The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

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Veyron
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Veyron » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:17 pm

DeSimone wrote:What exactly do you mean by "impure motives" in the context of GTM?


Throwing you a bone so you stop asking how you can prep for 1L

Oh, my bad. I thought the idea was to suggest every single stupid, pointless thing out there a 0L can do during the summer in order to give yourself a false impression that you actually have a leg up on everyone else once classes start.


No, IF you could do all of this without getting burned out before classes start you would actually ace 1L year because you would have a solid context to place your readings in (1/2 the battle) and know what was going to be important for exams from day 1 (the other 1/2).

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MrKappus
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby MrKappus » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:20 pm

I just love the fact that 0L's will read this and actually do it. Such a grand, grand waste of one of your last free summers.

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traehekat
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby traehekat » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:22 pm

Veyron wrote:No, IF you could do all of this without getting burned out before classes start you would actually ace 1L year because you would have a solid context to place your readings in (1/2 the battle) and know what was going to be important for exams from day 1 (the other 1/2).


and yet, somehow, students manage to ace classes without doing any of this.

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Veyron
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Veyron » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:24 pm

traehekat wrote:
Veyron wrote:No, IF you could do all of this without getting burned out before classes start you would actually ace 1L year because you would have a solid context to place your readings in (1/2 the battle) and know what was going to be important for exams from day 1 (the other 1/2).


and yet, somehow, students manage to ace classes without doing any of this.


Necessary v.s. sufficient my friend. Also, you will find that the people who ace classes without doing insane shit are the people that are just really fucking smart. If you got a 180 on the LSAT you can probably go out 3 nights a week during most of 1L and still be fine.

The dirty secret is that law school tests two things (1) innate intelligence [of the type that the LSAT tests] (2) work ethic. The more you have of the first relative to your classmates, the less you need of the second; its a sliding scale.

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traehekat
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby traehekat » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:29 pm

Veyron wrote:
traehekat wrote:
Veyron wrote:No, IF you could do all of this without getting burned out before classes start you would actually ace 1L year because you would have a solid context to place your readings in (1/2 the battle) and know what was going to be important for exams from day 1 (the other 1/2).


and yet, somehow, students manage to ace classes without doing any of this.


Necessary v.s. sufficient my friend. Also, you will find that the people who ace classes without doing insane shit are the people that are just really fucking smart. If you got a 180 on the LSAT you can probably go out 3 nights a week during most of 1L and still be fine.


0L prep is neither necessary nor sufficient.

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Veyron
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Veyron » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:33 pm

traehekat wrote:
Veyron wrote:
traehekat wrote:
Veyron wrote:No, IF you could do all of this without getting burned out before classes start you would actually ace 1L year because you would have a solid context to place your readings in (1/2 the battle) and know what was going to be important for exams from day 1 (the other 1/2).


and yet, somehow, students manage to ace classes without doing any of this.


Necessary v.s. sufficient my friend. Also, you will find that the people who ace classes without doing insane shit are the people that are just really fucking smart. If you got a 180 on the LSAT you can probably go out 3 nights a week during most of 1L and still be fine.


0L prep is neither necessary nor sufficient.


Maybe not sufficient but if you had reasonable intelligence it would be enough to give you a huge advantage. You get to drown in BLL which will shave months off learning what is important in cases, how could that not help

"hey, the tiers of scrutiny were discussed for 100000 pages in that Constitutional Law book Veyron told me to read, I guess I CAN'T skip the footnotes in Caroline Products." "Is Lochner good law, not in the slightest, guess I can skip that case and just read the notes to review the policy considerations I already absorbed from the Treatise"
Last edited by Veyron on Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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traehekat
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby traehekat » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:37 pm

All I'm saying is that there is plenty of time during 1L to do all the work you need to do in order to perform well on exams. I mean, hell, if you do all this during the summer (or as much of it as you can), what exactly are you going to do during the semester with all the time you are not reading supplements? Play COD? There is a time and place for that, I think it's called... summer?

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Veyron
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Veyron » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:38 pm

traehekat wrote:All I'm saying is that there is plenty of time during 1L to do all the work you need to do in order to perform well on exams. I mean, hell, if you do all this during the summer (or as much of it as you can), what exactly are you going to do during the semester with all the time you are not reading supplements? Play COD? There is a time and place for that, I think it's called... summer?


Do your reading, take more practice exams, OUTLINE.

