Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

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CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:04 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
CChuff wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:One would be a fool to think that this scandal won't hit Villanova hard. Philly and Delaware firms can say "nothing will change" all they want, the fact is what they do is all that matters. This is going to hurt in Philly, Delaware, and every other place a Nova grad looks for employment. Anyone who doesn't think that is true is simply delusional.


Haha, great speculative statement.


Dude, if you seriously believe that blatantly lying to the aba wont add a stain to the Villanova name in the minds of employers, you really don't understand how the human mind works. Whatever adverse effect comes out of this will probably be felt least in Delaware and Philly, where Nova has established relationships and strong alumni. However, one of the firsts thing that will come to the mind of employers in places where Nova doesn't have those strong ties is this scandal. That certainly won't help any Nova student to get a job.

Reputation matters, and when the reputation that precedes you is a negative one, it matters more.

I understand your reluctance to acknowledge this. Especially since you really won't be stung by it. The people that will be are those who are right now searching for jobs, or who will be searching in the next two years or so. It's undeniable that this sort of negative press is bad. The very fact that your dean had to get on the phone with firms and explain/grovel/seek assurances that relationships wouldn't change illustrates that point.


I disagree, but only time will tell.

CJG9
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CJG9 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:38 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:Dude, if you seriously believe that blatantly lying to the aba wont add a stain to the Villanova name in the minds of employers, you really don't understand how the human mind works. Whatever adverse effect comes out of this will probably be felt least in Delaware and Philly, where Nova has established relationships and strong alumni. However, one of the firsts thing that will come to the mind of employers in places where Nova doesn't have those strong ties is this scandal. That certainly won't help any Nova student to get a job.

Reputation matters, and when the reputation that precedes you is a negative one, it matters more.

I understand your reluctance to acknowledge this. Especially since you really won't be stung by it. The people that will be are those who are right now searching for jobs, or who will be searching in the next two years or so. It's undeniable that this sort of negative press is bad. The very fact that your dean had to get on the phone with firms and explain/grovel/seek assurances that relationships wouldn't change illustrates that point.



I'm also a student at Villanova Law School.

I do agree with you that any damage to VLS’s reputation will most likely be felt strongest outside of the Philadelphia/Wilmington region. However, I honestly don’t think that the scandal is so severe that it cannot be effectively addressed through disclosure and explanation. CChuff’s post accurately explained the circumstances surrounding the scandal. I also think that CChuff is correct that only time will tell the full repercussions.

I personally think, for VLS students, the most redeeming element of the scandal is that it involved inflating the LSAT and GPA stats of incoming students, NOT the law school grades of current/graduating students. VLS has not inflated the grading curve for its current students and thus student law school grades are still as accurate a representation of a student’s effort and ability as they would be had there not been any scandal. Based on my experience GPA and personal connections are the most important factors for getting a job. The scandal has not affected either for any current VLS students or future VLS students.

As a student I’m angry that I am even in the position of feeling like I have to address this situation, but I think Dean Gotanda’s actions have been exemplary. We have been told by the administration and faculty that only the incoming LSAT and GPA stats were tampered with, and the individuals who were responsible have been removed. I honestly believe it. There is an independent audit to discover the extent of the scandal and there is also an independent audit to investigate all of the actions of former Dean Sargent. I highly doubt that Dean Gotanda and the administration lack the foresight to know that if they attempt to cover anything up it will be discovered by one of the audits and it will just exacerbate the current situation.

The fact that Dean Gotanda is on the phone seeking assurances that students will still be given the same opportunity illustrates more, in my eyes, his desire to be proactive in addressing the concerns of students than proof that the ability of VLS students to get jobs will be severely diminished.

The bottom line is that the speculation cannot be put to rest until the audits are complete and the full extent of the scandal is disclosed. However, as a student, I honestly don’t think that the scandal will have negative effects as severe as have been described by some on this forum.

I understand that some people, even fellow VLS students, may disagree with me. For prospective law students, I would say use all of the information you can get, including information about the scandal, to make the decision that’s best for you and if you don't feel comfortable choosing VLS because of the events of the scandal, choose another school that better fits your needs.
Last edited by CJG9 on Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:38 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:"All of them" is pretty vague as is " administration at Villanova". Seems as if you do not know of any other Villanova law school officials who have been dismissed due to this repeated pattern & practice of fraudulent reporting to the ABA or you would have named them or stated their titles. Your source citation is weak.


Noe Bernal, Dean William James, and Dean Seargent are no longer at Villanova Law School. My sources are Professors and Administration at the school that I am not comfortable disclosing publicly. But, the administration has went public with this information.

Also, the administration has discussed these facts with the entire school and all of Villanova students know this information.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:23 pm

CJG9 has misused the quote feature above. I did not write any of the text wrongly attributed to me two posts above. Aqualibrium wrote the quoted text on page 2 of this thread.

CJG9
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CJG9 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:41 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:CJG9 has misused the quote feature above. I did not write any of the text wrongly attributed to me two posts above. Aqualibrium wrote the quoted text on page 2 of this thread.


