The reason for huge drop of Emory

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Nicholasnickynic
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:16 pm

gwuorbust wrote:
Nicholasnickynic wrote:
Not what I meant. My point is that simply graduating from any law school is not enough. You actually have to perform well to get a job . The prevailing opinion on this board is that if you get into a T14, you will be set because you have more leeway in how shitty your grades can be and still get a job (as opposed to a TTT/TTTT which apparently requires top 10% to get a job) and therefore many are surprised when grads from top schools are unemployed (never mind their 2.4 GPAs, they should get a biglaw jerb right?).


nevermind thier 2.4 gpas? Look who the fuck they are competing against. I dont go to a t14, not even close, but if I were hiring, id take a below median t-14 student over a #1 student at TTT.


meh, I think grades merely help hiring partners figure out who to let interview. once ppl are let in the door to interview, it becomes more of a test of who interviews best.

w/0 the grades, no interview.

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gwuorbust
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby gwuorbust » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:51 pm

Nicholasnickynic wrote:w/0 the grades, no interview.


fo sure. but say that people with grades below the 40th percentile should not be eligible to practice law is nonsensical, unfounded and insulting.

grades are in many ways assigned randomly. therefore, grades =/= competence at practicing law.

Metaread
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby Metaread » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:06 pm

Related to this discussion, here are some convincing comments from the Above the law article on Emory's damage control:

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/03/start-your-whining-schools-make-excuses-for-their-poor-u-s-news-rankings/

Elie Mystal:I thought about whether Emory was just getting smacked because it told the truth while others lied. And maybe that's the case. Sadly, I have no evidence that anybody else lied (not that pesky things like "facts" have stopped me before. Duke *did not* have 100% employment last year, period end of story).

But the real problem, as Guestivius just pointed out, is that I had no evidence that Emory told the truth. The sad reality is that we live in a world where all law school administrators are presumed to be lying about these statistics because none of them have the guts and report spin-free statistics to an independent group (like LST for example). It's like the steroid era in baseball. So many players were on them and lied about them that you just have to assume that nearly every great performance was "enhanced" and you kind of have to downgrade the whole lot of them.

It is far more likely that Emory massaged, mislead, and cooked their employment numbers just like everybody else, but did so with even weaker underlying statistics. (analogy: I could take steroids just like Barry Bonds, grow my head just like Bonds, but still not hit as many home runs as Bonds. And worse performance would not make me any less of a cheater.)

And the final nail in that coffin is the press release itself. If you had "honestly" reported your numbers and felt like other people hadn't, would you be screaming about this? Wouldn't you be screaming to anyone who would listen, "we might be 30th but at least we were HONEST with our students, UNLIKE SOME SCHOOLS." Even Miami explained exactly how they were trying to inflate the employment rate. Emory doesn't say it did anything differently than any other school... only they had fewer people employed by the end of the sausage making process.

So in the end, no, I don't think Emory was the one honorable school getting unfairly singled out in a world full of unscrupulous mofos. I think Emory was just like the rest of them, only at core had weaker employment numbers than some other places.


EmoryGuest: THANK YOU for publishing this. It was a slap in the face to the entire Emory student body. The employment upon graduation rate is atrocious. Meanwhile, at the business school, their rankings are going up and over 90% of graduates are employed.

One thing nobody has mentioned is that Emory enrolled a record number of 1L's this year for class of '13. So in the middle of a freefall in the legal market and while the school's graduates fail to get jobs, there was a huge increase in the incoming class.

Speaks for itself.


Ouch. And now my optimistic hope that Emory's employment is actually just fine....went out the window.

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lovejopd
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby lovejopd » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:39 pm

Wow nice post!!
8)

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Nicholasnickynic
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:24 pm

gwuorbust wrote:
Nicholasnickynic wrote:w/0 the grades, no interview.


fo sure. but say that people with grades below the 40th percentile should not be eligible to practice law is nonsensical, unfounded and insulting.

grades are in many ways assigned randomly. therefore, grades =/= competence at practicing law.


agreed

apl6783
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby apl6783 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:00 pm

.
Last edited by apl6783 on Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby HarlandBassett » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:35 am

i found this comment on ATL more interesting


Dean Partlett at Emory should suck up his pride and call it quits, because as far as I am concerned he has done absolutely nothing positive for the law school. This coming from a 2010 ELS grad.

He has a lackluster OCS department, that has had more turnovers in the three short years that I spent at the school, than people walking in and out of Subway over lunch. His current OCS staff has done absolutely nothing to maintain previously viable and numerous connections with BigLaw firms interested in the Emory name. His "late to play" fellowship program offered to 2010 grads to skew employment statistics was offered up only in December 2010, months behind other T1 law schools with similar programs. To add insult to injury, that fellowship program only pays its students at a going rate of a little over min. wage per hour in most states. I've done my homework and no other T1 school's fellowship program is that cheap. Let's also mention that the class of 2010 itself raised the highest amount as a class gift to donate back to school amidst the recession and the probability of joblessness for more than 50% of the class, and this is how the school values it's generous alumni.