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gothamm
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby gothamm » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:44 pm

what a twisted derogatory yet kind of helpful post.

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beachbum
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby beachbum » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:45 pm

Beachbum's summer plan to success:

Read Getting to Maybe and Guerrilla Tactics
Work ahead on summer job apps (research firms, draft generic cover letters, tweak resume)
Get settled in at my new place, explore my new city and campus
Buy a suit or two, and maybe some new clothes
Drink

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Veyron
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Veyron » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:49 pm

beachbum wrote:Beachbum's summer plan to success:

Read Getting to Maybe and Guerrilla Tactics
Work ahead on summer job apps (research firms, draft generic cover letters, tweak resume)
Get settled in at my new place, explore my new city and campus
Buy a suit or two, and maybe some new clothes
Drink


If you don't already know 90% the very basic stuff in Guerrilla Tactics, you better crush 1L and OCI because will never network your way to a job. Replace with MOAR drinking. You can call it networking if it makes you feel better about slacking.

dakatz
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby dakatz » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:52 pm

It makes me halfway sad to think how many 0Ls wont realize that this is largely a joke at their expense

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beachbum
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby beachbum » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:54 pm

Veyron wrote:
beachbum wrote:Beachbum's summer plan to success:

Read Getting to Maybe and Guerrilla Tactics
Work ahead on summer job apps (research firms, draft generic cover letters, tweak resume)
Get settled in at my new place, explore my new city and campus
Buy a suit or two, and maybe some new clothes
Drink


If you don't already know 90% the very basic stuff in Guerrilla Tactics, you better crush 1L and OCI because will never network your way to a job. Replace with MOAR drinking. You can call it networking if it makes you feel better about slacking.


haha, fair enough. I see it get recommended around here every once in a while, so I figured I would give it a read with all the free time I'm gonna have. But if it's just common sense, then more drinking it is.

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gothamm
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby gothamm » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:55 pm

dakatz wrote:It makes me halfway sad to think how many 0Ls wont realize that this is largely a joke at their expense


call me naive, but I still thing 0L prep is worth it. If anything, I will have already had some kind of emotional investment due to the work i did over 0L summer. Whatever man, it won't hurt. Worst case is that I may have wasted a few months.

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DeeCee
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby DeeCee » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:55 pm

Beachbum's DeeCee's summer plan to success:

Read Getting to Maybe if I'm bored and Guerrilla Tactics
Work ahead on summer job apps (research firms, draft generic cover letters, tweak resume)
Get settled in at my new place, explore my new city and campus
Buy a suit or two, and maybe some new clothes
Drink

Overall Beachbum, I think your list was good, but I already had the suits, did the resume, and I have no idea what Guerrilla Tactics is.

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introversional
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby introversional » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:57 pm

I would never tag this page.

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Nicholasnickynic
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:58 pm

LEEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dakatz
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby dakatz » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:00 pm

Im not going to say that all prep is bad, but most is. Law school is all about going against the grain. If you don't, then it becomes tough to distinguish yourself. All the supposedly "smart" and gunnerish types will reach for supplements and prep books. This is your first chance to go against the grain and get a leg up. Im not saying don't prep, but do it right. Many things in law school are highly counterintuitive. So if it seems like its a smart method to grab some supplements and prep books, that should be a big red flag. You will understand what I mean eventually.

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Veyron
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Veyron » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:01 pm

dakatz wrote:Im not going to say that all prep is bad, but most is. Law school is all about going against the grain. If you don't, then it becomes tough to distinguish yourself. All the supposedly "smart" and gunnerish types will reach for supplements and prep books. This is your first chance to go against the grain and get a leg up. Im not saying don't prep, but do it right. Many things in law school are highly counterintuitive. So if it seems like its a smart method to grab some supplements and prep books, that should be a big red flag. You will understand what I mean eventually.


I agree that law school is about getting an edge but AT MINIMUM, you need to do what the average student is doing (which includes using supplements DURING 1L).

dakatz
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby dakatz » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:08 pm

Think of it from a cost/benefit perspective. Those who do 0L prep go in on the first day with a decent understanding of a few concepts. But the exam isn't given on the first day. The playing field levels immensely over the course of the semester. And come exam time, that 0L prep gives you no edge (im only referring to substantive prep btw, not learning about law school exams, which actually does help). So you invest so much effort in something that gives you likely no benefit at all with regard to edge at exam time.

