Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

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CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:32 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:beach-terror: What source do you have for the ABA stating that Villanova Law School's fraudulent reporting won't result in probation--especially since the investigation is still ongoing ?


The adminstration here has told us that the ABA said that the scandal will not result in accredidation probation.
Last edited by CChuff on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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robotclubmember
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby robotclubmember » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:32 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Just received a rude PM from CChuf. Do you expect Villanova Law School's actions to go unnoticed, unpunished & excused ?


I think that the ethics of Villanova's prior administration is par for the course in the legal profession, sadly. If it was a school that anyone cared about to start with, this would be a huge deal. It's just Villanova though. The real hit comes in rankings since they can't get caught lying their rankings up the ladder anymore.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:33 pm

robotclubmember wrote:The transparency reminds me of the tearful apologies that come from athletes when rumors about steroids or whatever start to surface. What I'm saying is, his hand was probably forced somehow, so he got on top of it out of necessity. I have no facts to support that and will freely admit so. But the impetus of the standard mea culpa press releases and firings is usually having your hand forced, eg, someone who wasn't going to be quiet found out. Deans don't trash their school's reputations unless they have to, even if the mess was inherited.

So your argument is that transparency itself is a sign of covert wrongdoing? I'm just kind of boggled, here, by what you're trying to say.

Also, please stop trying to inject Latin (e.g., mea culpa) into your posts. It doesn't make you look smarter.

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beach_terror
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby beach_terror » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:33 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:beach_terror, I've seen you mention a lack of issues with the law school grades of current students several times. Not sure that has anything to do with anything. Perhaps you can explain where you are going with that?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. But...

In relation to current grades, the only justifiable reason for the legal employers to not hire our students is if our grades are somehow inflated (which has been an accusation). The thrust of the argument here is that current students are going to be screwed because employers won't believe the accuracy of our class rankings. However, the administration reviewed them and they're going to be audited as well.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:36 pm

Which further shows that the investigation is not over & that probation is still possible.

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beach_terror
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby beach_terror » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:38 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Which further shows that the investigation is not over & that probation is still possible.

I mean I guess, but it's also possible that we've been secretly hiding a new Guantanamo Bay in the basement of our new building.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:39 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Which further shows that the investigation is not over & that probation is still possible.


Anything is possible. But from what has been discovered, the school will not be on probation. We can only work with the information currently available, stop injecting facts that makes your argument appear more complete. It doesn't work.

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robotclubmember
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby robotclubmember » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:39 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
robotclubmember wrote:The transparency reminds me of the tearful apologies that come from athletes when rumors about steroids or whatever start to surface. What I'm saying is, his hand was probably forced somehow, so he got on top of it out of necessity. I have no facts to support that and will freely admit so. But the impetus of the standard mea culpa press releases and firings is usually having your hand forced, eg, someone who wasn't going to be quiet found out. Deans don't trash their school's reputations unless they have to, even if the mess was inherited.

So your argument is that transparency itself is a sign of covert wrongdoing? I'm just kind of boggled, here, by what you're trying to say.

Also, please stop trying to inject Latin (e.g., mea culpa) into your posts. It doesn't make you look smarter.


I picked mea culpa because it was the smallest number of letters to express my thoughts. I switched from QWERTY to DVORAK two days ago and am learning to type all over again. WPM nosedived. It hurts, mentally and physically lol.

I'm offering a personal opinion based on intuition. Some of us are skeptical people. It never hurts to share an opinion, especially one that is reasonable considering the nature of people, the nature of fraud, and the nature of the legal profession. But I respect your disagreement and your position.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:40 pm

CChuff wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Just received a rude PM from CChuf. Do you expect Villanova Law School's actions to go unnoticed, unpunished & excused ?

Hahaha, Canadian Wolf is worse than our previous Dean.

Don't start attacking other posters. That goes as a warning to everyone.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby Aqualibrium » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:41 pm

beach_terror wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:beach_terror, I've seen you mention a lack of issues with the law school grades of current students several times. Not sure that has anything to do with anything. Perhaps you can explain where you are going with that?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. But...

In relation to current grades, the only justifiable reason for the legal employers to not hire our students is if our grades are somehow inflated (which has been an accusation). The thrust of the argument here is that current students are going to be screwed because employers won't believe the accuracy of our class rankings. However, the administration reviewed them and they're going to be audited as well.



