Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

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BeachandRun23
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby BeachandRun23 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:49 pm

5ky wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:
5ky wrote:If it's easier to get in, it's because their tuition is outrageously expensive and nobody wants to go.


Yeah but it is worth it since it is Berkeley. It was a center of the Civil Rights movement. You have a great chance to live and work in California your whole life. The Beach Boys, the Grateful Dead, DJ Shadow, Sierra Nevada Brewery, etc. It is the place to be.


http://www.law.berkeley.edu/6943.htm

For an out-of-state student starting next year, Berkeley will cost 76k for the first year, and 79k for the second year (provided they don't establish in-state residency). Given the fact that Berkeley isn't nearly as generous in handing out aid packages, would you really advocate a person go to Berkeley at a cost of 225k compared to 100k at Michigan or UVa if they got a decent scholarship? CA cannot be that great. This, and only this, was the premier reason why I did not go to Berkeley.


This is a genuine problem though. Probably wont matter to people who are deadset on california, but to everyone else, who wants to pay almost 80k a year for law school? Their tuition rates are boderline ridiculous.

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Kronk
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby Kronk » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:41 pm

Hattori Hanzo wrote:This is purely anecdotal but I think it will get easier. It isn't the 2 pt drop in the ranking this year per se but the general idea that Cal is a school on decline (even before last year many people believed it was unjustifiably ranked so high). I was debating Cal. v. CLS last year (I am from California and intend to go back) and was considering Cal's ranking (close to CLS) and somewhat cheaper COA as +s for Cal. Neither apply anymore. If I was making that same decision this year, it wouldn't even be a question for me. I am assuming there are other people out there who think like that. So some students with higher_than_Cal numbers who would have considered it as an alternative to higher ranked schools will be out of the picture, leaving more spots open to people with lower stats.


LOL @ Cal sticking right around where it has always been (7-10) and everyone saying Boalt is "on the decline."

As long as Berkeley is still a top three university in the United States for undergrad and graduate school in general, they will have a top 10-ish law school and business school. Name a single university who has a rocking law school and a terrible undergrad / grad school or vice versa.

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99.9luft
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby 99.9luft » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:54 pm

Kronk wrote:
Hattori Hanzo wrote:This is purely anecdotal but I think it will get easier. It isn't the 2 pt drop in the ranking this year per se but the general idea that Cal is a school on decline (even before last year many people believed it was unjustifiably ranked so high). I was debating Cal. v. CLS last year (I am from California and intend to go back) and was considering Cal's ranking (close to CLS) and somewhat cheaper COA as +s for Cal. Neither apply anymore. If I was making that same decision this year, it wouldn't even be a question for me. I am assuming there are other people out there who think like that. So some students with higher_than_Cal numbers who would have considered it as an alternative to higher ranked schools will be out of the picture, leaving more spots open to people with lower stats.


LOL @ Cal sticking right around where it has always been (7-10) and everyone saying Boalt is "on the decline."

As long as Berkeley is still a top three university in the United States for undergrad and graduate school in general, they will have a top 10-ish law school and business school. Name a single university who has a rocking law school and a terrible undergrad / grad school or vice versa.


+1

Will take Cal over UVA/Mich/Upenn anyday.

Also this: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/w ... kings.html

plurilingue
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby plurilingue » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:41 pm

.
Last edited by plurilingue on Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kronk
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby Kronk » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:03 pm

plurilingue wrote:
Kronk wrote:Name a single university who has a rocking law school and a terrible undergrad / grad school or vice versa.


NYU.


NYU undergrad is consistently ranked around 30. That's pretty elite for an undergrad school. Not to mention that have top graduate programs in art programs and a location in the biggest legal market in the nation.

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fatduck
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby fatduck » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:09 pm

plurilingue wrote:
Kronk wrote:Name a single university who has a rocking law school and a terrible undergrad / grad school or vice versa.


NYU.

