Honesty/Transcripts question - UPDATED OP

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hopefulfls
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Honesty/Transcripts question - UPDATED OP

Postby hopefulfls » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:54 pm

I have applied to several law schools for this cycle, but I have lied on my applications by omission. Specifically, there were schools that I attended that I did not mention on my applications or as part of my lsac file. No one has noticed these, and to tell the truth I don't anticipate they would. Turning them in would really hurt my GPA.

However, after further thought, I don't want to go through law school with this on my back. I also don't want to risk it being an issue come time for passing the bar. Therefore I have decided to go ahead and have the transcripts submitted and I will have to be ready to explain why I skipped around so much.

My question is this: Should I withdraw all of my current applications and just reapply next cycle, or should I just leave them active since they will find out about the transcripts as soon as they are received by LSAC and then just answer the questions as they come in?

***UPDATE: I withdrew all of my applications. I turned in all of my transcripts. My GPA is now a 2.00. I am going to have to do well on my retake this summer and write a hell of an addendum for the next admission cycle.
Last edited by hopefulfls on Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mala2
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby mala2 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:55 pm

I'm confused. details please

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JazzOne
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby JazzOne » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:56 pm

hopefulfls wrote:I have applied to several law schools for this cycle, but I have lied on my applications by omission. Specifically, there were schools that I attended that I did not mention on my applications or as part of my lsac file. No one has noticed these, and to tell the truth I don't anticipate they would. Turning them in would really hurt my GPA.

However, after further thought, I don't want to go through law school with this on my back. I also don't want to risk it being an issue come time for passing the bar. Therefore I have decided to go ahead and have the transcripts submitted and I will have to be ready to explain why I skipped around so much.

My question is this: Should I withdraw all of my current applications and just reapply next cycle, or should I just leave them active since they will find out about the transcripts as soon as they are received by LSAC and then just answer the questions as they come in?

Image

hopefulfls
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby hopefulfls » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:10 pm

Not trolling. You can't make crap like this up. Here goes:

1. Went to School A, stayed a semester and a half. Was unhappy, left midway through the semester. Didn't officially drop out, hence BAD GPA.

2. Started School B, stayed for a while, then transferred to School C. However, partway through that semester decided to move back home to School B. Didn't finish the courses, didn't drop out. Ended up with some good grades (not sure how) and some bad ones for that semester.

3. When I got back to School B, it was too late to enroll, so I enrolled in courses at School (Community College) D. After I enrolled in the courses, School B told me that wouldn't accept them. Again, I didn't drop the classes in time, so bad grades.

4. Back at School B until my girlfriend (who was also at school B) graduated. Then transferred to School E to follow her to grad school. Of course she decided partway through that semester she HATED the school, so we moved back home.

5. Went back to School B and finished my degree.

School B doesn't know about ANY of this, so when they submitted my transcript to LSAC, it was considered complete. I haven't filled out any applications that asked "explain why there are breaks in your academic record", so no direct lie.

Of course, none of this is the point. I was stupid and I know that. I am going to own up to it, and if it costs me a chance at law school, then so be it, it is better than getting into law school and never being able to pass the bar.

The question is should I withdraw the applications with omissions, or simply explain the situation when (if) they come to me and ask why they are getting new transcripts.

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JazzOne
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby JazzOne » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:20 pm

hopefulfls wrote:Not trolling. You can't make crap like this up. Here goes:

1. Went to School A, stayed a semester and a half. Was unhappy, left midway through the semester. Didn't officially drop out, hence BAD GPA.

2. Started School B, stayed for a while, then transferred to School C. However, partway through that semester decided to move back home to School B. Didn't finish the courses, didn't drop out. Ended up with some good grades (not sure how) and some bad ones for that semester.

3. When I got back to School B, it was too late to enroll, so I enrolled in courses at School (Community College) D. After I enrolled in the courses, School B told me that wouldn't accept them. Again, I didn't drop the classes in time, so bad grades.

4. Back at School B until my girlfriend (who was also at school B) graduated. Then transferred to School E to follow her to grad school. Of course she decided partway through that semester she HATED the school, so we moved back home.

5. Went back to School B and finished my degree.

School B doesn't know about ANY of this, so when they submitted my transcript to LSAC, it was considered complete. I haven't filled out any applications that asked "explain why there are breaks in your academic record", so no direct lie.

Of course, none of this is the point. I was stupid and I know that. I am going to own up to it, and if it costs me a chance at law school, then so be it, it is better than getting into law school and never being able to pass the bar.

The question is should I withdraw the applications with omissions, or simply explain the situation when (if) they come to me and ask why they are getting new transcripts.

If you're really not a troll, that's a tough situation. I almost never advise anyone to see an admissions consultant, but I think you need some professional advice. You might be able to get a late withdrawal from some of those classes if you go about it the right way. In my opinion, you really need advice from someone who has inside knowledge of college institutions. Such a person might be able to tell you how to navigate around this mess. The worst thing you can do is fail to disclose. I believe that LSAC requires transcripts from every college attended prior to receipt of your first UG degree. Failing to disclose this will almost surely be considered dishonest and a problem for bar admission.

