This is what awaits many of you upon graduation. Forum

[JCougar]

is it just me or does this look a little suspicious.

Sure, I get it, the legal market sucks cow testicles right now, but I can't help but feel this is some major trolling tactic to scare away future generations of lawyers.

Just sayin

+1000

I decided to finish the article, and I seriously can't make myself believe that it is real.

It may be real, it may be contrived. But it definitely could be real. I know more than one graduate of a TTT with top 15% grades that is approaching a year's worth of unemployment. One lives in Milwaukee with his parents and was happy to have recently gotten an interview for a clerk position for some small-town judge in Minnesota -- hours away from his family and friends, and pays less than $50K. I don't think he got the job though.

I'm not one to scoff at a $60K salary, either. Most people can't expect much more straight out of college, or even most graduate programs. There isn't a profession in the world where you can expect to make $160K without actually proving yourself in the work world. In medical school, you have to do residency, and in every other profession, you have to work your way up to that level. The real thing that's wrong with the whole law school process is the cost of tuition. Even with some scholarship money, it's a rip-off. Paying $40K/year to sit in a bunch of lecture halls where all the professor has to do is grade one exam is ridiculous. People wouldn't be jumping off of cliffs due to not getting an OCI job if law school tuition was in any way reflective of the value of a JD.

[romothesavior]

Regardless of the posters school rank, this is a very sad situation which the poster did not deserve to have happen to them.

This is where we have to disagree. Terrible school + paying 6 figures + mediocre grades = screwed. Maybe "deserve" isn't the right word, but they certainly should have expected it.

[Anonymous Loser]

This site really isn't need of a prophet foretelling of the dangers awaiting Touro students.

You might want to spend a bit more time perusing the "What are my chances" threads as well as the legal employment forum. Many TLS posters scored below 160 on the LSAT and have never held a full-time job: frankly, not much distinguishes these posters from the average Touro student.

Additionally, Mtal threads routinely reach 6+ pages. Although the "FAFSA?!?!" threads seem to make up the bulk of the TLS bandwidth, obviously, right or wrong, what Mtal has to say has some relevance to the TLS community.

[romothesavior]

This site really isn't need of a prophet foretelling of the dangers awaiting Touro students.

You might want to spend a bit more time perusing the "What are my chances" threads as well as the legal employment forum. Many TLS posters scored below 160 on the LSAT and have never held a full-time job: frankly, not much distinguishes these posters from the average Touro student.

Additionally, Mtal threads routinely reach 6+ pages. Although the "FAFSA?!?!" threads seem to make up the bulk of the TLS bandwidth, obviously, right or wrong, what Mtal has to say has some relevance to the TLS community.

I actually think Mtal's overall message is spot on, but I think there are far more helpful and effective ways of getting that message across.

[Helmholtz]

This site really isn't need of a prophet foretelling of the dangers awaiting Touro students.

You might want to spend a bit more time perusing the "What are my chances" threads as well as the legal employment forum. Many TLS posters scored below 160 on the LSAT and have never held a full-time job: frankly, not much distinguishes these posters from the average Touro student.

Additionally, Mtal threads routinely reach 6+ pages. Although the "FAFSA?!?!" threads seem to make up the bulk of the TLS bandwidth, obviously, right or wrong, what Mtal has to say has some relevance to the TLS community.

Yes, and I'm fairly certain of the responses that one would get if he were to ask about the option of going to a tier 3/4 school at full price. It would probably be a combination of "retake the LSAT" and "don't go to law school." Let's face it, if you were thinking about going to a crappy school at full price, then spent fifteen minutes on this forum doing research, and still planned on going, some URL link posted by MTal probably isn't going to change your mind. I don't think MTal's modus operandi is posting insightful, useful data showing why Tier 3/4 schools are usually a bad choice.

[$1.99]

i have a question. Why is MTal still around these boards? Didn't he get shamed out many cycles ago and drop out? I don't understand the impulse to come to this site when you have been out of the law school process for so long. It is like the high school jock who keeps coming back to visit when he is now a plumber.