Princeton

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ArthurDigbySellers
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby ArthurDigbySellers » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:42 am

NYU isn't a terrible undergrad, but it's law school is significantly more elite. It's still a silly argument though.

Best all around everything is probably Michigan. Seriously, name a single less-than-stellar graduate program at UMich. HYS are always HYS. Most schools are lopsided in their strengths, but Michigan is pretty much incredible everywhere. Top Ten law school, medical school, THE school to go to for graduate school in Poli Sci...etc.

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Kronk
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby Kronk » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:52 am

ArthurDigbySellers wrote:NYU isn't a terrible undergrad, but it's law school is significantly more elite. It's still a silly argument though.

Best all around everything is probably Michigan. Seriously, name a single less-than-stellar graduate program at UMich. HYS are always HYS. Most schools are lopsided in their strengths, but Michigan is pretty much incredible everywhere. Top Ten law school, medical school, THE school to go to for graduate school in Poli Sci...etc.


Best all around everything is definitely Stanford, Harvard, and Berkeley in some order. They are basically 1,2,3 in almost every liberal art graduate school, with the occasional Michigan slipping in, but mainly Harvard, Stanford, and Berkeley dominate. Stanford / Cal also 1-2 for graduate engineering, almost every science, etc.

BeachandRun23
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby BeachandRun23 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:55 am

plurilingue wrote:
Kronk wrote:Name a single university who has a rocking law school and a terrible undergrad / grad school or vice versa.


NYU.


LOL they dont have a "terrible" undergrad. It may not be elite elite, but its still pretty darn good. Not to mention their business program is consistantly ranked top 5 and their preforming arts program is consistantly one of the best as well. Plus they have an impeccable reputation in NYC and many networking opportunities due to their location.

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ArthurDigbySellers
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby ArthurDigbySellers » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:04 am

Kronk wrote:
ArthurDigbySellers wrote:NYU isn't a terrible undergrad, but it's law school is significantly more elite. It's still a silly argument though.

Best all around everything is probably Michigan. Seriously, name a single less-than-stellar graduate program at UMich. HYS are always HYS. Most schools are lopsided in their strengths, but Michigan is pretty much incredible everywhere. Top Ten law school, medical school, THE school to go to for graduate school in Poli Sci...etc.


Best all around everything is definitely Stanford, Harvard, and Berkeley in some order. They are basically 1,2,3 in almost every liberal art graduate school, with the occasional Michigan slipping in, but mainly Harvard, Stanford, and Berkeley dominate. Stanford / Cal also 1-2 for graduate engineering, almost every science, etc.


Those 3 may be on top, but Michigan does not "occasionally slip in." There's virtually nothing it's not in the top 5 for. And contrary to what USNWR may say, virtually every Poli Sci professor I have ever had regards Michigan as having the best department/graduate program in the country.

bruinwang
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby bruinwang » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:18 am

ArthurDigbySellers wrote:NYU isn't a terrible undergrad, but it's law school is significantly more elite. It's still a silly argument though.

Best all around everything is probably Michigan. Seriously, name a single less-than-stellar graduate program at UMich. HYS are always HYS. Most schools are lopsided in their strengths, but Michigan is pretty much incredible everywhere. Top Ten law school, medical school, THE school to go to for graduate school in Poli Sci...etc.


+1. Michigan is arguably "best all around everything" amongst public schools, at the very least. That's not an easy feat, considering the current economy there and overall. Also, in terms of reputation Michigan seems to be more well-received generally, whereas Berkeley is more divisive (people either really hate the place, or they love it to death). The only people who would hate Michigan are probably ones we wouldn't need to worry about for employment anyway. :D

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Kronk
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby Kronk » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:34 am

bruinwang wrote:
ArthurDigbySellers wrote:NYU isn't a terrible undergrad, but it's law school is significantly more elite. It's still a silly argument though.

Best all around everything is probably Michigan. Seriously, name a single less-than-stellar graduate program at UMich. HYS are always HYS. Most schools are lopsided in their strengths, but Michigan is pretty much incredible everywhere. Top Ten law school, medical school, THE school to go to for graduate school in Poli Sci...etc.


