Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

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javancho
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby javancho » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:47 pm

alpha24 - I think your "discrimination" argument is a very bad one.

The fact is that legal texts in the US are in English. That is not the fault of the ABA or law schools. By having the LSAT in English, the schools and the ABA want to know what is your capability to interpret these pre-existing documents.

If your arguments were true, then USPTO (patents) would be discriminating against those that don't understand the language of science. Or engineering schools, by requiring a GRE, would be discriminating against those that can't interpret the language of mathematics.

Going into these schools or organizations is not a right, but a privilege. If English is your problem, then learn it. Nobody is preventing you, in any way, from doing so.

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bergg007
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby bergg007 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:49 pm

alpha24 wrote:It seems a irony but I can tell you in italy law schools do not require any entry test for an american or canadian a simple certificate of italian language proficiency would be enough to get admission. Under a multicultural perspective law schools would welcome someone coming form overseas to study italian law.. the point is that nobody wants to study italian law!

:-)


Is there law in Italy?

firemed
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby firemed » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:51 pm

alpha24 wrote:It seems a irony but I can tell you in italy law schools do not require any entry test for an american or canadian a simple certificate of italian language proficiency would be enough to get admission. Under a multicultural perspective law schools would welcome someone coming form overseas to study italian law.. the point is that nobody wants to study italian law!

:-)


Um.... my wife lived in Italy for a year... so I can say with some certainty that the Italians have a tendency to be xenophobic, overly conservative, and arrogant, and probably any American or Canadian graduate of a law school there would have a hard time finding employment unless their Italian was as good as the English requirement here to pass the LSAT.

AztecaRex
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby AztecaRex » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:44 pm

firemed wrote:
alpha24 wrote:It seems a irony but I can tell you in italy law schools do not require any entry test for an american or canadian a simple certificate of italian language proficiency would be enough to get admission. Under a multicultural perspective law schools would welcome someone coming form overseas to study italian law.. the point is that nobody wants to study italian law!

:-)


Um.... my wife lived in Italy for a year... so I can say with some certainty that the Italians have a tendency to be xenophobic, overly conservative, and arrogant, and probably any American or Canadian graduate of a law school there would have a hard time finding employment unless their Italian was as good as the English requirement here to pass the LSAT.


Americans have a tendency to be stupid, privileged, self-hating, and obese, but you don't hear me slamming you guys. And I've lived here going 4 years now. Let's not throw around idiotic stereotypes--there are foolish people everywhere.

As for the OP's question: fratello, I feel your pain, but I for one can appreciate that the LSAT is in English. The LSAT is a very simple test linguistically--it's only the time constraints that makes it seem difficult at all. Given infinite time, any average person could make a 180. The time constraints are meant to keep you thinking on your feet, which is what a good lawyer does. And the LSAT measures neither English nor intelligence--it just helps predict how well you'll do in law school.

firemed
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby firemed » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:51 pm

AztecaRex wrote:
firemed wrote:
Um.... my wife lived in Italy for a year... so I can say with some certainty that the Italians have a tendency to be xenophobic, overly conservative, and arrogant, and probably any American or Canadian graduate of a law school there would have a hard time finding employment unless their Italian was as good as the English requirement here to pass the LSAT.


Americans have a tendency to be stupid, privileged, self-hating, and obese, but you don't hear me slamming you guys. And I've lived here going 4 years now. Let's not throw around idiotic stereotypes--there are foolish people everywhere.

As for the OP's question: fratello, I feel your pain, but I for one can appreciate that the LSAT is in English. The LSAT is a very simple test linguistically--it's only the time constraints that makes it seem difficult at all. Given infinite time, any average person could make a 180. The time constraints are meant to keep you thinking on your feet, which is what a good lawyer does. And the LSAT measures neither English nor intelligence--it just helps predict how well you'll do in law school.

:lol: :lol: The bolded is a slam!

My point was simply that an American without the Italian ability to pass a test like the LSAT in Italian would have just as much trouble getting a job in Italy as an Italian would have getting a job in America with poor English skills.

And as for our bolded: People are assholes everywhere. We agree. But for the OP to claim that people here could go to Italy and get a job... LOL! That just isn't the case, and we both know it.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby TatteredDignity » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:55 pm

Isn't it possible that the OP is sufficiently English-proficient but isn't good at the LSAT? You know, just as 50% of native english speakers aren't? I guess I don't know why we're assuming he'd be significantly better at the LSAT if it were magically in Italian.

firemed
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby firemed » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:03 pm

0LNewbie wrote:Isn't it possible that the OP is sufficiently English-proficient but isn't good at the LSAT? You know, just as 50% of native english speakers aren't? I guess I don't know why we're assuming he'd be significantly better at the LSAT if it were magically in Italian.


