I know this thread is meant for mocking excited 0Ls and circle jerking because you think that you're somehow superior, but I thought it would be nice to post a resource that could help someone out. The rest is just petty insecure bullshit.

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northwood
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby northwood » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:18 pm

DeeCee wrote::lol: :lol:

Thanks Veyron for addressing this over-enthusiasm that 0Ls seem to have about LS.

As a 0L, I for one will not me doing any of this. It's ridiculous to read books you will probably be assigned, just to forget it all, remember the parts that aren't important, and then have to reread the info again. Here's to a summer of vacation/drinking/lounging on the beach and hiking mountains.



THIS IS THE CREDITED AND BEST ADVICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DC IS A ROCKSTAR!!!!!!!!!!!

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Nicholasnickynic
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:23 pm

northwood wrote:
DeeCee wrote::lol: :lol:

Thanks Veyron for addressing this over-enthusiasm that 0Ls seem to have about LS.

As a 0L, I for one will not me doing any of this. It's ridiculous to read books you will probably be assigned, just to forget it all, remember the parts that aren't important, and then have to reread the info again. Here's to a summer of vacation/drinking/lounging on the beach and hiking mountains.



THIS IS THE CREDITED AND BEST ADVICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DC IS A ROCKSTAR!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's to a summer of vacation/drinking/lounging on the beach and hiking mountains. Once you enter law school, you will only be able to do 1 of those for the rest of your life (assuming you don't go PI/Gov't). If that stuff means that much to you, I hope you don't plan on going biglaw.

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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby paulinaporizkova » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:24 pm

lolzzz

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northwood
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby northwood » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:25 pm

i think its time to crack open a beer

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DeeCee
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby DeeCee » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:14 pm

Nicholasnickynic wrote:
northwood wrote:
DeeCee wrote::lol: :lol:

Thanks Veyron for addressing this over-enthusiasm that 0Ls seem to have about LS.

As a 0L, I for one will not me doing any of this. It's ridiculous to read books you will probably be assigned, just to forget it all, remember the parts that aren't important, and then have to reread the info again. Here's to a summer of vacation/drinking/lounging on the beach and hiking mountains.



THIS IS THE CREDITED AND BEST ADVICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DC IS A ROCKSTAR!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's to a summer of vacation/drinking/lounging on the beach and hiking mountains. Once you enter law school, you will only be able to do 1 of those for the rest of your life (assuming you don't go PI/Gov't). If that stuff means that much to you, I hope you don't plan on going biglaw.


Actually I don't plan to go into biglaw whatsoever; I detest it. I plan to do PI. And, I will be under relatively minimal debt, so it will be OK with me if I make a meager salary. But anyway, if you pay attention to the point of Veyron's post, he's telling us to take off the summer, rather than overextend ourselves. I'm not sure why you are downing me wanting to have a good time this summer.

SupraVln180
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby SupraVln180 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:43 pm

DeeCee wrote:
Nicholasnickynic wrote:
northwood wrote:
DeeCee wrote::lol: :lol:

Thanks Veyron for addressing this over-enthusiasm that 0Ls seem to have about LS.

As a 0L, I for one will not me doing any of this. It's ridiculous to read books you will probably be assigned, just to forget it all, remember the parts that aren't important, and then have to reread the info again. Here's to a summer of vacation/drinking/lounging on the beach and hiking mountains.



THIS IS THE CREDITED AND BEST ADVICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DC IS A ROCKSTAR!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's to a summer of vacation/drinking/lounging on the beach and hiking mountains. Once you enter law school, you will only be able to do 1 of those for the rest of your life (assuming you don't go PI/Gov't). If that stuff means that much to you, I hope you don't plan on going biglaw.


Actually I don't plan to go into biglaw whatsoever; I detest it. I plan to do PI. And, I will be under relatively minimal debt, so it will be OK with me if I make a meager salary. But anyway, if you pay attention to the point of Veyron's post, he's telling us to take off the summer, rather than overextend ourselves. I'm not sure why you are downing me wanting to have a good time this summer.


Fuck it. I'm gunning.

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DeeCee
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby DeeCee » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:44 pm

SupraVln180 wrote:
Fuck it. I'm gunning.


this must be opposites night! lol. I also wrote you back on that American vs. Wake thread

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beachbum
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby beachbum » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:56 pm

Or, on the flip-side, you could spend your summer scheming up new and creative ways to fuck with your classmates during finals week.

