Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

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romothesavior
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby romothesavior » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:14 am

NiccoloA wrote:I realize that T14 is the lion that eats before the rest, but I'm looking at the best statistics I had the time to find (--LinkRemoved--) and though the reporting is low, there is some reporting of graduates earning six digit figures. How does that reconcile?

You answered your own question with the bolded. The reported median salary for private practice is like $102,000, but that number represents the median for less than a quarter of the class. Also, those with high salaries are far more likely to respond to these surveys than those without a job or with a terrible job, so we can pretty safely assume that the rest of Miami's class (those not represented in that 22% or whatever) was making far less than 6-figures.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby FeelTheHeat » Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:44 am

romothesavior wrote:
NiccoloA wrote:I realize that T14 is the lion that eats before the rest, but I'm looking at the best statistics I had the time to find (--LinkRemoved--) and though the reporting is low, there is some reporting of graduates earning six digit figures. How does that reconcile?

You answered your own question with the bolded. The reported median salary for private practice is like $102,000, but that number represents the median for less than a quarter of the class. Also, those with high salaries are far more likely to respond to these surveys than those without a job or with a terrible job, so we can pretty safely assume that the rest of Miami's class (those not represented in that 22% or whatever) was making far less than 6-figures.


I'm as big a Miami hater as anyone, but I'm not so sure I agree with that analysis. Its a psychological jump I don't think is fair to make.

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NiccoloA
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby NiccoloA » Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:17 am

romothesavior wrote:
NiccoloA wrote:I realize that T14 is the lion that eats before the rest, but I'm looking at the best statistics I had the time to find (--LinkRemoved--) and though the reporting is low, there is some reporting of graduates earning six digit figures. How does that reconcile?

You answered your own question with the bolded. The reported median salary for private practice is like $102,000, but that number represents the median for less than a quarter of the class. Also, those with high salaries are far more likely to respond to these surveys than those without a job or with a terrible job, so we can pretty safely assume that the rest of Miami's class (those not represented in that 22% or whatever) was making far less than 6-figures.


Again though, roughly 80 graduates of some 350 are making that money. That's not a lot, but it is an example that you can make pretty good money after graduating.

At sticker price, it's a big cost and for 6 years you'll be living modestly, but after that you'll probably be doing better and happier for living in South Beach.

Miami isn't T14, but most schools aren't T14, and most students can't get into T14. So if you want to live and work in South Beach, Miami isn't a bad choice.

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romothesavior
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby romothesavior » Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:25 am

NiccoloA wrote:Again though, roughly 80 graduates of some 350 are making that money. That's not a lot, but it is an example that you can make pretty good money after graduating.

At sticker price, it's a big cost and for 6 years you'll be living modestly, but after that you'll probably be doing better and happier for living in South Beach.

Miami isn't T14, but most schools aren't T14, and most students can't get into T14. So if you want to live and work in South Beach, Miami isn't a bad choice.

Not rounghly 80. Roughly 80 responded to the salary survey (22% of 350), and the median of that is just a hair over 100k to start. So roughly 40 students out of 350. Also, this is data from before the economic downturn (class of 2008 data). You can probably cut that number in half now. We can say for sure that for the class of 2010, the percentage is at or below 10%, because the latest NLJ 250 numbers cut-off at 10.5%, and Miami is not on the list. Also, many Florida NLJ firms start at less than 100k, so at least some Miami grads who do get NLJ are not even making 6-figures. (I'm not saying 80-90k is a bad starting salary because it is very good, I'm just responding to your post.) So we know for sure that less that 10% of the most recent grads started at six-figures, and I think a safe estimate would be between 5-8% of the class. Could even be less.

So what are the other ~90% of the class doing? Based on the well-documented bi-modal starting salary distribution, probably starting out between 30-50k, if they found a job at all. Some may be doing better than others, but based on the best information we've got from NLJ and based on the bi-modal nature of starting salaries, it is pretty safe to assume that a large majority of the class is making less than 60k to start. That's great money out of college, but not so good when you're living in a high COL area with 6 figures of debt.