I did make a mistake and I apologize. It's my first time posting on this website. I have corrected my post to accurately reflect that Aqualibrium posted the quote that I was referring to.

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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby robotclubmember » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:46 pm

If Villanova had any T's in iTTTs name, I TTThink iTTT's preTTTy obvious whaTTT we'd all be calling iTTT righTTT now...

Anyway this is a hilarious scandal that shocks just about nobody. Villanova has outed itself for what it and 75% of law schools really are: a school run by carpetbaggers trying to turn a profit off of the false dreams of the youth. And you REALLY think the dean didn't know?

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:48 pm

robotclubmember wrote:If Villanova had any T's in iTTTs name, I TTThink iTTT's preTTTy obvious whaTTT we'd all be calling iTTT righTTT now...

Anyway this is a hilarious scandal that shocks just about nobody. Villanova has outed itself for what it and 75% of law schools really are: a school run by carpetbaggers trying to turn a profit off of the false dreams of the youth. And you REALLY think the dean didn't know?


What are you rambling about?

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:52 pm

The prior Dean knew of the misstatements. Our current Dean did not.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby Aqualibrium » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:53 pm

robotclubmember wrote:If Villanova had any T's in iTTTs name, I TTThink iTTT's preTTTy obvious whaTTT we'd all be calling iTTT righTTT now...



VilLIENOVA

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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby robotclubmember » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:58 pm

CChuff wrote:
robotclubmember wrote:If Villanova had any T's in iTTTs name, I TTThink iTTT's preTTTy obvious whaTTT we'd all be calling iTTT righTTT now...

Anyway this is a hilarious scandal that shocks just about nobody. Villanova has outed itself for what it and 75% of law schools really are: a school run by carpetbaggers trying to turn a profit off of the false dreams of the youth. And you REALLY think the dean didn't know?


What are you rambling about?


The current dean had to have known. If this shit went down without him knowing, he sucks at his job. He just had his patsies lined up. I guess I'd explain the ramblings as you call them, but I don't want to detract from the flavor of that kool-aid you're sipping on bro.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:01 pm

robotclubmember wrote:
CChuff wrote:
robotclubmember wrote:If Villanova had any T's in iTTTs name, I TTThink iTTT's preTTTy obvious whaTTT we'd all be calling iTTT righTTT now...

Anyway this is a hilarious scandal that shocks just about nobody. Villanova has outed itself for what it and 75% of law schools really are: a school run by carpetbaggers trying to turn a profit off of the false dreams of the youth. And you REALLY think the dean didn't know?


What are you rambling about?


The current dean had to have known. If this shit went down without him knowing, he sucks at his job. He just had his patsies lined up. I guess I'd explain the ramblings as you call them, but I don't want to detract from the flavor of that kool-aid you're sipping on bro.


"The current dean had to have known." Like I said.....rambling. I do like Kool-Aid though. What is your favorite flavor?

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beach_terror
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby beach_terror » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:02 pm

robotclubmember wrote:
CChuff wrote:
robotclubmember wrote:If Villanova had any T's in iTTTs name, I TTThink iTTT's preTTTy obvious whaTTT we'd all be calling iTTT righTTT now...

Anyway this is a hilarious scandal that shocks just about nobody. Villanova has outed itself for what it and 75% of law schools really are: a school run by carpetbaggers trying to turn a profit off of the false dreams of the youth. And you REALLY think the dean didn't know?


What are you rambling about?


The current dean had to have known. If this shit went down without him knowing, he sucks at his job. He just had his patsies lined up. I guess I'd explain the ramblings as you call them, but I don't want to detract from the flavor of that kool-aid you're sipping on bro.

You realize he just took over two months ago, don't you? I'm not denying others may have been involved, and there is an investigation underway, but Dean Gotanda was certainly not involved. He was in no position to even interact with admissions 2 months ago, let alone 3-5 years ago.

You're obviously entitled to talk shit, but not to make shit up.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:04 pm

beach_terror wrote:
robotclubmember wrote:
CChuff wrote:
robotclubmember wrote:If Villanova had any T's in iTTTs name, I TTThink iTTT's preTTTy obvious whaTTT we'd all be calling iTTT righTTT now...

Anyway this is a hilarious scandal that shocks just about nobody. Villanova has outed itself for what it and 75% of law schools really are: a school run by carpetbaggers trying to turn a profit off of the false dreams of the youth. And you REALLY think the dean didn't know?


What are you rambling about?


The current dean had to have known. If this shit went down without him knowing, he sucks at his job. He just had his patsies lined up. I guess I'd explain the ramblings as you call them, but I don't want to detract from the flavor of that kool-aid you're sipping on bro.

You realize he just took over two months ago, don't you? I'm not denying others may have been involved, and there is an investigation underway, but Dean Gotanda was certainly not involved. He was in no position to even interact with admissions 2 months ago, let alone 3-5 years ago.

You're obviously entitled to talk shit, but not to make shit up.