Sabotage FTW?

run26.2
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby run26.2 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:06 pm

Veyron wrote:That being said, I'm always down for a beer with classmates. Shoot me a PM in the fall.

I thought you weren't gunning? There are 3 more weeks before finals, brosef.
Last edited by run26.2 on Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Verity
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Verity » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:13 pm

tag

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afc1910
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby afc1910 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:00 pm

...
Last edited by afc1910 on Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Veyron
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Veyron » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:02 pm

run26.2 wrote:
Veyron wrote:That being said, I'm always down for a beer with classmates. Shoot me a PM in the fall.

I thought you weren't gunning? There are 3 more weeks before finals, brosef.


I meant next fall, duh. Haven't been to a bar in a month.

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sanjola
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby sanjola » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:18 pm

introversional wrote:I would never tag this page.


+1

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Rooney
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Rooney » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:30 pm

Veyron wrote:I've seen many posts here about law school admits who want to get a "jump" on their competition over the fall. They have been given the advice over and over to just chill because they know that you can't possibly have the work ethic to do the prep that would actually be useful as a 0L. Yet you refuse to listen.

At that point some well meaning law student tries to trick them by suggesting that they read getting to maybe. Ahah! The law student thinks, this is something that will make them feel productive but still give them a lot of free time. However, some of you 0Ls wont shut up, you think there is some simple trick to get the jump on your competition. Then you guys start debating what other books about law school will give you the edge. After a summer of intellectual masturbation, you then arrive at school having done nothing useful.

In the vein of being careful what you wish for, here is a prep curriculum that would actually GIVE you an edge if it didn't burn you the fuck out (which it would, which is why all us -somewhat- seasoned law students recommend R and R).

To read:

GTM (yes, just because the motive was impure, doesn't mean the advice was bad)
Farnsworth on Contracts
Constitutional Law: Principles and Policies
Glannon E&E Civ-Pro
Glannon E&E Torts (although the BLL in torts is easy so this is prob a waste of time)


To do:

On all papers from now on where your professor gives you an option of what citation form to use, use the bluebook. 1Ls never have more than a day or so to study for the writing competition. Legal writing instructors don't really care if you bluebook properly if the class is PF and you won't have the time to do it anyway. Coming in with a working knowledge of how our citation system works would probably put you at a significant advantage in the writing competition.

Civ-Pro E&E practice problems

Read outlines on your schools outline bank for your first semester courses once you figure out who your prof is (if you have access, many schools don't password protect these). At least 3 for each prof should be read since all outlines contain some errors and some are incomplete/bad.

BONUS!: Obtain access to your schools exam database (how is up to you - keep it legal). Read several model answers to exams for each class before doing any prep. Your efficiency will increase by 1000%.



There, that's 3 homework assignments and 4000 pages of reading to do before you get to law school. It will give you all the BLL you need for Ks and give you the same ideas about policy that your professor has. Dito for Constitutional Law (except for the changes in the law since 2006 of which there are a few). It will also teach you much of the BLL in Civ-Pro and help you make sense of the class much more easily. It will also teach you what YOUR prof thinks is important. It may even save you some time in Torts.

I sincerely hope this helps you fools.


This won't be enough for me. There isn't any Bar prep in there! :mrgreen:

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Veyron
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Veyron » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:54 pm

I literally cannot believe that this thread is still alive.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby JusticeHarlan » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:57 pm

Veyron wrote:I literally cannot believe that this thread is still alive.

I was gonna toss in an "obvious troll is obvious" meme, but I guess your humor is too subtle for some.

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Veyron
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Veyron » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:01 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:
Veyron wrote:I literally cannot believe that this thread is still alive.

I was gonna toss in an "obvious troll is obvious" meme, but I guess your humor is too subtle for some.


A trolling implies some attempt at deception, I put everything up front in the OP.

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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Moxie » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:02 pm

Veyron wrote:I worked 90-115 hours a week for the last 2 months of last semester. I like to go at a slow pace with my work but if you aren't at 70+ you aren't trying. The reason that I'm on TLS so often is that the only time I take a break is to post or read a newspaper online or something. If you look through my posting history you will see posts at 4-5:00 in the morning fairly often.


How did the thread not die after this post? :lol:




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