That's just it. Grade inflation doesn't affect the "accuracy" of class rankings. The term grade inflation simply refers to the trend of increasing the curve so that the average gpa goes up across the board. It's not something you review or audit to find out about. It's a policy. The curve is either a 3.X or it's not. The median for the class of 2012 is what it is. Regardless of what the curve or the median is, the accuracy of class rank can't be affected.

For example: Tulane had around a 3.0 median, but this year switched to a 3.3. They "inflated" grades so that the average gpa's of all students would be higher. That doesn't affect the accuracy of class rankings (because class rankings are still based upon your gpa relative to your peers), nor does it generally affect hiring in anything more than a psychological way (it looks better to be a top 30% student with a 3.6 than it does to be a top 30% student with a 3.0).

The only kind of law school grading scandal I can conceive of that would affect class rank accuracy or hiring is some situation where there is not true anonymity in testing/grading (pay for play/playing favorites/etc...). That isn't an issue with Nova, and no one is speculating that it is.
Last edited by Aqualibrium on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:41 pm

The good news is that because of the extensive publicity, any ABA sanctions/punishment is likely to be made public. No private reprimands expected herew.

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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby robotclubmember » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:48 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:The good news is that because of the extensive publicity, any ABA sanctions/punishment is likely to be made public. No private reprimands expected herew.


Before issuing a punishment, most regulatory bodies base it partly off of the remedies taken already and the current "tone at the top." Considering that, I think Villanova's current stance deeply mitigates the potential for punitive measures. Transparency was necessary and potentially driven by self-interest for this reason. What I'm saying is that the transparency of the new Dean may mean he's a hell of a guy and a straight shooter, or he is doing what is necessary to protect the school's reputation, and it would be painfully naive to assume one or the other.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:51 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:The good news is that because of the extensive publicity, any ABA sanctions/punishment is likely to be made public. No private reprimands expected herew.


I cannot wait until this issue is resolved. The reprucussions of this situation as far as employement and accredidation is being oversstated. But, I have said my peace. Villanova is an amazing place, with amazing people, and provides amazing oppurtunities. I do not understand those who thrive on bad news and will not venture to try. All I know is that I am very happy with my decision to attend Villanova and am confident that those of you who decide to come to Villanova will be happy with your decision as well.

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beach_terror
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby beach_terror » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:52 pm

robotclubmember wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:The good news is that because of the extensive publicity, any ABA sanctions/punishment is likely to be made public. No private reprimands expected herew.


Before issuing a punishment, most regulatory bodies base it partly off of the remedies taken already and the current "tone at the top." Considering that, I think Villanova's current stance deeply mitigates the potential for punitive measures. Transparency was necessary and potentially driven by self-interest for this reason. What I'm saying is that the transparency of the new Dean may mean he's a hell of a guy and a straight shooter, or he is doing what is necessary to protect the school's reputation, and it would be painfully naive to assume one or the other.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:53 pm

robotclubmember wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:The good news is that because of the extensive publicity, any ABA sanctions/punishment is likely to be made public. No private reprimands expected herew.


Before issuing a punishment, most regulatory bodies base it partly off of the remedies taken already and the current "tone at the top." Considering that, I think Villanova's current stance deeply mitigates the potential for punitive measures. Transparency was necessary and potentially driven by self-interest for this reason. What I'm saying is that the transparency of the new Dean may mean he's a hell of a guy and a straight shooter, or he is doing what is necessary to protect the school's reputation, and it would be painfully naive to assume one or the other.


The misstatements were discovered by Professors inside Villanova. They could have tried to cover it up and avoid this backlash. They decided against this, however. This shows the character of the new administration.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:55 pm

Actually, we are not thriving on bad news--just discussing it. You are close to the situation & may be a bit too sensitive to open, frank discussions about this matter. And understandably so. You, as a current second year Villanova Law student, are more victimized by this fraudulent reporting than others with little or no investment in Villanova Law. If you were a first year, would you consider transferring ?

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:00 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Actually, we are not thriving on bad news--just discussing it. You are close to the situation & may be a bit too sensitive to open, frank discussions about this matter. And understandably so. You, as a current Villanova Law student, are more victimized by this fraudulent reporting than others with little or no investment in Villanova Law. If you were a first year, would you consider transferring ?



No, I would not. I had the opportunity to do so last year and didn't even apply.

And trust me, I am not victimized, nor am I sensitive to open discussions. I just don't really like listening to people complain and defame a school they know nothing about.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:13 pm

You make a lot of assumptions. Regardless, all anybody needs to know is of the fraudulent reporting activity over a period of years by Villanova Law School to the ABA.

P.S. Did you even know of this intentional misreporting to the ABA last year ?