[flcath]

The JDU schtick is fucking hilarious. I've always wanted to post there--and I consider myself a subtle poster with good tone control--but I honestly don't think I have the skills. The first part of the formula, which is usually what gets criticized by uncreative TLS types, is a yawn, sure, but the payoff in step 3 is so worth it.

Step 1) Disastrous current situation <--- [x] <--- significant debt at TTT
Notes: [x] need not be a fully-plausible story of how you got from LS to the street (it only needs to stand up to the scrutiny of ppl who've never been out in the workplace). When in doubt, substitute increased detail for realism.

Step 2) Generalize your OP's situation as being the ultimate fate of >98% of the legal profession
Notes: Be careful here: this is where your off-hand logical extensions will be the most glaringly obvious to your readership. Think about it, TLS kids spend all day comparing different schools to each other; they're likely to notice when you broadly assert that Fordham kids will meet the same fate as your OP's alma mater (NYLS or Touro, preferably)... hell, they probably have the respective NLJ250 placement %tiles memorized.

In my view, it is better to just have the OP present his (note the male gender... there should always be a distinct undertone of emasculation) personal situation, and then let the experienced JDU postership point out how your OP's fate is not limited to TTT grads, but in fact befalls all but the top 10% of non-HYS schools. They have no empirical support for this, but the overwhelming consensus of its truth will suffice to scare lurkers... this is the principle upon which JDU was founded, after all.

Step 3) Discuss current "options" going forward
Notes: This is where you can start to have some fun! Intermixed among the obligatory references to homelessness and day labor, enjoy yourself and paint your OP as being hung up on one totally bizarre idea, like joining the French Foreign Legion just to get the pseudonym. I promise you your fellow JDU poasters will support you in this, and you will soon be having a full-fledged discussion going on such topics as whether and why your JD will disqualify you from becoming an ivory hunter (a job which you should discuss in glowing terms!) in Sierra Leone.

[Fark-o-vision]

Is eight fifty minimum wage in NY?

My buddy has a DUI, a marijuana conviction and a chosen resignation for popping on a piss test at his previous employer. He still managed to land a job making 9.50 an hour pumping gas at chevron. He also does yard work for 11 dollars an hour on the occasional weekend.

[AreJay711]

Is eight fifty minimum wage in NY?

My buddy has a DUI, a marijuana conviction and a chosen resignation for popping on a piss test at his previous employer. He still managed to land a job making 9.50 an hour pumping gas at chevron. He also does yard work for 11 dollars an hour on the occasional weekend.

lol Jersey?

One of my good friends at my summer job in college was a 23 year old H.S. dropout on parole for dealing and made $18 an hour. No doubt the debt makes living hard but I find it hard to believe that a law degree makes you less employable than the average person. If nothing else, just don't mention it in a job interview and say you were working under the table for 3 years.

[Mickey Quicknumbers]

Is eight fifty minimum wage in NY?

My buddy has a DUI, a marijuana conviction and a chosen resignation for popping on a piss test at his previous employer. He still managed to land a job making 9.50 an hour pumping gas at chevron. He also does yard work for 11 dollars an hour on the occasional weekend.

lol Jersey?

One of my good friends at my summer job in college was a 23 year old H.S. dropout on parole for dealing and made $18 an hour. No doubt the debt makes living hard but I find it hard to believe that a law degree makes you less employable than the average person. If nothing else, just don't mention it in a job interview and say you were working under the table for 3 years.

Part of it is the psychological aspect though. That poster probably is thinking "I have a law degree, i'm going to practice law if it kills me". Because once you start working in other fields, the odds of you ever getting into the legal market start approaching 0 very fast, and so by doing anything else, he would have to admit to himself that those 3 years and all that debt are absolutely worthless, which might be even scarier a thought than having to live in a car for a month.

Honestly if I were him, with all dignity gone out the window, I would go full on homeless. Camp out every day IN FRONT of the law school begging for money with some sort of sign that says "I got my JD here and now i'm homeless." It would obviously cause some sort of media ruckus that would make the school look awful and bring in terrible publicity, especially if you're extra loud on admitted students weekend. Then they'd probably be more willing to work to find you some sort of job.