+1. Michigan is arguably "best all around everything" amongst public schools, at the very least. That's not an easy feat, considering the current economy there and overall. Also, in terms of reputation Michigan seems to be more well-received generally, whereas Berkeley is more divisive (people either really hate the place, or they love it to death). The only people who would hate Michigan are probably ones we wouldn't need to worry about for employment anyway. :D


Not really worth arguing about, but I would definitely say Berkeley is the best all around everything as far as public schools go. Michigan hovers around 20th or so for a lot of the sciences and other programs, and only edges out Berkeley in law (essentially even) and one or two liberal arts disciplines. Berkeley, Stanford, and Harvard are literally top ten (usually top five) in everything, with only one or two exceptions. The California higher education system is undoubtedly the best in the nation, even with the financial troubles. Michigan is more of a UCLA-type school with a few standout programs (like law, historically).

UT-Austin is another great public university that is generally underrated by people, I'd say.

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:39 am

troll on you crazy diamonds

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ArthurDigbySellers
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby ArthurDigbySellers » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:49 am

Kronk wrote:
bruinwang wrote:
ArthurDigbySellers wrote:NYU isn't a terrible undergrad, but it's law school is significantly more elite. It's still a silly argument though.

Best all around everything is probably Michigan. Seriously, name a single less-than-stellar graduate program at UMich. HYS are always HYS. Most schools are lopsided in their strengths, but Michigan is pretty much incredible everywhere. Top Ten law school, medical school, THE school to go to for graduate school in Poli Sci...etc.


+1. Michigan is arguably "best all around everything" amongst public schools, at the very least. That's not an easy feat, considering the current economy there and overall. Also, in terms of reputation Michigan seems to be more well-received generally, whereas Berkeley is more divisive (people either really hate the place, or they love it to death). The only people who would hate Michigan are probably ones we wouldn't need to worry about for employment anyway. :D


Not really worth arguing about, but I would definitely say Berkeley is the best all around everything as far as public schools go. Michigan hovers around 20th or so for a lot of the sciences and other programs, and only edges out Berkeley in law (essentially even) and one or two liberal arts disciplines. Berkeley, Stanford, and Harvard are literally top ten (usually top five) in everything, with only one or two exceptions. The California higher education system is undoubtedly the best in the nation, even with the financial troubles. Michigan is more of a UCLA-type school with a few standout programs (like law, historically).

UT-Austin is another great public university that is generally underrated by people, I'd say.


Agreed on Berkeley, but strongly disagree on the UCLA comparison. Michigan is the opposite of UCLA in that it's almost all standout programs with a few lower ranked programs in the sciences. I don't know why I've gone on such a pro-Michigan bender, and it really isn't worth arguing about, but the UCLA comparison is way off base. Michigan is probably the best public university after Berkeley. UVa is probably right after. Chapel Hill too. All of the UC's are really good as far as state school though, but they're not all cream of the crop. UT is undervalued, especially their undergrad business program.

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ArthurDigbySellers
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby ArthurDigbySellers » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:50 am

paulinaporizkova wrote:troll on you crazy diamonds


Well you wore out your welcome with random precision

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ArthurDigbySellers
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby ArthurDigbySellers » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:55 am

Anyway, the point is moot because outside of professional school (law, business, etc) or, say something technical like engineering or comp sci, pure ranking doesn't matter. If Michigan is #10 and Berkeley #6 in your field, but Michigan has the top scholar in your subfield, you'd be a fool not to go to Michigan. It really doesn't matter, yet I continue...

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ArthurDigbySellers
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby ArthurDigbySellers » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:56 am

ArthurDigbySellers wrote:Anyway, the point is moot because outside of professional school (law, business, etc) or, say something technical like engineering or comp sci, pure ranking doesn't matter. If Michigan is #10 and Berkeley #6 in your field, but Michigan has the top scholar in your subfield, you'd be a fool not to go to Michigan. It really doesn't matter, yet I continue...


