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Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:05 pm
by DubPoker
This article says "In the first ever ranking of law schools by hiring officials at the country's top law firms"

Doesn't US news normally have reputational ranking? I thought it from both judges and firms? This is just firms?

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:08 pm
by CanadianWolf
This is just the opinions of those 750 hiring partners at law firms who returned the survey form.

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:10 pm
by CanadianWolf
@bdubs : No.

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:10 pm
by LLB2JD
CanadianWolf wrote:This is just the opinions of those 750 hiring partners at law firms who returned the survey form.


LoL... But watch how some schools are going to include this info in their brochures for next year. However, the opinions of hiring partners is nothing to sneeze at. Afterall, they hold the wand to the plum jobs that most of us are all gunning for.

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:13 pm
by zreinhar
With a response rate of 14% I think you could put even less weight to these rankings... also, no GW? ruh roh

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:14 pm
by dabbadon8
CanadianWolf wrote:@dabbadon8: I think that you may have missed the word "not" in my post noting the comment as Virginia & Duke are ranked higher in the recruiting survey.


No I meant it is unlikely that they let something go because that would mean there would be a huge shake up in the rankings and I doubt that is the case. I was saying that since so many schools had a relatively dramatic move I doubt those comments by the author revealed anything.

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:15 pm
by rayiner
bdubs wrote:
dabbadon8 wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Did the author let one of the new school ranks slip when 8th place for Northwestern was not noted as being better than their USNews ranking even though Michigan & Cornell (tied at 8th with Northwestern, Chicago & Berkeley) were tagged as being lower ranked than 8th place ?


Doubt it. Virginia is 6, and duke 8. Both also not mentioned.


?? Virginia is currently 10 and Duke is tied for 11 with Northwestern

New rankings would have to look something like this:
7 Penn
8 Berkeley
8 Virginia
8 Duke
8 Northwestern
12 Michigan
13 Cornell
14 Georgetown


I can totes get behind this ranking.

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:25 pm
by columbia86
mez06 wrote:useless.


???

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:37 pm
by arhmcpo
columbia86 wrote:
mez06 wrote:useless.


???


Um, a 14% response rate?

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:41 pm
by paulinaporizkova
CanadianWolf wrote:@bdubs : No.

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:57 pm
by CanadianWolf
Although it could just be an editorial oversight, the suggestions by omission in the line that "Cornell & Michigan fared better than in the overall USNews rankings" is that in the upcoming (next week) rankings is that Virginia will be ranked at least sixth while Duke & Northwestern will move up to eighth or better.

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:00 pm
by paulinaporizkova
CanadianWolf wrote:Although it could just be an editorial oversight, the suggestions by omission in the line that "Cornell & Michigan fared better than in the overall USNews rankings" is that in the upcoming (next week) rankings is that Virginia will be ranked at least sixth while Duke & Northwestern will move up to eighth or better.

i just read this multiple times and still have no idea what you said.......

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:06 pm
by CanadianWolf
You need to read it in conjunction with the article that is the subject of this thread. As I wrote, it could just be an editorial oversight or it could be that the article was referring to the new rankings. If Northwestern & Duke are tied for 8th place in the recruiter rankings & the article points out that the recruiter rankings of Michigan (tied for4th) & Cornell (tied for 8th) are better than their USNews overall rankings, then the implication by omission is that Duke & Northwestern are ranked 8th or higher in the new overall rankings. Otherwise, the editor & author of the article did a very poor job of fact checking. Same for Virginia & its sixth place recruiter ranking.

To further simplify, one needs to be aware that, at least until March 15th, Duke & Northwestern are ranked 11th in the USNews overall rankings & Virginia is ranked 10th. Cornell & Michigan, however, are ranked 13th & 10th respectively overall.

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:10 pm
by FiveSermon
CanadianWolf wrote:You need to read it in conjunction with the article that is the subject of this thread. As I wrote, it could just be an editorial oversight or it could be that the article was referring to the new rankings. If Northwestern & Duke are tied for 8th place in the recruiter rankings & the article points out that the recruiter rankings of Michigan (tied for4th) & Cornell (tied for 8th) are better than their USNews overall rankings, then the implication by omission is that Duke & Northwestern are ranked 8th or higher in the new overall rankings. Otherwise, the editor & author of the article did a very poor job of fact checking. Same for Virginia & its sixth place recruiter ranking.


"Those were stronger showings for Michigan and Cornell compared to their rankings in the overall U.S. News list."

That's all I could find. That only means that M and C outperformed their rankings. I don't get what you are getting at.

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:11 pm
by JusticeHarlan
paulinaporizkova wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Although it could just be an editorial oversight, the suggestions by omission in the line that "Cornell & Michigan fared better than in the overall USNews rankings" is that in the upcoming (next week) rankings is that Virginia will be ranked at least sixth while Duke & Northwestern will move up to eighth or better.

i just read this multiple times and still have no idea what you said.......

The theory involves overly reading into this paragraph from the article:

Other schools that fared well in the recruiters' survey include Columbia University and University of Michigan—Ann Arbor, tied for fourth place; New York University and the University of Virginia in sixth place; and Cornell University, Duke University, Northwestern University, University of California—Berkeley, and University of Chicago, all in eighth place. Those were stronger showings for Michigan and Cornell compared to their rankings in the overall U.S. News list.


If Michigan is ranked 4th in the recruiter rankings, and it 'fairs better' in that ranking than in the overall rankings, we know its ranked below 4th in the overall rankings (which would be unsurprising). Ditto with Cornell: if it was ranked 8th in this rankings, and it did better in this ranking than in the overall ranking, then it must be ranked below 8th in the overall ranking. Again, I think we all expect Michigan to be below 4th and Cornell below 8th. So it doesn't say much.