[emmbar53]

ITT:

MTal: Listen, TLS, you know there's something I haven't told you about the night you graduate from law school.

TLS: Please, MTal, don't tell me, no man should know too much about their own destiny.

MTal: You don't understand.

TLS: I do understand. If I know too much about my own future I could endanger my own existence, just as you endangered yours.

(Later, MTal is writing a letter)

MTal: Dear Doctor TLS, on the night that I go back in time, you will become homeless. Please take whatever precautions are necessary to prevent this terrible disaster.

(TLS finds the letter)

TLS: It's information about the future isn't it. I warned you about this kid. The consequences could be disastrous!

[rose711]

I think the title of this thread is very misleading. But on another thought:

I have been formulating another idea which I'm not sure which thread to put it in. The idea is this: people need to add a step (or two really) when they get to the point of choosing a law school. The first step is to research the hell out of the legal market you are going to school in and the legal market you want to work in. Before signing for loans, prospective students should spend as much time looking into the job market as they do at looking at school stats and (possibly) preparing for the lsat. This would include talking to 2Ls and3Ls, contacting local firms and lawyers (private and government) directly for their opinions on the local market, NALP, and to a lesser extent career services. Researching the local economy is important - I saw a thread recently about Albany Law School and I happen to know that there is a government hiring freeze - anyone going to school there should know about that hiring freeze so they can make an informed decision.

The second step is to figure out in advance what numbers you have to get to make it worth it to stay if you are below a certain point after first semester and second semester. (also, on the high side, the numbers you need to have to consider transferring out.) And part of this step is to explain to your parents, family, friends and SO that you intend to do extremely well, but doing well in law school is not a given for anyone, and if you get below a certain level of grade, you need to drop out simply because staying makes no economic sense. (and that if you do above a certain level, you will be considering transferring)

I don't know what other people think of this idea and maybe it should be its own thread. Sorry if I made a mistake putting this here.

My idea is that people ITE have to know the job market(s) they will be applying into at least as well as they know their schools' medians, how to study for the LSAT and the threads here on how to do well in school. I am starting to feel this diligence has to be a specific part of the whole law school decision process.

[fakemoney]

Not to doubt that this situation could occur, but it's a little too cookie-cut for JD Underground's taste in "TTT woe-is-me" yarns for me to think the OP is on the level

[TheTopBloke]

And you people want to be my lawyer. Fucking pathetic.

This is not an example of a homeless kid or a mentally deficient person. This is an example of an individual who was allegedly smart enough to get into law school, graduate, pass the bar, and now he can't survive?

Geez, file BK. It's only money. Get a life. There are people out there with a lot worse problems then yours. Like I said, no sympathy for a down and out lawyer. Fuck them, and fuck MTal. Get a life loser.

[bartleby]

And you people want to be my lawyer. Fucking pathetic.

This is not an example of a homeless kid or a mentally deficient person. This is an example of an individual who was allegedly smart enough to get into law school, graduate, pass the bar, and now he can't survive?

Geez, file BK. It's only money. Get a life. There are people out there with a lot worse problems then yours. Like I said, no sympathy for a down and out lawyer. Fuck them, and fuck MTal. Get a life loser.

Sounds like a 19 year old who has never struggled a day in his life

[whitman]

.

[Mickey Quicknumbers]

And you people want to be my lawyer. Fucking pathetic.

This is not an example of a homeless kid or a mentally deficient person. This is an example of an individual who was allegedly smart enough to get into law school, graduate, pass the bar, and now he can't survive?

Geez, file BK. It's only money. Get a life. There are people out there with a lot worse problems then yours. Like I said, no sympathy for a down and out lawyer. Fuck them, and fuck MTal. Get a life loser.

[fatduck]

that is the greatest u mad picture of all time

[FiveSermon]

And you people want to be my lawyer. Fucking pathetic.

This is not an example of a homeless kid or a mentally deficient person. This is an example of an individual who was allegedly smart enough to get into law school, graduate, pass the bar, and now he can't survive?

Geez, file BK. It's only money. Get a life. There are people out there with a lot worse problems then yours. Like I said, no sympathy for a down and out lawyer. Fuck them, and fuck MTal. Get a life loser.

