The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
User avatar
uzpakalis
Posts: 319
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:36 pm

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby uzpakalis » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:08 pm

I suggest reading GTM over the summer. And then skimming it again about halfway through your 1st semester. Read Arrow's guide to success in law school (probably the best advice you will find about succeeding in law school). Good luck.

User avatar
LeDique
Posts: 12689
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:10 pm

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby LeDique » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:13 pm

dakatz wrote:
nodummy wrote:
Always Credited wrote:
dakatz wrote:[b]calling alumni of their schools and networking as much as possible and as often as possible, becoming better and faster at typing, taking time to reflect on themselves and not going into law school blindly, reading every "success in law school" thread they can find to gather all the helpful info available, etc. These are the things that come before substantive preparation that will likely go to waste. The above things are GUARANTEED to help you in law school, and they should absolutely take priority. These things will be what give you guys the advantage over the "smart" kids who blindly reach for the prep books.[/b]


Can anyone calrify this point (see bold text)? Do you recommend just calling alumni and introducing yourself as a future 1L? Or what's the best way to go about this? Thanks.


I typically send out emails to alumni in which I mention that I will be attending their school. I tell them how I love hearing from alumni to hear about their experiences at the school and in the legal profession, and find out if they have any pointers or advice. Sometimes I don't get responses, but those who get back to me are usually happy to speak with me and chat about their experience. Lawyers spend all day doing work and under stress so I think they appreciate a few minutes to reminisce about their law school years, and a chance to help out students. They would often give me their phone numbers and we would set up a time to chat. Sometimes my calls would go for 10 minutes, and sometimes an hour. I follow up with emails to those I become friendly with. This is the kind of thing that nearly no gunner will think to do. So when exam time rolls around and everyone is applying to jobs, you just might get lucky and have a contact pull some strings for you, or at least put in a good word for you. By virtue of this, you will have more time to study for exams. Unlike 0L prep, which is questionable at best, having more time to take practice exams is THE BEST way to improve your grades. So anything that will clear your plate come exam time should be your top priority.


Any specific way you identified alumni to e-mail?

aliarrow
Posts: 886
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:08 pm

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby aliarrow » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:18 pm

Anecdotal but...

I just asked my employer (a small firm lawyer who runs the firm) about e-mail alumni and he said a pretty hasty "No.". His response was that he gets lots of those types of emails from 2Ls or whatever and he's just way too busy to deal with someone who might be interested in working with him several years down the road.

But I know this approach is different and attempting to ask more about the school and his/her experience at X law school hopefully might elicit slightly more positive results...

dakatz
Posts: 2460
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:19 pm

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby dakatz » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:21 pm

Two ways. First, you go to any individual firm's website, and it usually lets you search attorneys based on where they went to school. You can usually search based on numerous criteria (if you are searching amongst large firm attorneys), so I could pick out attorneys who work in the offices close to where I want to practice, who work in the practice areas I'm interest in, etc. And each person's individual profile of course has contact info listed.

Another way is martindale.com. This is a great resource that allows you to search both law firms and individuals. You can search individuals by region, where they went to school, etc. It will give you a big list of alumni, and you can email them directly through the site.

And the post above me makes a good point: DO NOT email the partners or people who have been out for awhile. They will be much more busy and less likely to help on average. Target the young associates who are just out of school and can more relate to you and your experiences. They will very keenly remember the pain of 1L and will be more open to helping you out.

User avatar
rmjones03
Posts: 47
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:40 pm

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby rmjones03 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:35 pm

Thanks for the advice dakatz!!

User avatar
TTH
Posts: 10378
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 1:14 am

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby TTH » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:36 am

This thread brings the laughs.

aliarrow
Posts: 886
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:08 pm

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby aliarrow » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:38 pm

Meh.... You aren't a true gunner until you've regularly attended 1L classes for a year, as a 0L.

paulinaporizkova
Posts: 2494
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:25 pm

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby paulinaporizkova » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:47 pm

aliarrow wrote:Meh.... You aren't a true gunner until you've regularly attended 1L classes for a year, as a 0L.

lulz. please tell me no one actually does this, although i'm betting your answer will say otherwise

User avatar
DallasCowboy
Posts: 650
Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:47 am

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby DallasCowboy » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:51 pm

didn't read the thread, but learn the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.

User avatar
swc65
Posts: 1003
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:27 am

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby swc65 » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:06 pm

Cupidity wrote:Don't study a damn thing until mid-November. It is easier to learn things correctly once than to unlearn all the unnecessary bullshit you picked up preparing over the summer. Only invest time in supplements once you have been in class long enough to understand the scope of the syllabus and your professors specific inclinations.