So is Miami a bad school for south Florida? No, but as has been said ITT already, you better make sure you get a big scholarship, because otherwise it is a huge gamble.

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romothesavior
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby romothesavior » Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:35 am

FeelTheHeat wrote:
romothesavior wrote:You answered your own question with the bolded. The reported median salary for private practice is like $102,000, but that number represents the median for less than a quarter of the class. Also, those with high salaries are far more likely to respond to these surveys than those without a job or with a terrible job, so we can pretty safely assume that the rest of Miami's class (those not represented in that 22% or whatever) was making far less than 6-figures.


I'm as big a Miami hater as anyone, but I'm not so sure I agree with that analysis. Its a psychological jump I don't think is fair to make.

Maybe you're right. This is a pretty well-accepted TLS rule of thumb (the well-employed grads are more likely to respond to job surveys than jobless/shitty job people), and maybe it should be scrutinized a bit. But just look at the data... higher ranked schools generally have higher response rates than lower ranked schools, so it seems to be at least indirectly supported. And don't you think it makes pretty clear sense that people who are doing well would be more likely to report their successes than those who are embarrassed or upset about their poor prospects? Self-selection bias is always a big factor in self-reported data, so I'm not sure why it wouldn't be a big factor here.

Even if you don't agree with the jump that I made, it looks like it was correct or at least not off by more than a few percentages (see above analysis). Less than 10% of Miami grads are getting biglaw based on NLJ numbers, and because a lot of Florida NLJ jobs are non-six figure jobs, less than 10% of the class is getting a six-figure starting salary.

And I'm no Miami hater... I have no horse in this race. Miami is a decent school, but no one should attend at sticker (I also tell people not to go to WUSTL at sticker, so I'm consistent). I would not go to Miami for less than a full scholarship. The odds are just stacked so strongly against a student getting a high starting salary to pay off that debt, and Miami is not a huge market that can absorb all of the grads.

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TTH
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby TTH » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:03 pm

Man...it would be bitchin to live/work/practice in Miami.

One thing I respect UMiami for: they've been a lot more upfront with their students/applicants about what the legal world looks like than a lot of other schools ITE

nodummy
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby nodummy » Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:52 am

romothesavior wrote:
FeelTheHeat wrote:
romothesavior wrote:You answered your own question with the bolded. The reported median salary for private practice is like $102,000, but that number represents the median for less than a quarter of the class. Also, those with high salaries are far more likely to respond to these surveys than those without a job or with a terrible job, so we can pretty safely assume that the rest of Miami's class (those not represented in that 22% or whatever) was making far less than 6-figures.


I'm as big a Miami hater as anyone, but I'm not so sure I agree with that analysis. Its a psychological jump I don't think is fair to make.

Maybe you're right. This is a pretty well-accepted TLS rule of thumb (the well-employed grads are more likely to respond to job surveys than jobless/shitty job people), and maybe it should be scrutinized a bit. But just look at the data... higher ranked schools generally have higher response rates than lower ranked schools, so it seems to be at least indirectly supported. And don't you think it makes pretty clear sense that people who are doing well would be more likely to report their successes than those who are embarrassed or upset about their poor prospects? Self-selection bias is always a big factor in self-reported data, so I'm not sure why it wouldn't be a big factor here.

Even if you don't agree with the jump that I made, it looks like it was correct or at least not off by more than a few percentages (see above analysis). Less than 10% of Miami grads are getting biglaw based on NLJ numbers, and because a lot of Florida NLJ jobs are non-six figure jobs, less than 10% of the class is getting a six-figure starting salary.

And I'm no Miami hater... I have no horse in this race. Miami is a decent school, but no one should attend at sticker (I also tell people not to go to WUSTL at sticker, so I'm consistent). I would not go to Miami for less than a full scholarship. The odds are just stacked so strongly against a student getting a high starting salary to pay off that debt, and Miami is not a huge market that can absorb all of the grads.


Your first graph is full of holes...for example "generally have higher response rates...," "at least indirectly supported," and "embarrassed or upset about their poor prospects..." are all extremely subjective comments leading into your extremely subjective "analysis."