Possible. I mean, 150 is the median. And it isn't the strongest correlation... so it is possible the OP could do quite well in a LLM program (I think that is what he said he did) but not necessarily do well on the LSAT.

Doesn't really matter though. Obviously the OP needs to work on their english skills (his writing is good, but needs more refinement), prep more for the LSAT, and get above a 160 to get into a LLB program in Canada. He can have my spot at Dal if he wants. I can't afford to go there even though I want to.

alpha24
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby alpha24 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:30 pm

When you will go to law school you'll find out that discrimination does not requires that it is intentional ! there are so many issues of unintentional discrimination under both formal and substantive equality in NorthAmerica this is just one of the many.... anyway I don t want to be overcritical or pessimist there also many other positive things.. I am just raising an issue that's all...
:-)

firemed
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby firemed » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:11 pm

alpha24 wrote:When you will go to law school you'll find out that discrimination does not requires that it is intentional ! there are so many issues of unintentional discrimination under both formal and substantive equality in NorthAmerica this is just one of the many.... anyway I don t want to be overcritical or pessimist there also many other positive things.. I am just raising an issue that's all...
:-)


Dude, I hear that you feel you could do well, and that it seems unfair. But while I am a big supporter of fighting for those who are being discriminated against... I am also a big supporter of people being able to do their jobs. A man with no arms cannot be a paramedic, a woman with no legs cannot be a firefighter, and someone who cannot hear can't be a music critic. Being a lawyer requires a very, very good grasp of English as a language.

Since you are already in Canada, and your english is obviously acceptable, have you considered learning french? I hear it is not as hard for romance language speakers to adapt to other romance languages. From there you could apply to McGill which doesn't even require the LSAT, and get your joint civil/common degree. You would even have a leg up on civil law since Italy is based off that system.

ETA: oh, and my sociology degree gave me a perfectly good understanding of unintentional institutional discrimination. But there has to be a realistic line drawn somewhere.

r6_philly
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby r6_philly » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:15 pm

firemed wrote:someone who cannot hear can't be a music critic


I am fairly certain this isn't always true. Beethoven lost his hearing. :D

firemed
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby firemed » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:17 pm

r6_philly wrote:
firemed wrote:someone who cannot hear can't be a music critic


I am fairly certain this isn't always true. Beethoven lost his hearing. :D


And continued to compose... not criticize. :P

r6_philly
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby r6_philly » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:18 pm

firemed wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
firemed wrote:someone who cannot hear can't be a music critic


I am fairly certain this isn't always true. Beethoven lost his hearing. :D


And continued to compose... not criticize. :P


He did criticize, because he can still perceive the music in his mind. I think a lot of his conversation books were about how music should be composed and performed, even though he couldn't do it himself.

firemed
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby firemed » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:20 pm

r6_philly wrote:
firemed wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
firemed wrote:someone who cannot hear can't be a music critic


I am fairly certain this isn't always true. Beethoven lost his hearing. :D


And continued to compose... not criticize. :P


He did criticize, because he can still perceive the music in his mind. I think a lot of his conversation books were about how music should be composed and performed, even though he couldn't do it himself.



Touche.

Am I going to get to say anything in a thread where you won't correct me? First stats, now this! :lol:

r6_philly
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby r6_philly » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:20 pm

firemed wrote:Touche.

Am I going to get to say anything in a thread where you won't correct me? First stats, now this! :lol:


That's what old folks do. 8)

champsound
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby champsound » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:25 pm

r6_philly wrote:
firemed wrote:Touche.

Am I going to get to say anything in a thread where you won't correct me? First stats, now this! :lol:


That's what old folks do. 8)

Is this what law school classes will be like? Old folks owning young kids?

r6_philly
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby r6_philly » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:29 pm

champsound wrote:Is this what law school classes will be like? Old folks owning young kids?


Depends on the old folks. Remember some of us were cut-throat competitive gunners when we were younger. So we are wiser AND we know the tricks. Muahhhahahaha. :lol:

AztecaRex
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby AztecaRex » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:31 pm

firemed wrote:
alpha24 wrote:When you will go to law school you'll find out that discrimination does not requires that it is intentional ! there are so many issues of unintentional discrimination under both formal and substantive equality in NorthAmerica this is just one of the many.... anyway I don t want to be overcritical or pessimist there also many other positive things.. I am just raising an issue that's all...
:-)


Since you are already in Canada, and your english is obviously acceptable, have you considered learning french? I hear it is not as hard for romance language speakers to adapt to other romance languages. From there you could apply to McGill which doesn't even require the LSAT, and get your joint civil/common degree. You would even have a leg up on civil law since Italy is based off that system.

ETA: oh, and my sociology degree gave me a perfectly good understanding of unintentional institutional discrimination. But there has to be a realistic line drawn somewhere.


