Top Law Schools

RockyIII wrote:Just so everyone knows, Ave Maria moved from Michigan to Florida within the last 2 years. That's why the have all the stats about the Michigan Bar. Doesn't matter though, because it isn't worth attending no matter what state it's in.

Since [a board member who opposed Monaghan's] ouster, the law school has been in a freefall. Most of the original faculty have fled or been pushed out, and the quality of the students has tumbled. One current professor told me, “Our student body now is one of the four or five worst in America.” The instability has also wreaked havoc on the school’s reputation: in the 2009 U.S. News & World Report law school rankings, Ave Maria tied for last place in the peer-assessment category, the most important measure in determining a school’s standing. (The school was not officially ranked because U.S. News doesn’t rank schools that land in the bottom tier.) Meanwhile, there are signs that Monaghan’s foundation, which funds the law school and the university, is on the verge of running out of money, in part because Monaghan bet his fortune—and the future of his nonprofits—on the now-crumbling Florida real estate market. Earlier this year, Ave Maria University’s second-longest-standing professor resigned, but not before sending a letter to administrators expressing his alarm at the school’s financial straits. “I fear that all of us (to different degrees) are participating in something that we may later deeply regret,” he wrote, “namely selling to young people and their families [an] educational product that we do not have sufficient reason to believe can be delivered.”

Meanwhile, in June, the U.S. Department of Education reported that Ave Maria School of Law had failed its financial responsibility test, the only law school in the nation to do so. Even more troubling, the school ranked sixth to last among all American institutions of higher learning on the department’s financial responsibility index, thanks partly to its multimillion-dollar deficit. With its finances in disarray, the school has shelved plans for the $30 million building across from Mansion Row. When Ave Maria School of Law finally opened for business in Florida this August, it was in a former retirement home on the outskirts of Naples.

JusticeHarlan wrote:

RockyIII wrote:Just so everyone knows, Ave Maria moved from Michigan to Florida within the last 2 years. That's why the have all the stats about the Michigan Bar. Doesn't matter though, because it isn't worth attending no matter what state it's in.

Here's a great piece on how that happened, for those interested. It has to do with building a crucifix the size of the Statute of Liberty (true story):

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/colleg ... he_sky.php

Some choice quotes from the last page of the article:

Since [a board member who opposed Monaghan's] ouster, the law school has been in a freefall. Most of the original faculty have fled or been pushed out, and the quality of the students has tumbled. One current professor told me, “Our student body now is one of the four or five worst in America.” The instability has also wreaked havoc on the school’s reputation: in the 2009 U.S. News & World Report law school rankings, Ave Maria tied for last place in the peer-assessment category, the most important measure in determining a school’s standing. (The school was not officially ranked because U.S. News doesn’t rank schools that land in the bottom tier.) Meanwhile, there are signs that Monaghan’s foundation, which funds the law school and the university, is on the verge of running out of money, in part because Monaghan bet his fortune—and the future of his nonprofits—on the now-crumbling Florida real estate market. Earlier this year, Ave Maria University’s second-longest-standing professor resigned, but not before sending a letter to administrators expressing his alarm at the school’s financial straits. “I fear that all of us (to different degrees) are participating in something that we may later deeply regret,” he wrote, “namely selling to young people and their families [an] educational product that we do not have sufficient reason to believe can be delivered.”

Meanwhile, in June, the U.S. Department of Education reported that Ave Maria School of Law had failed its financial responsibility test, the only law school in the nation to do so. Even more troubling, the school ranked sixth to last among all American institutions of higher learning on the department’s financial responsibility index, thanks partly to its multimillion-dollar deficit. With its finances in disarray, the school has shelved plans for the $30 million building across from Mansion Row. When Ave Maria School of Law finally opened for business in Florida this August, it was in a former retirement home on the outskirts of Naples.

I've got nothing against Catholic law schools - I go to one - but I would place Ave Maria pretty far down any ranking of law schools.

incase2011 wrote:Seems like Ave Maria has a pretty decent faculty considering... Maybe someone can compare this to Barry or St. Thomas's faculty and prove me wrong? Or even some of the other schools that have been placed above it?

http://www.avemarialaw.edu/index.cfm?ev ... y.profiles

Ya, granted it just moved, but I think you all are naive as to where it moved. I'm not going to elaborate, I'm just going to put that out there. Of course, I'm no where, dear god, near making any comparison to Stetson or above. But dude is right, haters be hatin haha.

Also, let's save some time. I'm not at all affiliated with Ave Maria, but I know the area well. Some of the professors linked to above are from Canada, have crazy international backgrounds, etc. (probably pointless to pick one or two professors as indication that the whole faculty sucks; further, this would be poor form regardless of the topic. I see it too often. It's happened earlier in this thread lol.)