Well fuck, the point isn't moot, but I was referring to grad school for those on the academia track. Oh fuck it...

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:58 am

ArthurDigbySellers wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:troll on you crazy diamonds


Well you wore out your welcome with random precision

is that how it works now?


also, 300 posts in 4 days? you're shaping up to be a marathon runner who sprints for the first 5 miles and then passes out on the side of the road and dies a lonely and awful death

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Kronk
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby Kronk » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:59 am

I can understand where you would say Michigan is better than UCLA. I think you're probably right. I would say, though, that I think it's closer than you think. For instance, UCLA outranks Michigan here http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/w ... kings.html and also outranks Michigan in USNWR for undergrad. Michigan slightly outranks UCLA in most graduate programs, though, so it is probably overall better. But I think UCLA is very underrated in general.

bruinwang
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby bruinwang » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:59 am

Kronk wrote:I can understand where you would say Michigan is better than UCLA. I think you're probably right. I would say, though, that I think it's closer than you think. For instance, UCLA outranks Michigan here http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/w ... kings.html and also outranks Michigan in USNWR for undergrad. Michigan slightly outranks UCLA in most graduate programs, though, so it is probably overall better. But I think UCLA is very underrated in general.


I suppose I appreciate the sentiment, considering I went there for both undergrad and grad (if the username didn't already give it away). Still, I'd like to believe that going to Michigan for law is a "step up" for me, rather than a lateral move, which I think we can agree it is. :wink:

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Kronk
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby Kronk » Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:34 am

bruinwang wrote:
Kronk wrote:I can understand where you would say Michigan is better than UCLA. I think you're probably right. I would say, though, that I think it's closer than you think. For instance, UCLA outranks Michigan here http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/w ... kings.html and also outranks Michigan in USNWR for undergrad. Michigan slightly outranks UCLA in most graduate programs, though, so it is probably overall better. But I think UCLA is very underrated in general.


I suppose I appreciate the sentiment, considering I went there for both undergrad and grad (if the username didn't already give it away). Still, I'd like to believe that going to Michigan for law is a "step up" for me, rather than a lateral move, which I think we can agree it is. :wink:


Definitely true for law school. Congrats.

jeremysen
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby jeremysen » Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:59 am

Take a look at Berkeley's LSN graphs for all 8 cycles. Soooooooooo red

http://berkeley.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/1011/

le_taon
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby le_taon » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:08 am

I just wanted to offer this anecdotal evidence:

Apparently Chicago's 1L class (of 2013) was somewhat over-subscribed this year (e.g., 10 greater matriculants than usual, which is saying something given the size of Chicago), and the primary reason was (sad to say) its one-spot jump over NYU in the USNWR 2011 rankings.

You can bet that will affect the way this year's admissions goes.

So, I do think it matters, and I do think the school will take it into account at the margins. But I don't think that it will matter so much that people without a realistic shot before will have a realistic shot now. Indeed, the greater trend in law school applications (down ... 10-15%) will have a far greater effect.

jeremysen
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby jeremysen » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:21 am

le_taon wrote:Apparently Chicago's 1L class (of 2013) was somewhat over-subscribed this year, and the primary reason was its one-spot jump over NYU in the USNWR 2011 rankings.


I don't think over-matriculation can be credited Primarily to a 1-spot jump. Nearly all the top law schools experienced something similar (2013 class) to the phenomenon you described...

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glewz
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Re: Will Berkeley be easier to get into?

Postby glewz » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:23 am

jeremysen wrote:
le_taon wrote:Apparently Chicago's 1L class (of 2013) was somewhat over-subscribed this year, and the primary reason was its one-spot jump over NYU in the USNWR 2011 rankings.


I don't think over-matriculation can be credited Primarily to a 1-spot jump. Nearly all the top law schools experienced something similar (2013 class) to the phenomenon you described...

I agree. Where'd you pull that out of, le-taon?




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