This is so true. Other than reading for class, you should be doing nothing until the last month before the exam. Most of the shit won't even make sense until then. Doing a ton of extra work will just get in the way of a true Socratic experience where you and your professor share one mind.

ok the Socratic thing is mostly BS, but seriously dont do work until late in the semester. It won't be until then that you have any real idea of what's going on, what the professor is looking for, and how all the shit you have stuffed into your head fits together.

User avatar
dpase22
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:28 am

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby dpase22 » Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:42 pm

Veyron wrote:I've seen many posts here about law school admits who want to get a "jump" on their competition over the fall.

...

To read:

GTM ...
Farnsworth on Contracts
Constitutional Law: Principles and Policies
Glannon E&E Civ-Pro
Glannon E&E Torts (although the BLL in torts is easy so this is prob a waste of time)


To do:

...

BONUS!: Obtain access to your schools exam database (how is up to you - keep it legal). Read several model answers to exams for each class before doing any prep. Your efficiency will increase by 1000%.



...

I sincerely hope this helps you fools.


[Disclaimer: this is a lowly 0L writing]

The OP's recommendations listed above are verified by a number of CCN 2Ls that I spoke to at length on ASWs. The advice they gave, once I had spoken to each at length, was almost exactly* what is listed above.

* no mention was made of Con Law prep

The common theme of these discussions was that the most important thing is TAKING PRACTICE EXAMS. If you can go through the E&Es early, then you will learn the class materials more quickly, outline more coherently, etc., and then take practice tests sooner and in greater number.

Sounds worth it to me, but I have no experience with which to verify these statements myself.

User avatar
drmguy
Posts: 1016
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:43 am

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby drmguy » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:43 am

dpase22 wrote:
Veyron wrote:I've seen many posts here about law school admits who want to get a "jump" on their competition over the fall.

...

To read:

GTM ...
Farnsworth on Contracts
Constitutional Law: Principles and Policies
Glannon E&E Civ-Pro
Glannon E&E Torts (although the BLL in torts is easy so this is prob a waste of time)


To do:

...

BONUS!: Obtain access to your schools exam database (how is up to you - keep it legal). Read several model answers to exams for each class before doing any prep. Your efficiency will increase by 1000%.



...

I sincerely hope this helps you fools.


[Disclaimer: this is a lowly 0L writing]

The OP's recommendations listed above are verified by a number of CCN 2Ls that I spoke to at length on ASWs. The advice they gave, once I had spoken to each at length, was almost exactly* what is listed above.

* no mention was made of Con Law prep

The common theme of these discussions was that the most important thing is TAKING PRACTICE EXAMS. If you can go through the E&Es early, then you will learn the class materials more quickly, outline more coherently, etc., and then take practice tests sooner and in greater number.

Sounds worth it to me, but I have no experience with which to verify these statements myself.


If 0L prep is used to learn general concepts and to get familiar with the subject could it really hurt?

BlueDiamond
Posts: 953
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby BlueDiamond » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:53 am

DallasCowboy wrote:didn't read the thread, but learn the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.


so I looked at the FRCP after you wrote this just to see exactly what I'd be dealing with if I were to learn it.. first I'm leaving it for when I actually start 1L because half of it looks like another language, but then again I'm also not very smart.. but, second I laughed when I read the very first rule about just, speedy, and inexpensive proceedings while thinking about biglaw where it can often be unjust, take years/decades, and cost massive amounts of money

User avatar
Veyron
Posts: 3598
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:50 am

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Veyron » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:54 am

dpase22 wrote:
Veyron wrote:I've seen many posts here about law school admits who want to get a "jump" on their competition over the fall.

...

To read:

GTM ...
Farnsworth on Contracts
Constitutional Law: Principles and Policies
Glannon E&E Civ-Pro
Glannon E&E Torts (although the BLL in torts is easy so this is prob a waste of time)


To do:

...

BONUS!: Obtain access to your schools exam database (how is up to you - keep it legal). Read several model answers to exams for each class before doing any prep. Your efficiency will increase by 1000%.



...

I sincerely hope this helps you fools.


[Disclaimer: this is a lowly 0L writing]

The OP's recommendations listed above are verified by a number of CCN 2Ls that I spoke to at length on ASWs. The advice they gave, once I had spoken to each at length, was almost exactly* what is listed above.

* no mention was made of Con Law prep

The common theme of these discussions was that the most important thing is TAKING PRACTICE EXAMS. If you can go through the E&Es early, then you will learn the class materials more quickly, outline more coherently, etc., and then take practice tests sooner and in greater number.

Sounds worth it to me, but I have no experience with which to verify these statements myself.


The most important thing is not TAKING pracitce exams, thats letting the great be the enemy of the good. The most important thing is READING old model answers to practice exams.