Just taking issue with the latter, how can you narrow the emotional impact down to embarrassment or sadness? How would you know? You're obviously not in that position yet generalizing based on movies, tv shows, or articles you've read.

In sum, you sound like another TLSer from a T-14 OR (which may be more likely) a T-14 hopeful without any idea of what you're talking about (aka: a young moron trying to sound smart ONLINE because your shortcomings in reality are limiting your law school acceptance letter ego).

TOMaHULK
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby TOMaHULK » Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:21 am

nodummy wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
FeelTheHeat wrote:
romothesavior wrote:You answered your own question with the bolded. The reported median salary for private practice is like $102,000, but that number represents the median for less than a quarter of the class. Also, those with high salaries are far more likely to respond to these surveys than those without a job or with a terrible job, so we can pretty safely assume that the rest of Miami's class (those not represented in that 22% or whatever) was making far less than 6-figures.


I'm as big a Miami hater as anyone, but I'm not so sure I agree with that analysis. Its a psychological jump I don't think is fair to make.

Maybe you're right. This is a pretty well-accepted TLS rule of thumb (the well-employed grads are more likely to respond to job surveys than jobless/shitty job people), and maybe it should be scrutinized a bit. But just look at the data... higher ranked schools generally have higher response rates than lower ranked schools, so it seems to be at least indirectly supported. And don't you think it makes pretty clear sense that people who are doing well would be more likely to report their successes than those who are embarrassed or upset about their poor prospects? Self-selection bias is always a big factor in self-reported data, so I'm not sure why it wouldn't be a big factor here.

Even if you don't agree with the jump that I made, it looks like it was correct or at least not off by more than a few percentages (see above analysis). Less than 10% of Miami grads are getting biglaw based on NLJ numbers, and because a lot of Florida NLJ jobs are non-six figure jobs, less than 10% of the class is getting a six-figure starting salary.

And I'm no Miami hater... I have no horse in this race. Miami is a decent school, but no one should attend at sticker (I also tell people not to go to WUSTL at sticker, so I'm consistent). I would not go to Miami for less than a full scholarship. The odds are just stacked so strongly against a student getting a high starting salary to pay off that debt, and Miami is not a huge market that can absorb all of the grads.


Your first graph is full of holes...for example "generally have higher response rates...," "at least indirectly supported," and "embarrassed or upset about their poor prospects..." are all extremely subjective comments leading into your extremely subjective "analysis."

Just taking issue with the latter, how can you narrow the emotional impact down to embarrassment or sadness? How would you know? You're obviously not in that position yet generalizing based on movies, tv shows, or articles you've read.

In sum, you sound like another TLSer from a T-14 OR (which may be more likely) a T-14 hopeful without any idea of what you're talking about (aka: a young moron trying to sound smart ONLINE because your shortcomings in reality are limiting your law school acceptance letter ego).


:shock:

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:50 am

nodummy wrote:Your first graph is full of holes...for example "generally have higher response rates...," "at least indirectly supported," and "embarrassed or upset about their poor prospects..." are all extremely subjective comments leading into your extremely subjective "analysis."

Just taking issue with the latter, how can you narrow the emotional impact down to embarrassment or sadness? How would you know? You're obviously not in that position yet generalizing based on movies, tv shows, or articles you've read.

In sum, you sound like another TLSer from a T-14 OR (which may be more likely) a T-14 hopeful without any idea of what you're talking about (aka: a young moron trying to sound smart ONLINE because your shortcomings in reality are limiting your law school acceptance letter ego).

Aww. That's cute.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby FeelTheHeat » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:16 am

Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:
nodummy wrote:Your first graph is full of holes...for example "generally have higher response rates...," "at least indirectly supported," and "embarrassed or upset about their poor prospects..." are all extremely subjective comments leading into your extremely subjective "analysis."

Just taking issue with the latter, how can you narrow the emotional impact down to embarrassment or sadness? How would you know? You're obviously not in that position yet generalizing based on movies, tv shows, or articles you've read.