TheStrand
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby TheStrand » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:23 pm

Wow. I think with a history that complicated, you obviously can't plead out and just say "hey I just forgot to submit these to LSAC." The fact of it is that you lied initially, and it seems doubtful schools are going to give you points for honesty, especially since when you submit applications to them you certified that the applications were true and complete. I would withdraw the apps and try next year with the full transcripts. If you submit them now they're going to have a lot of questions about why they didn't receive transcripts that were old and complete, especially since most schools have a section with something like "list all degree-granting institutions you've attended" and will know that you intentionally left them off. It's going to be a huge black mark on your app. At least if you withdraw there won't be an opportunity to ask why you didn't submit them in the first place and when you reapply they'll consider your app without knowing this (though there's usually a small "did you apply to _____ previously" it doesn't go in depth as to why you withdrew).

hopefulfls
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby hopefulfls » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:24 pm

Like I said, not a troll.

And I probably won't go back and challenge anything, because this all happened over the course of about 5 years, and ended almost 10 years ago, so getting things changed probably won't happen.

I know I am going to have to fess up if I want a chance to be a lawyer.

The question is just do I withdraw the current apps and just be truthful next cycle, or do I leave the apps and be ready to explain when the inevitable questions come.

hopefulfls
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby hopefulfls » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:27 pm

TheStrand wrote:Wow. I think with a history that complicated, you obviously can't plead out and just say "hey I just forgot to submit these to LSAC." The fact of it is that you lied initially, and it seems doubtful schools are going to give you points for honesty, especially since when you submit applications to them you certified that the applications were true and complete. I would withdraw the apps and try next year with the full transcripts. If you submit them now they're going to have a lot of questions about why they didn't receive transcripts that were old and complete, especially since most schools have a section with something like "list all degree-granting institutions you've attended" and will know that you intentionally left them off. It's going to be a huge black mark on your app. At least if you withdraw there won't be an opportunity to ask why you didn't submit them in the first place and when you reapply they'll consider your app without knowing this (though there's usually a small "did you apply to _____ previously" it doesn't go in depth as to why you withdrew).


This is kind of what I was thinking. And, I could just do myself the favor of not applying to any of the same schools next cycle. Of course, if I decide thats the plan, should I just leave the current apps and give explaining myself a shot when it comes up since the worst they can do is reject me? Or, is that the worst they can do?

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MrKappus
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby MrKappus » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:40 pm

You should probably ask JazzOne to stop extensively quoting posts in which you admit to lying.

hopefulfls
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby hopefulfls » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:42 pm

MrKappus wrote:You should probably ask JazzOne to stop extensively quoting posts in which you admit to lying.


Not sure why it matters if I am going to correct my mistake anyways.

dissonance1848
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby dissonance1848 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:45 pm

Heard of someone who didn't send in all GPA transcripts, stuff went out as incomplete file, no one cared.

hopefulfls
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby hopefulfls » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:46 pm

Is this sufficient for a request? I don't think I need to go into any more detail, does anyone else?


Dear Admissions Officer,

I would like to officially request for my application for admission to your law school be withdrawn. My name is XXXXXX and my LSAC ID# is XXXXXX. I thank you in advance for your assistance in this matter.

Respecfully,

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

TheStrand
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby TheStrand » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:01 pm

hopefulfls wrote:Is this sufficient for a request? I don't think I need to go into any more detail, does anyone else?


Dear Admissions Officer,

I would like to officially request for my application for admission to your law school be withdrawn. My name is XXXXXX and my LSAC ID# is XXXXXX. I thank you in advance for your assistance in this matter.

Respecfully,

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX



I wasn't aware that you were willing to cut off all ties to the schools you've applied to this cycle. If you really have no interest going to any of these schools again, I would maybe be tempted to let them be and wait for the questions. But...to be slightly paranoid and speculative (I really have no basis for thinking this at all, I'm just thinking of the worst case scenarios), it might be possible that a school might be offended enough by your omissions that they contact LSAC and tell them you've certified applications you knew to be incomplete/false and they in turn might...I don't know, blacklist you or something. But obviously just guessing here.

If you're going to withdraw, what you've posted is more or less what I sent to schools I withdrew from and nobody asked any further questions (probably were just glad to have one fewer app to have to read).

hopefulfls
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby hopefulfls » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:04 pm

TheStrand wrote:
hopefulfls wrote:Is this sufficient for a request? I don't think I need to go into any more detail, does anyone else?


Dear Admissions Officer,

I would like to officially request for my application for admission to your law school be withdrawn. My name is XXXXXX and my LSAC ID# is XXXXXX. I thank you in advance for your assistance in this matter.