However, what I believe CanadianWolf is jabbering about is that the article doesn't make such remarks about other schools: therefore, the 'suggestion by omission' is that if UVA is ranked 6th in the recruiter rankings, and isn't mentioned as out performing its overall rankings, then that implies UVA is ranked 6th in the overall ranking. Ditto for Duke and Northwestern at 8th.

I don't agree with the logic, but I think that's what he's getting at.

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:12 pm
by FiveSermon
JusticeHarlan wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Although it could just be an editorial oversight, the suggestions by omission in the line that "Cornell & Michigan fared better than in the overall USNews rankings" is that in the upcoming (next week) rankings is that Virginia will be ranked at least sixth while Duke & Northwestern will move up to eighth or better.

i just read this multiple times and still have no idea what you said.......

The theory involves overly reading into this paragraph from the article:

Other schools that fared well in the recruiters' survey include Columbia University and University of Michigan—Ann Arbor, tied for fourth place; New York University and the University of Virginia in sixth place; and Cornell University, Duke University, Northwestern University, University of California—Berkeley, and University of Chicago, all in eighth place. Those were stronger showings for Michigan and Cornell compared to their rankings in the overall U.S. News list.


If Michigan is ranked 4th in the recruiter rankings, and it 'fairs better' in that ranking than in the overall rankings, we know its ranked below 4th in the overall rankings (which would be unsurprising). Ditto with Cornell: if it was ranked 8th in this rankings, and it did better in this ranking than in the overall ranking, then it must be ranked below 8th in the overall ranking. Again, I think we all expect Michigan to be below 4th and Cornell below 8th. So it doesn't say much.

However, what I believe CanadianWolf is jabbering about is that the article doesn't make such remarks about other schools: therefore, the 'suggestion by omission' is that if UVA is ranked 6th in the recruiter rankings, and isn't mentioned as out performing its overall rankings, then that implies UVA is ranked 6th in the overall ranking. Ditto for Duke and Northwestern at 8th.

I don't agree with the logic, but I think that's what he's getting at.


That's terrible logic. That's not even logic per se. That's just bad assumptions.

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:13 pm
by CanadianWolf
The logic is sound, but the question is simply whether or not this is an editorial oversight &/or poor fact checking. If the logic is not sound, then why leave out Virginia, Duke & Northwestern from the line noting Cornell & Michigan's superior rankings over their overall USNews rankings ?

P.S. Regardless, whether it is an editorial error or not, we'll all know on March 15th when the new USNews overall rankings are released.

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:16 pm
by FiveSermon
CanadianWolf wrote:The logic is sound, but the question is simply whether or not this is an editorial oversight &/or poor fact checking. If the logic is not sound, then why leave out Virginia, Duke & Northwestern from the line noting Cornell & Michigan's superior rankings over their overall USNews rankings ?

P.S. Regardless whether it is an editorial error or not, we'll all know on March 15th when the new USNews overall rankings are released.


Because if school A outperforms it's US news rankings by 1-2 spot while school B outperforms it by 6 spots, one is news while other is just acceptable margin of error. Hurr Durr.

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:18 pm
by CanadianWolf
It would be 4 (Virginia),3 & 3 (Duke & Northwestern) versus 6 (Michigan) & 5 (Cornell).

As i wrote earlier, it could be just due to poor editing. Otherwise the article might have noted that "the most dramatic rankings difference from the overall USNews rankings were by Cornell--5 places higher--& Michigan--6 spots higher."

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:35 pm
by run26.2
These rankings are rubbish. In order for Y/S to get a 4.8, somewhere between 16% and 25% of the respondents would have to give them a 4. Only H graduates would possibly do this. jk. But seriously, would this many unbiased people not give HYS a 5?

The same goes for peer schools further down. M/V would downgrade P. This explains why the smaller schools seem to underperform relative to their peers.

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:37 pm
by FiveSermon
run26.2 wrote:These rankings are rubbish. In order for Y/S to get a 4.8, somewhere between 16% and 25% of the respondents would have to give them a 4. Only H graduates would possibly do this. jk. But seriously, would this many unbiased people not give HYS a 5?

The same goes for peer schools further down. M/V would downgrade P. This explains why the smaller schools seem to underperform relative to their peers.


Cornell? One of the smallest T14's. Also greatly outperformed rankings.

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:40 pm
by run26.2
FiveSermon wrote:
run26.2 wrote:These rankings are rubbish. In order for Y/S to get a 4.8, somewhere between 16% and 25% of the respondents would have to give them a 4. Only H graduates would possibly do this. jk. But seriously, would this many unbiased people not give HYS a 5?

The same goes for peer schools further down. M/V would downgrade P. This explains why the smaller schools seem to underperform relative to their peers.


Cornell? One of the smallest T14's.

Not in a peer group with an image complex.

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:42 pm
by FiveSermon
No clue what an "image complex" is or how that would explain this discrepancy.

Anyways I don't think small school vs big schools matter here. It's just the entire thing is dumb.

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:52 pm
by danquayle
CanadianWolf wrote:It would be 4 (Virginia),3 & 3 (Duke & Northwestern) versus 6 (Michigan) & 5 (Cornell).

As i wrote earlier, it could be just due to poor editing. Otherwise the article might have noted that "the most dramatic rankings difference from the overall USNews rankings were by Cornell--5 places higher--& Michigan--6 spots higher."


Hhhmmm. Indubitably.

Re: US News Recruiter Rankings

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:59 pm
by mths
ExpectLess wrote:Actually, Yale, Chicago, Penn, Berkeley all underperformed their ranking, and they all have relatively small class sizes. All this survey did was regurgitate USNews rankings with a tilt toward large class sizes.

Cornell has a class of 190