French is the prodigal son of Latin who ran off, got drunk with hookers, and did his own thing. OP, just go with English. :wink:

And sorry about the above slam--I meant to say it to mean that I don't go around bashing Americans willy-nilly (like the French do :) )

firemed
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby firemed » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:38 pm

AztecaRex wrote:
French is the prodigal son of Latin who ran off, got drunk with hookers, and did his own thing. OP, just go with English. :wink:

And sorry about the above slam--I meant to say it to mean that I don't go around bashing Americans willy-nilly (like the French do :) )


To be fair, we slam the French a lot too. Though I have to say that if I had my life to live over again I would have gotten a nursing degree and joined the Foreign Legion, gotten my french really good, and then applied to McGill. So, obviously, I am biased about that path.

The problem I see with the OP's point is that he is complaining that the LSAT is in english, but then states his english isn't the problem. Either it is or it isn't. Can't be both, unless I am missing something.

AztecaRex
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby AztecaRex » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:48 pm

firemed wrote:
AztecaRex wrote:
French is the prodigal son of Latin who ran off, got drunk with hookers, and did his own thing. OP, just go with English. :wink:

And sorry about the above slam--I meant to say it to mean that I don't go around bashing Americans willy-nilly (like the French do :) )


To be fair, we slam the French a lot too. Though I have to say that if I had my life to live over again I would have gotten a nursing degree and joined the Foreign Legion, gotten my french really good, and then applied to McGill. So, obviously, I am biased about that path.

The problem I see with the OP's point is that he is complaining that the LSAT is in english, but then states his english isn't the problem. Either it is or it isn't. Can't be both, unless I am missing something.


Well, no matter how proficient you become with a language, you'll probably always prefer to revert to your mother tongue in cases where time constraints are present and attention to detail is very important. I think what the OP is getting at is that his English is fine for the purposes of law school, but he doesn't want to sacrifice the few extra points he'd like get were he to take the test in Italian. But as I stated above, the LSAT is very, very learnable, and plenty of people (including myself) have broken 170s despite not having English as our native tongue. So suck it up, fratello, and get cracking 8)

firemed
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby firemed » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:58 pm

AztecaRex wrote:
Well, no matter how proficient you become with a language, you'll probably always prefer to revert to your mother tongue in cases where time constraints are present and attention to detail is very important. I think what the OP is getting at is that his English is fine for the purposes of law school, but he doesn't want to sacrifice the few extra points he'd like get were he to take the test in Italian. But as I stated above, the LSAT is very, very learnable, and plenty of people (including myself) have broken 170s despite not having English as our native tongue. So suck it up, fratello, and get cracking 8)


In the US (don't know about Canada, but I think it is the same) you have only a few hours to put out a dense and well written set of essays (and occasional multiple choice) in English. So I agree with your advice: The OP needs to figure out how to do it, as good practice. If nothing else for the fact that if he goes to a US school his future employment is hugely dependent on his LS grades, which are almost entirely dependent on his test taking abilities under timed conditions... in English.

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bergg007
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby bergg007 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:04 pm

AztecaRex wrote:
firemed wrote:
AztecaRex wrote:
French is the prodigal son of Latin who ran off, got drunk with hookers, and did his own thing. OP, just go with English. :wink:

And sorry about the above slam--I meant to say it to mean that I don't go around bashing Americans willy-nilly (like the French do :) )


To be fair, we slam the French a lot too. Though I have to say that if I had my life to live over again I would have gotten a nursing degree and joined the Foreign Legion, gotten my french really good, and then applied to McGill. So, obviously, I am biased about that path.

The problem I see with the OP's point is that he is complaining that the LSAT is in english, but then states his english isn't the problem. Either it is or it isn't. Can't be both, unless I am missing something.


Well, no matter how proficient you become with a language, you'll probably always prefer to revert to your mother tongue in cases where time constraints are present and attention to detail is very important. I think what the OP is getting at is that his English is fine for the purposes of law school, but he doesn't want to sacrifice the few extra points he'd like get were he to take the test in Italian. But as I stated above, the LSAT is very, very learnable, and plenty of people (including myself) have broken 170s despite not having English as our native tongue. So suck it up, fratello, and get cracking 8)



or be Italian and bribe somebody.

In bocca del lupo, Signore.

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$1.99
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby $1.99 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:15 pm

stop being a whiner man. it is common sense that an admission test to go to school in Canada or U.S. would be in English. same reason the bar exam is in english too.

alpha24
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby alpha24 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:49 pm

Well with regards to "bribery" as you mentioned, if it was given to me the option of paying "higher tuition fees" I would do it right away...
....but the problem is that law schools do not feature a law program designed for lawyers from civil law countries because there is not enough market demand....:-)

FiveSermon
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Re: Lsat in your own native language for overseas applicants ?

Postby FiveSermon » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:45 am

Don't go to law school.




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