There is no doubt that Emory is in fact an excellent school that can provide bright minds with great opportunities, but I'm hard pressed to find them in this economy. So let's also talk about the Emory name and expansion of that name into other regions. I presently reside outside of Georgia. Outside of that state, most people have no clue as to where Emory is located, let alone the quality of education I received there. I will say the faculty are first-rate, and viably compete with the likes of Harvard, Stanford, Penn, Michigan, Vanderbilt, etc. faculty any day of the week. So why aren't people aware of this? Could it be that the Dean has fallen short of promoting the law school's name where it counts? The faculty and the diversity of the student body are together the only outstanding qualities that the school has left to boast about. Any further improvements must come from the administration itself. This isn't rocket science.

Partlett should have seen and smelled this one coming. Shape up or ship out.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby FeelTheHeat » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:49 am

That's a scathing indictment. Their application process this cycle has been maddening as well.

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BruceWayne
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:00 am

Big Dog wrote:
Why should the bottom of the class find jobs? Would you want a doctor who graduated in the bottom 40% of his class? Of course not./quote]

Regardless of what you may want, I can assure you that 99% of all graduates from all allopathic med schools will find a job.


Horrible analogy. Other professions don't used forced curves like law schools do. You either know the material and are qualified to practice your trade or you aren't. Law doesn't work like that (well except at Yale since they don't use a forced curve). Hypothetically every person in a law class could know the subject pretty (even very well) and be qualified to practice, but because of the forced curve whoever knows it "better" gets a higher grade. A person in the bottom 40 percent in Criminal law at UChicago could be excellent in criminal law. But because he goes to a school with many other brilliant students there are some who are even more "excellent" than him. This is precisely the reason firms hire deeper into the ranks at top schools.
Last edited by BruceWayne on Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby romothesavior » Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:09 am

MrPapagiorgio wrote:I know I know, grades aren't everything and some people who graduate at the bottom of the class turn out to be great doctors, lawyers, superheroes, whatever. I get it. The fact is, if you finish in the bottom 40% or lower, what did you expect? If you were a hiring manager, would you flock to mediocrity? I doubt it.

I am yet to read a post by you that I actually agreed with. Or even found remotely insightful. Or even rational.

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lastch2
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby lastch2 » Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:25 am

The best that I can understand Emory (as previously discussed) didn't need to maintain a relationship with mid-size/small firms in GA and so they didn't (stupid mistake #1). they they increased their tuition to t-14 rates without putting the money to use that would increase their ranking and prestinge such as creating solid relations with biglaw and creating a world-class faculty (stupid mistake #2). being from GA i can say that there is a general preception that emory is a snotty school which does not bode well with many die-hard georgians, many of which own the mid-size/small firms and feel much more comfortable hiring a "true" georgian from UGA (which is dumb, but i've heard it used many times as a selling point) rather than a school with an influx of outsiders (stupid reasoning emory didn't pick up on). all of this plus their weird recruiting practices led to them becoming a joke, a caricture of the pompus private lawl-school with nothing to back it up. it seems pretty obvious that outside GA emory doesn't mean much, but honestly in GA it carries mixed connotations making it especially volatile ITE where those in-state connections mean a lot. boo on emory for poor choices.

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ctxmike
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby ctxmike » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:07 am

I'm an Emory undergrad and this really caught a lot of people off guard. I hope this isn't reflective of what's going to happen to the college.

flcath
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby flcath » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:36 am

SoupIsGoodFood wrote:
MrPapagiorgio wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:The fact that almost 40% of their grads can't find jobs is a bit disturbing.

Why should the bottom of the class find jobs? Would you want a doctor who graduated in the bottom 40% of his class? Of course not. So why would you want a lawyer (who represents your best interest) who is not competent enough to at least be in the top half of the class?

I know I know, grades aren't everything and some people who graduate at the bottom of the class turn out to be great doctors, lawyers, superheroes, whatever. I get it. The fact is, if you finish in the bottom 40% or lower, what did you expect? If you were a hiring manager, would you flock to mediocrity? I doubt it.


...yes, because when I go see a doctor for the first time, I demand full printouts of his transcripts, class rank and copies of his application essays before I so much as let him take my temperature. wtf?

I think this was trolling.

If you have ever been to a primary care physician, you have seen a doctor who graduated in the bottom 40% of his class.