Are you dumb? Filing bankruptcy won't help with his student loans. Geez. Get a life. Maybe you should grow up before talking to adults.

[2L2011]

It was posted on "JD underground" a place that makes wikipedia look like westlaw.

[JazzOne]

And you people want to be my lawyer. Fucking pathetic.

This is not an example of a homeless kid or a mentally deficient person. This is an example of an individual who was allegedly smart enough to get into law school, graduate, pass the bar, and now he can't survive?

Geez, file BK. It's only money. Get a life. There are people out there with a lot worse problems then yours. Like I said, no sympathy for a down and out lawyer. Fuck them, and fuck MTal. Get a life loser.

lol

You have it all figured out! I suggest you take out loans for the best LS you can get into and then file bankruptcy afterward. It'll work. Trust me.

ETA: Oops, I got trolled. Good one.

[2L2011]

True, but they'll only KEEP you in you put out.......so I guess you'll be getting tenure then!

I'll definitely get hired. I'm a hot girl.

[flcath]

And you people want to be my lawyer. Fucking pathetic.

This is not an example of a homeless kid or a mentally deficient person. This is an example of an individual who was allegedly smart enough to get into law school, graduate, pass the bar, and now he can't survive?

Geez, file BK. It's only money. Get a life. There are people out there with a lot worse problems then yours. Like I said, no sympathy for a down and out lawyer. Fuck them, and fuck MTal. Get a life loser.

Are you dumb? Filing bankruptcy won't help with his student loans. Geez. Get a life. Maybe you should grow up before talking to adults.

Step 1: Get as many credit cards with as high a credit line as you can

Step 2: Buy as much gold, silver, platinum, certified gemstones, etc. on credit as you can. You are entering the speculation business.

Step 3: Over the course of the next year, sell all of your gold, silver, platinum, certified gemstones, etc. for cash for roughly the same price as you bought them. You are leaving the speculation business.

Step 4: Use cash from successful business venture to pay off non-dischargable student loans.

Step 5: Declare BK on maxed out credit cards. You failed as an entrepreneur, but you deserve a second chance at life.

[flcath]

And you people want to be my lawyer. Fucking pathetic.

This is not an example of a homeless kid or a mentally deficient person. This is an example of an individual who was allegedly smart enough to get into law school, graduate, pass the bar, and now he can't survive?

Geez, file BK. It's only money. Get a life. There are people out there with a lot worse problems then yours. Like I said, no sympathy for a down and out lawyer. Fuck them, and fuck MTal. Get a life loser.

Are you dumb? Filing bankruptcy won't help with his student loans. Geez. Get a life. Maybe you should grow up before talking to adults.

Step 1: Get as many credit cards with as high a credit line as you can

Step 2: Buy as much gold, silver, platinum, certified gemstones, etc. on credit as you can. You are entering the speculation business.

Step 3: Over the course of the next year, sell all of your gold, silver, platinum, certified gemstones, etc. for cash for roughly the same price as you bought them. You are leaving the speculation business.

Step 4: Use cash from successful business venture to pay off non-dischargable student loans.

Step 5: Declare BK on maxed out credit cards. You failed as an entrepreneur, but you deserve a second chance at life.

Step 6: Retain recent TTT law school graduate for your criminal defense...

You got out of debt, avoided homelessness (federal prison = warm, with free food), and employed a fellow LS grad.

[r6_philly]

Step 1: Get as many credit cards with as high a credit line as you can

Step 2: Buy as much gold, silver, platinum, certified gemstones, etc. on credit as you can. You are entering the speculation business.

Step 3: Over the course of the next year, sell all of your gold, silver, platinum, certified gemstones, etc. for cash for roughly the same price as you bought them. You are leaving the speculation business.

Step 4: Use cash from successful business venture to pay off non-dischargable student loans.

Step 5: Declare BK on maxed out credit cards. You failed as an entrepreneur, but you deserve a second chance at life.

I think before they changed BK laws a lot of people did this. It's a lot harder to discharge everything now if you have the income potential.