HeavenWood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:18 pm

rad law wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
robotclubmember wrote:If Villanova had any T's in iTTTs name, I TTThink iTTT's preTTTy obvious whaTTT we'd all be calling iTTT righTTT now...



VilLIENOVA


lol yes


Vanillanova what what?

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Jack Smirks
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby Jack Smirks » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:20 pm

http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/villa ... /19836437/

Villanova deserves credit for coming clean about something that a huge number of other schools are probably doing too.
Last edited by Jack Smirks on Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CJG9
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CJG9 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:21 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Actually, we are not thriving on bad news--just discussing it. You are close to the situation & may be a bit too sensitive to open, frank discussions about this matter. And understandably so. You, as a current second year Villanova Law student, are more victimized by this fraudulent reporting than others with little or no investment in Villanova Law. If you were a first year, would you consider transferring ?



I understand your concern that VLS students would be easily offended by a discussion of the scandal. However, I wouldn’t characterize some of the posts on this thread as a mere discussion. See SrLaw’s post “Who cares, Villanova still sucks” on page 2 or Robotclubmember’s post referring to VLS as a 3rd tier school run by carpetbaggers on page 3.

I’ll be honest I don’t particularly feel any special bond or sense of loyalty toward VLS (particularly not after what’s happened). I checked this forum because I wanted to see what people were saying and after seeing them I decided to respond just because of the nature of the posts I listed above. I think posts like those transform an “open, frank” discussion of the issue into an open, frank, and offensive discussion in which any student, not just those who are “too sensitive” would want to defend their school.

I think you bring up a good question about transferring. I wish that VLS would have had a system of internal controls to ensure scandals like this weren’t possible. I don’t think VLS takes full advantage of the technology that the new building offers and I don't approve of every professor I’ve taken here.

That being said, I don’t think I would transfer because, as I stated in my previous post, I don’t think the scandal is as severe as people make it out to be. I still think the new VLS building is absolutely phenomenal in terms of its capabilities and as those capabilities become fully utilized the school as a whole will improve. Most importantly, I still think that the VLS faculty members are brilliant and accomplished. I understand that other people have different opinions and so the question of transferring would reasonably and understandably have a different answer for them.

stayway
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby stayway » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:00 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
CChuff wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Just received a rude PM from CChuf. Do you expect Villanova Law School's actions to go unnoticed, unpunished & excused ?

Hahaha, Canadian Wolf is worse than our previous Dean.

Don't start attacking other posters. That goes as a warning to everyone.



LOL

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Section141
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby Section141 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:39 pm

naterj wrote:http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/villanova-law-school-admits-it-lied-to-boost-rankings-but-so/19836437/

Villanova deserves credit for coming clean about something that a huge number of other schools are probably doing too.


This is a good point. The rankings are compiled using self-reported data....hmmmm. Plus we all know how much those rankings mean anyway, especially outside T14.

As someone with an offer of acceptance, its concerning. Choosing where to spend my hard earned money and invest in my future, etc....doesn't make me feel too great about VLS (unless they offered up more $$$$).

stayway
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby stayway » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:40 pm

Section141 wrote:
naterj wrote:http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/villanova-law-school-admits-it-lied-to-boost-rankings-but-so/19836437/

Villanova deserves credit for coming clean about something that a huge number of other schools are probably doing too.


This is a good point. The rankings are compiled using self-reported data....hmmmm. Plus we all know how much those rankings mean anyway, especially outside T14.

As someone with an offer of acceptance, its concerning. Choosing where to spend my hard earned money and invest in my future, etc....doesn't make me feel too great about VLS (unless they offered up more $$$$).


If you are interested in the Philly market and VLS is the only school in the area you got accepted to, asking for more $$ wouldn't hurt.

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beach_terror
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby beach_terror » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:43 pm

nooyyllib wrote:
Section141 wrote:
naterj wrote:http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/villanova-law-school-admits-it-lied-to-boost-rankings-but-so/19836437/

Villanova deserves credit for coming clean about something that a huge number of other schools are probably doing too.


This is a good point. The rankings are compiled using self-reported data....hmmmm. Plus we all know how much those rankings mean anyway, especially outside T14.

As someone with an offer of acceptance, its concerning. Choosing where to spend my hard earned money and invest in my future, etc....doesn't make me feel too great about VLS (unless they offered up more $$$$).


If you are interested in the Philly market and VLS is the only school in the area you got accepted to, asking for more $$ wouldn't hurt.

Why would it matter if he was accepted to more Philly schools. Come on bro, getwitit.




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