Unless PapaG only goes to neurosurgeons for his physicals and his kid's ear infections.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby HarlandBassett » Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:00 pm

lastch2 wrote: emory is a snotty school


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asdflawyer
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby asdflawyer » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:52 pm

FiveSermon wrote:The fact that almost 40% of their grads can't find jobs is a bit disturbing.



Would you still say that Emory is worth it sticker, if you want to work in GA?

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby FeelTheHeat » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:59 pm

asdflawyer wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:The fact that almost 40% of their grads can't find jobs is a bit disturbing.



Would you still say that Emory is worth it sticker, if you want to work in GA?


Image

But seriously, what about that statistic would make you think going at sticker would ever be a good idea?

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SilverE2
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby SilverE2 » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:19 pm

asdflawyer wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:The fact that almost 40% of their grads can't find jobs is a bit disturbing.



Would you still say that Emory is worth it sticker, if you want to work in GA?


No fucking way. Go to UGA (if you're a georgia resident)

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sanetruth
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby sanetruth » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:37 pm

FiveSermon wrote:The fact that almost 40% of their grads can't find jobs is a bit disturbing.


I'm confused. Aren't 40% of students at every school outside of HYSCCNP having a hard time finding jobs too?

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:39 pm

SilverE2 wrote:
asdflawyer wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:The fact that almost 40% of their grads can't find jobs is a bit disturbing.

Would you still say that Emory is worth it sticker, if you want to work in GA?

No fucking way. Go to UGA (if you're a georgia resident)

Even if you're not. You'll get residency for your second and third years, and they often give in-state-equalization scholarships for the first year. In-state is $17,000. Emory is $45,000. Over three years, that means you pay $84,000 more for Emory, which is a mere five places higher in the rankings (#30 vs #35). Emory does still place a little better in big law, but UGA has amazing Article III placement and probably leaves you less screwed if you don't land Atlanta big law.

Anecdotally, I have only met one recent graduate of Emory Law - we both work the same $20 per hour part-time job.

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lovejopd
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby lovejopd » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:40 pm

AntipodeanPhil wrote:
SilverE2 wrote:
asdflawyer wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:The fact that almost 40% of their grads can't find jobs is a bit disturbing.

Would you still say that Emory is worth it sticker, if you want to work in GA?

No fucking way. Go to UGA (if you're a georgia resident)


Anecdotally, I have only met one recent graduate of Emory Law - we both work the same $20 per hour part-time job.

:lol:

asdflawyer
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby asdflawyer » Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:54 pm

AntipodeanPhil wrote:
SilverE2 wrote:
asdflawyer wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:The fact that almost 40% of their grads can't find jobs is a bit disturbing.

Would you still say that Emory is worth it sticker, if you want to work in GA?

No fucking way. Go to UGA (if you're a georgia resident)

Even if you're not. You'll get residency for your second and third years, and they often give in-state-equalization scholarships for the first year. In-state is $17,000. Emory is $45,000. Over three years, that means you pay $84,000 more for Emory, which is a mere five places higher in the rankings (#30 vs #35). Emory does still place a little better in big law, but UGA has amazing Article III placement and probably leaves you less screwed if you don't land Atlanta big law.

Anecdotally, I have only met one recent graduate of Emory Law - we both work the same $20 per hour part-time job.
Last edited by asdflawyer on Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

keg411
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby keg411 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:52 pm

sanetruth wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:The fact that almost 40% of their grads can't find jobs is a bit disturbing.


I'm confused. Aren't 40% of students at every school outside of HYSCCNP having a hard time finding jobs too?


Egregious UPenn State trolling

flcath
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby flcath » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:26 pm

keg411 wrote:
sanetruth wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:The fact that almost 40% of their grads can't find jobs is a bit disturbing.


I'm confused. Aren't 40% of students at every school outside of HYSCCNP having a hard time finding jobs too?


Egregious UPenn State trolling

Good. People have been going to hard on Penn; it's a ivy league school, and thus clearly the best of MVP.

It's just 'cause of all this Sandusky shit that people are putting down the entire institution.

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Veyron
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby Veyron » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:00 pm

flcath wrote:
keg411 wrote:
sanetruth wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:The fact that almost 40% of their grads can't find jobs is a bit disturbing.


I'm confused. Aren't 40% of students at every school outside of HYSCCNP having a hard time finding jobs too?


Egregious UPenn State trolling

Good. People have been going to hard on Penn; it's a ivy league school, and thus clearly the best of MVP.

It's just 'cause of all this Sandusky shit that people are putting down the entire institution.


Nice TWIST friend, how is USC?

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Grizz
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Re: The reason for huge drop of Emory

Postby Grizz » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:09 pm

asdflawyer wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:The fact that almost 40% of their grads can't find jobs is a bit disturbing.



Would you still say that Emory is worth it sticker, if you want to work in GA?

lol no




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