In sum, you sound like another TLSer from a T-14 OR (which may be more likely) a T-14 hopeful without any idea of what you're talking about (aka: a young moron trying to sound smart ONLINE because your shortcomings in reality are limiting your law school acceptance letter ego).

Aww. That's cute.


Guys, please don't group me with this lol

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romothesavior
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby romothesavior » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:30 am

nodummy wrote:In sum, you sound like another TLSer from a T-14 OR (which may be more likely) a T-14 hopeful without any idea of what you're talking about (aka: a young moron trying to sound smart ONLINE because your shortcomings in reality are limiting your law school acceptance letter ego).

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha....

*takes breath*

aaaaaahahahahahahahahahaha

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romothesavior
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby romothesavior » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:36 am

Nothing on TLS is as funny to me (and at the same time, extremely frustrating) as being accused of being an elitist T14er (which I'm not, nor do I go to a T14) by some dipshit with about as much knowledge of the legal market as my cat. Never mind this post, which was well thought out and based on the best job data available to us:

Not rounghly 80. Roughly 80 responded to the salary survey (22% of 350), and the median of that is just a hair over 100k to start. So roughly 40 students out of 350. Also, this is data from before the economic downturn (class of 2008 data). You can probably cut that number in half now. We can say for sure that for the class of 2010, the percentage is at or below 10%, because the latest NLJ 250 numbers cut-off at 10.5%, and Miami is not on the list. Also, many Florida NLJ firms start at less than 100k, so at least some Miami grads who do get NLJ are not even making 6-figures. (I'm not saying 80-90k is a bad starting salary because it is very good, I'm just responding to your post.) So we know for sure that less that 10% of the most recent grads started at six-figures, and I think a safe estimate would be between 5-8% of the class. Could even be less.

So what are the other ~90% of the class doing? Based on the well-documented bi-modal starting salary distribution, probably starting out between 30-50k, if they found a job at all. Some may be doing better than others, but based on the best information we've got from NLJ and based on the bi-modal nature of starting salaries, it is pretty safe to assume that a large majority of the class is making less than 60k to start. That's great money out of college, but not so good when you're living in a high COL area with 6 figures of debt.

So is Miami a bad school for south Florida? No, but as has been said ITT already, you better make sure you get a big scholarship, because otherwise it is a huge gamble.


nodummy, you are a HUGE dummy. You don't like my points? Fine. Dispute them with something other than ridiculous ad hominems. You think what I'm saying isn't accurate? Show me how. You don't like that I had to make some inferences here? Then go bitch to the ABA or to the law schools, because this is the best data we've got. But don't call me things that I'm not just because you don't like what I'm saying.

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Grizz
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby Grizz » Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:54 am

nodummy wrote:Your first graph is full of holes...for example "generally have higher response rates...," "at least indirectly supported," and "embarrassed or upset about their poor prospects..." are all extremely subjective comments leading into your extremely subjective "analysis."

Just taking issue with the latter, how can you narrow the emotional impact down to embarrassment or sadness? How would you know? You're obviously not in that position yet generalizing based on movies, tv shows, or articles you've read.

In sum, you sound like another TLSer from a T-14 OR (which may be more likely) a T-14 hopeful without any idea of what you're talking about (aka: a young moron trying to sound smart ONLINE because your shortcomings in reality are limiting your law school acceptance letter ego).


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ns77770
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby ns77770 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:10 am

tagged for the lulz

PleaseHelpThanks
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby PleaseHelpThanks » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:56 pm

UF>>>>>>>>>>>FSU>UM>>>>>>>>>>>OTHER

ns77770
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby ns77770 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:09 pm

PleaseHelpThanks wrote:UF>>>>>>>>>>>FSU>UM>>>>>>>>>>>OTHER


That big of a difference between UF and FSU (and this is coming from someone going to UF in the Fall)?

PleaseHelpThanks
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby PleaseHelpThanks » Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:05 pm

ns77770 wrote:
PleaseHelpThanks wrote:UF>>>>>>>>>>>FSU>UM>>>>>>>>>>>OTHER


That big of a difference between UF and FSU (and this is coming from someone going to UF in the Fall)?