Respecfully,

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX



I wasn't aware that you were willing to cut off all ties to the schools you've applied to this cycle. If you really have no interest going to any of these schools again, I would maybe be tempted to let them be and wait for the questions. But...to be slightly paranoid and speculative (I really have no basis for thinking this at all, I'm just thinking of the worst case scenarios), it might be possible that a school might be offended enough by your omissions that they contact LSAC and tell them you've certified applications you knew to be incomplete/false and they in turn might...I don't know, blacklist you or something. But obviously just guessing here.

If you're going to withdraw, what you've posted is more or less what I sent to schools I withdrew from and nobody asked any further questions (probably were just glad to have one fewer app to have to read).



I am willing to cut off ties only because I didn't apply to too many schools and I would rather cut ties than risk screwing myself in the future. Plus, the extra time gives me a chance to retake because even though my score isn't bad, I have a feeling I will need a better one once my new GPA is calculated.

TheStrand
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby TheStrand » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:20 pm

Good luck.

hopefulfls
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby hopefulfls » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:20 pm

Just sent out withdrawal emails to all of the schools. I think this is the only right/smart thing to do. Thanks to everyone who advised. I will have all of my transcripts sent in, I will study and retake in June, and I will apply EA and maybe an ED in October.

rose711
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby rose711 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:30 pm

Oh wow. You withdrew based on what people here said? Did you even talk to an admissions officer/adviser or a grown-up professional?

I like to think there would have been another way to handle this, but I guess it is too late now.

Good luck!

gens1tb
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby gens1tb » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:33 pm

I have to be honest, I don't understand even slightly how withdrawal was the best option.

hopefulfls
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby hopefulfls » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:33 pm

rose711 wrote:Oh wow. You withdrew based on what people here said? Did you even talk to an admissions officer/adviser or a grown-up professional?

I like to think there would have been another way to handle this, but I guess it is too late now.

Good luck!


I think I knew what I was going to do anyways. It had been eating me up that I did it that way and I will just feel better putting in applications that are completely truthful. I can work on explaining the GPA (and I can probably get in somewhere), but I just didn't feel right starting my law school journey on the wrong foot.

hopefulfls
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby hopefulfls » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:35 pm

gens1tb wrote:I have to be honest, I don't understand even slightly how withdrawal was the best option.


What would have been a better option? Turn in the transcripts and say "hey, I lied to you, but I decided to be honest and fix it". I just see them going, "umm, no thanks".

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BlakcMajikc
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby BlakcMajikc » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:41 pm

Go see an admissions consultant. Seriously. You could see how much you have to reveal if some or none of the credits counted towards your undergraduate degree etc. I would get the admission counselor's advice and then ask an attorney about any C&F issues with their recommendation.

I know you already withdrew, but I would still get professional advice.
Last edited by BlakcMajikc on Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gens1tb
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby gens1tb » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:43 pm

Well, those Fs you received and the school changes you've made are never going away. It doesn't matter if you submit this year or next.

I would believe there's a better way to paint the situation, you're making everything accurate before decisions have been made on your applications.

hopefulfls
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby hopefulfls » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:49 pm

gens1tb wrote:Well, those Fs you received and the school changes you've made are never going away. It doesn't matter if you submit this year or next.

I would believe there's a better way to paint the situation, you're making everything accurate before decisions have been made on your applications.


Well, if any of the schools ask why, I can explain the situation and see what they suggest. If they just withdraw me, that's fine too.

I don't think the F's are going away. I just figure I will be on better footing with an application where they are presented up front instead of me having to make adjustments to my application.

TheStrand
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby TheStrand » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:40 am

I suggested withdrawal because of how many missing/incomplete transcripts he had. You have to report these. According to LSAC you have to submit transcripts from ALL of the following:

* Undergraduate degree-granting institution
* graduate degree-granting institution(s)
* law/medical/professional institutions
* institutions where college-level courses were taken while in high school
* institutions where summer or evening courses did not count toward a degree
* institutions that have closed
* institutions from which you have only withdrawn or incomplete grades
* institutions where you have recently enrolled
* overseas study.
There are also additional reporting requirements/affirmations required by various schools.

All of the situations OP described about his transcripts fit into these. He/she needed to disclose these initially and didn't, and there's no way to frame this as if OP did not lie. OP also indicated a willingness to withdraw and try again next cycle. I could see leaning against withdrawal if someone absolutely has to go this year, but OP did not. Being upfront and disclosing at the outset is infinitely better than tainting your apps with a lie and getting (likely unfavorable) decisions this year. Apply this year w/ terrible gpa + stigma < apply next year w/terrible gpa

Also, there's a chance that next year by having all of them upfront, OP can also submit an addendum explaining the bad grades and withdrawals, which perhaps this year he/she would not be able to do if apps are complete

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well-hello-there
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Re: Honesty/Transcripts question

Postby well-hello-there » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:25 am

JazzOne wrote:Failing to disclose this will almost surely be considered dishonest and a problem for bar admission.

There is no way any bar would ever find out unless you disclosed it to them!




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