User avatar
dpase22
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:28 am

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby dpase22 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:37 pm

Veyron wrote:The most important thing is not TAKING pracitce exams, thats letting the great be the enemy of the good. The most important thing is READING old model answers to practice exams.

Just want to verify that I have synthesized this accurately:

1) 0L recommended preliminary* prep includes READING practice exams with model answers (preferably from prospective profs)
2) 1L early-semester prep would include READING old practice exams with model answers (from your specific prof and others)
3) 1L mid-semester prep includes TAKING practice exams and comparing your answers to model answers

*before engaging with E&Es

kublaikahn
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:47 am

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby kublaikahn » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:25 am

.
Last edited by kublaikahn on Tue May 17, 2011 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Beestinga
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Beestinga » Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:32 am

I'm going to spend the summer brushing up on my Spanish and trying to get back into the habit of reading. I've been out of college for a few years and haven't read a book in...well...a while. Going to start reading my issues of the economist cover to cover each week and doing an hour or two of Spanish study/practice per night.
Won't give me any kind of law school fundamentals, but will hopefully get me (I won't say back, because I never really studied in college either) into the habit of setting aside time and studying and maybe it'll improve my reading. And speaking a second language is never a bad thing.
Unfortunately "hang out at the beach and drink all day" isn't an option for me. I've got a job, a wife, a house, etc. Besides I'm fat and nobody wants to see me out at the beach anyways.

So, what do you think? Candy-ass? Wimp? L2Gunner?

User avatar
Veyron
Posts: 3598
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:50 am

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Veyron » Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:47 am

Beestinga wrote:I'm going to spend the summer brushing up on my Spanish and trying to get back into the habit of reading. I've been out of college for a few years and haven't read a book in...well...a while. Going to start reading my issues of the economist cover to cover each week and doing an hour or two of Spanish study/practice per night.
Won't give me any kind of law school fundamentals, but will hopefully get me (I won't say back, because I never really studied in college either) into the habit of setting aside time and studying and maybe it'll improve my reading. And speaking a second language is never a bad thing.
Unfortunately "hang out at the beach and drink all day" isn't an option for me. I've got a job, a wife, a house, etc. Besides I'm fat and nobody wants to see me out at the beach anyways.

So, what do you think? Candy-ass? Wimp? L2Gunner?


No offense bro, but if you haven't read a book in a while, you are going to suck hard at law school no matter what you do this summer. Law is a profession for the super-literate only. If you don't enjoy reading enough to do it for pleasure, what makes you think you'll like law?

User avatar
girlonfire
Posts: 470
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:45 pm

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby girlonfire » Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:51 am

Flips88 wrote:
fanmingrui wrote:At the expense of feeling like a total douche... Tag.

User avatar
loblaw
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:27 pm

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby loblaw » Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:55 am

I would never tag something like this...

User avatar
98234872348
Posts: 1547
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:25 pm

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby 98234872348 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:57 am

.
Last edited by 98234872348 on Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Beestinga
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Beestinga » Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:05 am

Veyron wrote:
Beestinga wrote:I'm going to spend the summer brushing up on my Spanish and trying to get back into the habit of reading. I've been out of college for a few years and haven't read a book in...well...a while. Going to start reading my issues of the economist cover to cover each week and doing an hour or two of Spanish study/practice per night.
Won't give me any kind of law school fundamentals, but will hopefully get me (I won't say back, because I never really studied in college either) into the habit of setting aside time and studying and maybe it'll improve my reading. And speaking a second language is never a bad thing.
Unfortunately "hang out at the beach and drink all day" isn't an option for me. I've got a job, a wife, a house, etc. Besides I'm fat and nobody wants to see me out at the beach anyways.

So, what do you think? Candy-ass? Wimp? L2Gunner?


No offense bro, but if you haven't read a book in a while, you are going to suck hard at law school no matter what you do this summer. Law is a profession for the super-literate only. If you don't enjoy reading enough to do it for pleasure, what makes you think you'll like law?

I'm an excellent writer, and I don't think that I'm a bad reader right now - just a little rusty. Like I said, though, I'll get up to speed.

die Zauberflote
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:12 pm

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby die Zauberflote » Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:07 am

The tone of the OPs post is annoying, and I'm sure OP asked the same questions when he was a 0L. I think that we 0Ls continue to ask questions about 0L preparation because the articles on TLS recommend at least some form of preparation (ranging from exam preparation to substantive preparation). Also, the people who wrote the articles lay out their legitimate credentials, whereas a lot of anti-0L-prep advocates on the forum don't. Without credentials, we don't know whether to trust the advice or not:

* Perhaps they are 1Ls without a year's worth of grades and therefore, don't have a complete picture of what's effective either

* Perhaps they go to a shitty school

* Perhaps they've didn't earn top grades

* Perhaps they themselves didn't try 0L preparation and don't know what they are talking about

* Perhaps they are bitter because they didn't do 0L prep and the wish they had

...Or perhaps none of these are true and in a particular instance we 0Ls are getting completely legitimate advice. However, it's anecdotal at best; and what helps or hinders one student won't necessarily help or hinder another.