I'm just saying there's some quality there that most of those who posted earlier may have overlooked. It's too early to tell. The school just recently restructured, and it was tough. That's all I've heard. It has a non-existent or bad reputation, depending on how you look at it.

incase2011 wrote:Agh, that's the point bro. What makes it so crappy?

The answer tomahawk suggested, if I understand correctly, was that there's a stigma related to its probably overzealous Catholic undertones - whether that's right or wrong. Did you look at the faculty... you didn't even look at the faculty, did you haha. I'm not saying you couldn't find fault with some of them, but you know, consider the full picture.

RockyIII wrote:

incase2011 wrote:Agh, that's the point bro. What makes it so crappy?

The answer tomahawk suggested, if I understand correctly, was that there's a stigma related to its probably overzealous Catholic undertones - whether that's right or wrong. Did you look at the faculty... you didn't even look at the faculty, did you haha. I'm not saying you couldn't find fault with some of them, but you know, consider the full picture.

Every law school in the country has "good" faculty. That doesn't make it a good school. There is a reason it is a TTTT. Employment statistics are horrible, it has an awful repuatation among peers, their median numbers are low, and it certainly is regarded very highly by employers.

incase2011 wrote:

RockyIII wrote:

incase2011 wrote:Agh, that's the point bro. What makes it so crappy?

The answer tomahawk suggested, if I understand correctly, was that there's a stigma related to its probably overzealous Catholic undertones - whether that's right or wrong. Did you look at the faculty... you didn't even look at the faculty, did you haha. I'm not saying you couldn't find fault with some of them, but you know, consider the full picture.

Every law school in the country has "good" faculty. That doesn't make it a good school. There is a reason it is a TTTT. Employment statistics are horrible, it has an awful repuatation among peers, their median numbers are low, and it certainly is regarded very highly by employers.

Ya, but do you see how a lot these problems could be attributed to the fact that it's only been open two years, or that it's a very Catholic school? Other than the reputation, you could have been describing Drexel (maybe an argument can be made that employers like Drexel, but people can be rough on the Drexel forums too. It's funny though how opinions change in different contexts. This could be interesting.). I'm not saying Drexel doesn't have a lot more going for it than Ave Maria. It's definitely in a better place financially. I'm simply saying... what I said lol.

incase2011 wrote:Also, a close friend might have to attend for various reasons, so I had to say something...

rman1201 wrote:

incase2011 wrote:

RockyIII wrote:

incase2011 wrote:Agh, that's the point bro. What makes it so crappy?

The answer tomahawk suggested, if I understand correctly, was that there's a stigma related to its probably overzealous Catholic undertones - whether that's right or wrong. Did you look at the faculty... you didn't even look at the faculty, did you haha. I'm not saying you couldn't find fault with some of them, but you know, consider the full picture.

Every law school in the country has "good" faculty. That doesn't make it a good school. There is a reason it is a TTTT. Employment statistics are horrible, it has an awful repuatation among peers, their median numbers are low, and it certainly is regarded very highly by employers.

Ya, but do you see how a lot these problems could be attributed to the fact that it's only been open two years, or that it's a very Catholic school? Other than the reputation, you could have been describing Drexel (maybe an argument can be made that employers like Drexel, but people can be rough on the Drexel forums too. It's funny though how opinions change in different contexts. This could be interesting.). I'm not saying Drexel doesn't have a lot more going for it than Ave Maria. It's definitely in a better place financially. I'm simply saying... what I said lol.

I see what you're saying - but Notre Dame is 'very Catholic' and yet it does just fine, BYU is an even more ridiculous school (with an even more ridiculous religion) and it's a decent school too. Maybe they do take things too far and this contributes to it being the worst accredited school in the nation, but it's hard to pin it on religion alone. There's just a clusterf*** of things wrong with it.

incase2011 wrote:Agh, that's the point bro. What makes it so crappy?

romothesavior wrote:My god the posts in this thread are awful.

TOMaHULK wrote:

romothesavior wrote:My god the posts in this thread are awful.

All of em?

drummerboy wrote:hence, miami is more expensive, but is that the only reason not to attend?

romothesavior wrote:

drummerboy wrote:hence, miami is more expensive, but is that the only reason not to attend?

Here's a reason: Having $200,000 in loans with a $40,000 salary, or worse, no legal job at all.

RockyIII wrote:

romothesavior wrote:

drummerboy wrote:hence, miami is more expensive, but is that the only reason not to attend?

Here's a reason: Having $200,000 in loans with a $40,000 salary, or worse, no legal job at all.

Okay well if I make $40,000 I can pay pack my $200,000 debt in 5 years! I did that math correctly, yeah?

RockyIII wrote:

romothesavior wrote:

drummerboy wrote:hence, miami is more expensive, but is that the only reason not to attend?

Here's a reason: Having $200,000 in loans with a $40,000 salary, or worse, no legal job at all.

Okay well if I make $40,000 I can pay pack my $200,000 debt in 5 years! I did that math correctly, yeah?