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DrackedaryMaster
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby DrackedaryMaster » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:09 pm

As a 0L, my take I'm getting from everyone is that 1L prepping is useless. Reading all those books (other than GTM) is also useless. I think GTM is good for learning the basis of how to take a law school exam.(i.e. application of facts/law).

How about this approach? It seems a law school exam is one super-ultra-mega clusterf* model of a LG. On the LG, you have rules that you have to apply to variables given certain conditions (facts). Maybe one should try to come up with a logic game with 20+ variables/individuals, 10+rules, and start asking only "could be true" questions, and rather than making them multiple choice questions, write the rules to your LG in a way that makes it uncertain whether the rule prevents it or not, or if it another rule applies or not and where multiple variables can be effected differently or the same by the certain rules and why. Do this with another 0L gunner friend, write your essay answer within an hour and compare.

If you can master this, then you shouldn't feel as much pressure come exam time. BLL replaces the "rules" and whatever f* up scenario the professor gives is replacing the facts and the professor's "could be true" question.

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Veyron
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Veyron » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:10 pm

dakatz wrote:Think of it from a cost/benefit perspective. Those who do 0L prep go in on the first day with a decent understanding of a few concepts. But the exam isn't given on the first day. The playing field levels immensely over the course of the semester. And come exam time, that 0L prep gives you no edge (im only referring to substantive prep btw, not learning about law school exams, which actually does help). So you invest so much effort in something that gives you likely no benefit at all with regard to edge at exam time.


The edge is not in learning the material, that's a 0L perspective. The edge is that it allows you to learn the material more efficiently once you start school

How about this approach? It seems a law school exam is one super-ultra-mega clusterf* model of a LG. On the LG, you have rules that you have to apply to variables given certain conditions (facts). Maybe one should try to come up with a logic game with 20+ variables/individuals, 10+rules, and start asking only "could be true" questions, and rather than making them multiple choice questions, write the rules to your LG in a way that makes it uncertain whether the rule prevents it or not, or if it another rule applies or not and where multiple variables can be effected differently or the same by the certain rules and why. Do this with another 0L gunner friend, write your essay answer within an hour and compare.


(a) there are books that have already done this, they are called E & Es?
(b) why not just get access to the exam bank and practice on REAL exams? You don't know enough right now to make your own, guaranteed. By the end of the summer you MIGHT be ready to try a practice test. You'll do horribly, but its better to learn what you are doing wrong at that time than when you take your first practice exam around thanksgiving.
Last edited by Veyron on Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BlueDiamond
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby BlueDiamond » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:12 pm

0L here.. I'm planning on working over the summer but not doing any law school prep whatsoever.. but I do want to buy my supplements over the summer so I do not have to worry about that aspect when I get to school. main thing is I have no idea which supplements are the best and it seems like there are tons of options.. would the supplements you listed in the OP be what some of you that have experience with 1L and are posting would recommend? I'd like to only have to buy 1 or 2 supplements per class if possible

run26.2
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby run26.2 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:13 pm

Veyron wrote:
dakatz wrote:Im not going to say that all prep is bad, but most is. Law school is all about going against the grain. If you don't, then it becomes tough to distinguish yourself. All the supposedly "smart" and gunnerish types will reach for supplements and prep books. This is your first chance to go against the grain and get a leg up. Im not saying don't prep, but do it right. Many things in law school are highly counterintuitive. So if it seems like its a smart method to grab some supplements and prep books, that should be a big red flag. You will understand what I mean eventually.


I agree that law school is about getting an edge but AT MINIMUM, you need to do what the average student is doing (which includes using supplements).

This is overstating the case. What "you need to do" is understand what the points the professor is trying to get across in class and apply the patterns of reasoning derived therefrom to different fact patterns. I got good grades in several courses in which I did not use supplements or used them merely to illuminate a concept that I did not fully grasp.

This is not to say that I didn't study. I did, but I spent a lot of time thinking about the shifts in the law and things the professor seemed to stress as gaps, implications, or points of interest particular to that professor. These may or may not show up in the supplements.

Overreliance on supplements is dangerous to say the least. It may mask a lack of knowledge of the law taught in your class. People should learn how to use them and also not be committed to what they teach, because a particular professor may see things differently.

FiveSermon
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Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby FiveSermon » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:13 pm

I would burnout for sure.




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