You're right

UF>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FSU>UM>>>>>>>>>>>>>OTHER

dtown16
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby dtown16 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:27 am

Is nova and ave maria for-profit law schools? Similar to Charlotte Law?

aliarrow
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby aliarrow » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:32 am

dtown16 wrote:Is nova and ave maria for-profit law schools? Similar to Charlotte Law?


They're both private non-profits.

dtown16
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby dtown16 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:36 am

aliarrow wrote:
dtown16 wrote:Is nova and ave maria for-profit law schools? Similar to Charlotte Law?


They're both private non-profits.


Is either one of them worth going to if:
a. they are the only 2 schools you get into and
b. you have the finances to pay for law school and avoid any debt coming out of law school
or would it be more worthwhile to sit a year out, study longer for the lsat, retake it in the fall, and start applying for the next cycle? Any thoughts are appreciated

aliarrow
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby aliarrow » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:41 am

dtown16 wrote:
aliarrow wrote:
dtown16 wrote:Is nova and ave maria for-profit law schools? Similar to Charlotte Law?


They're both private non-profits.


Is either one of them worth going to if:
a. they are the only 2 schools you get into and
b. you have the finances to pay for law school and avoid any debt coming out of law school
or would it be more worthwhile to sit a year out, study longer for the lsat, retake it in the fall, and start applying for the next cycle? Any thoughts are appreciated


Wait a year and retake, find something interesting to do for the year off so you won't be so anxious about it if possible. Schools this bad will leave you worse coming out than you were coming in, even if theres no debt involved (unless you have a sure thing job-wise before you go and they only care about you having a JD) - if you even graduate, Ave Maria fails out a large proportion of the class.

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98234872348
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby 98234872348 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:49 am

dtown16 wrote:
aliarrow wrote:
dtown16 wrote:Is nova and ave maria for-profit law schools? Similar to Charlotte Law?


They're both private non-profits.


Is either one of them worth going to if:
a. they are the only 2 schools you get into and
b. you have the finances to pay for law school and avoid any debt coming out of law school
or would it be more worthwhile to sit a year out, study longer for the lsat, retake it in the fall, and start applying for the next cycle? Any thoughts are appreciated

If you can't make the simple grammatical distinction between 'is' and 'are' I don't think law school is going to be the right place for you...

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:49 am

After looking at the 2009 employment data graph mega thread:

Miami = 13% of the class made more than $85,000
FSU = 21% of the class made more than $60,000
UF = 18% of the class made more than $70,000

If these aren't peers, I don't know what is.

Miami could actually place more people into high paid employment than UF, depending on what the 5% between Miami and UF looks like. I would reasonably argue that UF and UM outplace FSU though.

aliarrow
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby aliarrow » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:55 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:After looking at the 2009 employment data graph mega thread:

Miami = 13% of the class made more than $85,000
FSU = 21% of the class made more than $60,000
UF = 18% of the class made more than $70,000

If these aren't peers, I don't know what is.

Miami could actually place more people into high paid employment than UF, depending on what the 5% between Miami and UF looks like. I would reasonably argue that UF and UM outplace FSU though.


You have to look at the whole picture though - Miami has about double the unemployed/unknown as UF/FSU. UF/FSU place significantly more into government which is why their private sector stats aren't as appealing.

dtown16
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Re: Please rank Florida Law Schools for me.

Postby dtown16 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:58 am

mistergoft wrote:
dtown16 wrote:
aliarrow wrote:
dtown16 wrote:Is nova and ave maria for-profit law schools? Similar to Charlotte Law?


They're both private non-profits.


Is either one of them worth going to if:
a. they are the only 2 schools you get into and
b. you have the finances to pay for law school and avoid any debt coming out of law school
or would it be more worthwhile to sit a year out, study longer for the lsat, retake it in the fall, and start applying for the next cycle? Any thoughts are appreciated

If you can't make the simple grammatical distinction between 'is' and 'are' I don't think law school is going to be the right place for you...


good point, let's just hope i do better on the grammar section of the bar :P




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