For LSAT prep I did something that TLS unanimously called stupid. However, because I knew what was best for myself, I ignored the community and on my last 20 PTs scored between 177-180. Unfortunately, I was ill on test day and had to leave during a section, but I still earned a 171 and got scholarship offers from top schools.

So, if you think that prepping will benefit you then do it. I bought E&E torts and I'm reading it right now. When I finish it I'll try to determine if it was beneficial in a meaningful way and then maybe I'll do some more substantive prep—or maybe I won't. I have a family, work a full time job, exercise daily, and read novels. I haven't had to quit any of those things to read and outline my E&E, so I don't understand it when people set up a false dilemma between substantive preparation and relaxation.

(sorry in advance for typos, posting this on phone while in a waiting room)

Beestinga
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby Beestinga » Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:42 pm

plus, I mean, look at the abs of that guy in his avatar picture.
who wouldn't listen to that guy?

die Zauberflote
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:12 pm

Re: The Ultimate 0L gunner guide

Postby die Zauberflote » Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:08 pm

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
die Zauberflote wrote:a lot of anti-0L-prep advocates on the forum don't. Without credentials, we don't know whether to trust the advice or not
This is a legitimate request, I guess, but certainly I have laid out my background, and I think several others have too.
I guess that it’s a legitimate request too. How could it not be? I wouldn’t take LSAT advice from someone who got a 155. I wouldn’t ask someone who squeaked into Podunk Law School to proofread my essays. Why would I take someone’s advice whose performance I wouldn’t care to mirror?

And yes, you and a few others have shared your credentials. But there are also people with similarly impressive credentials who claim that substantive preparation worked for them. As I said:
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
die Zauberflote wrote:what helps or hinders one student won't necessarily help or hinder another.

Certainly true, within reason. I do think we can categorically say that smashing one's head into a pile of bricks repeatedly would help nobody, and that taking practice exams during 1L year would help everybody. The debate is really about what works and what doesn't within the vast expanse between those polar opposites.
Agreed. But you’re making the issue too cut and dry. I think that, categorically, the only thing we can claim is different strokes for different folks. The sweeping generalization that “substantive preparation is bad and you shouldn’t do it because you’ll burn out and you won’t retain anything, and if you’re top of you class in spite of prepping over the summer, it doesn’t matter anyways because you’re a super-genius gunner who would succeed no matter what” is just that, a sweeping generalization.

Sure, you’ve succeed at “the nation’s most challenging curriculum,” but that doesn’t mean that you know an individual better than he or she knows himself or herself. Did you suceed by doing what everyone else did just because they said so, or did you weigh all advice and eventually make a decision that would work for you?
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
die Zauberflote wrote:When I finish it I'll try to determine if it was beneficial in a meaningful way and then maybe I'll do some more substantive prep—or maybe I won't.
This is the real problem with your post. To borrow from The Big Lebowski, you're out of your element; you have no frame of reference here. You cannot "determine whether [prep] was benificial," because you do not have a legitimate understanding of what "beneficial" is. Nor, as a 0L, could you really.
Extend this logic to LSAT preparation: you haven’t taken the LSAT and I have, so what I have to say about LSAT preparation will be more beneficial to you than your own knowledge and understanding of yourself, your habits, and the details of your past successes and failures.

Your experiences are valid and should be considered when I’m making plans, but ultimately your experience won’t be my experience.
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:You might even feel, after reading an E&E, like it was beneficial. You might enjoy the reading, odd though that may be. But the real measure of whether it was "beneficial" depends not on subjective enjoyment -- which itself might be an actual long-term detriment, see the "burnout" posts. Instead, it is whether prep helps you get through the semester more effectively, or earn a better grade. And the people who have been through the classes and taken the exams have almost unanimously have said that on those measures, reading E&E's is not beneficial.
There it is: “almost unanimously.” Perhaps I’ll be in that vast majority or perhaps I won’t; but my knowledge of myself will be a better determiner of that than your (or anyone else’s) personal law-school experience.

That being said, you’re smart as hell. I see your posts on this forum a lot and I always respect what you write. My beef is with the tone of this thread and the hostile attitude directed at those who are trying to decide if summer preparation will be right for them. You’ve been through law school and I haven’t, but I think it’s unreasonable to claim that a 0L—despite all their school visits, class sit-ins, readings, and research—knows literally nothing about law school and shouldn’t be allowed to think for themselves.




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: carlos_danger and 4 guests