+1

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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby robotclubmember » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:08 pm

beach_terror wrote:
robotclubmember wrote:
CChuff wrote:
robotclubmember wrote:If Villanova had any T's in iTTTs name, I TTThink iTTT's preTTTy obvious whaTTT we'd all be calling iTTT righTTT now...

Anyway this is a hilarious scandal that shocks just about nobody. Villanova has outed itself for what it and 75% of law schools really are: a school run by carpetbaggers trying to turn a profit off of the false dreams of the youth. And you REALLY think the dean didn't know?


What are you rambling about?


The current dean had to have known. If this shit went down without him knowing, he sucks at his job. He just had his patsies lined up. I guess I'd explain the ramblings as you call them, but I don't want to detract from the flavor of that kool-aid you're sipping on bro.

You realize he just took over two months ago, don't you? I'm not denying others may have been involved, and their is an investigation underway, but Dean Gotanda was certainly not involved. He was in no position to even interact with admissions 2 months ago, let alone 3-5 years ago.

You're obviously entitled to talk shit, but not to make shit up.


I understand that. He didn't participate. But when you are brought in, you inherit knowledge. You also inherit the responsibility of taking proactive ownership over the integrity of your school's data. Either he's stupid or covering up a mess that got found out by someone else.

"Why should you go to jail for a crime someone else... noticed?" - Bob Loblaw, Arrested Development, lol.

(PS - I've investigated fraud in corporate environments as a CPA in Big4. My gut tells me, it's unlikely he was oblivious. They never are.)

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Grizz
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby Grizz » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:12 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
robotclubmember wrote:If Villanova had any T's in iTTTs name, I TTThink iTTT's preTTTy obvious whaTTT we'd all be calling iTTT righTTT now...



VilLIENOVA


lol yes

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:13 pm

robotclubmember wrote:I understand that. He didn't participate. But when you are brought in, you inherit knowledge. You also inherit the responsibility of taking proactive ownership over the integrity of your school's data. Either he's stupid or covering up a mess that got found out by someone else.

"Why should you go to jail for a crime someone else... noticed?" - Bob Loblaw, Arrested Development, lol.

(PS - I've investigated fraud in corporate environments as a CPA in Big4. My gut tells me, it's unlikely he was oblivious. They never are.)


Well, if you were a good CPA you would know that Corporations are subject to the disclosure requirements of the Securities Act of 1933, the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 etc. and are required to have internal controls to detect fraud and misstatements. Law schools on the other hand are not similarly required. Officers and board of directors are required to review and certify all financial statements, so of course they know what is in the statements and the assumptions behind them. Our Dean, however, was not required to certify the numbers nor were they required to review them. Thus, the knowledge that officers and board of directors would have of corporate fraud is very much different than fraudulent reporting of admissions numbers.

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beach_terror
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby beach_terror » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:19 pm

robotclubmember wrote:I understand that. He didn't participate. But when you are brought in, you inherit knowledge. You also inherit the responsibility of taking proactive ownership over the integrity of your school's data. Either he's stupid or covering up a mess that got found out by someone else.

"Why should you go to jail for a crime someone else... noticed?" - Bob Loblaw, Arrested Development, lol.

(PS - I've investigated fraud in corporate environments as a CPA in Big4. My gut tells me, it's unlikely he was oblivious. They never are.)

What the fuck are you talking about? He notified the entire school and our entire alumni base within hours of hearing about this. Stop misplacing the hate, you clearly have no idea how LS admissions department are run. The man has been the dean for 2 months, had no reason to believe any of this shit had gone on, and has proceeded in the most transparent way possible.

The people that are responsible will burn for this, however saying a Dean should go to jail (or be liable) for this after being promoted from the faculty 2 months ago is fucking moronic. There is absolutely no justice served by blaming the innocent.

They've already identified 3 people, there will likely be more. Further, we get daily updates and are encouraged to actually meet with Dean Gotanda so he can explain the situation to us. This kind of transparency is not required, but I'm thankful he's doing the right thing. Numerous faculty have expressed that had he handled this the way our former Dean would have (and most Deans in general) they would be gone.
Last edited by beach_terror on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:19 pm

The repercussions to Villanova Law are likely to be serious because the law school lied to the ABA &, because its rankings rely largely on information supplied to the ABA, to USNews. Trying to be deceptive by supplying fraudulent information to the legal industry's two powerhouses was not a good idea. Because it was so easy to do, the consequences need to make a strong impact on the other ABA accredited law schools to discourage similiar misdeeds. Essentially, Villanova's actions have raised ethical concerns about the entire law school industry that need to be crushed. I doubt that Villanova Law School will find many, if any at all, sympathetic ears.

One set of consequences may include a low yield, increased transfer activity out of Villanova & substantially increased scholarships to incoming & current law students to get through any possible probationary period, in my opinion.

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beach_terror
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby beach_terror » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:22 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:The repercussions to Villanova Law are likely to be serious because the law school lied to the ABA &, because its rankings rely largely on information supplied to the ABA, to USNews. Trying to be deceptive by supplying fraudulent information to the legal industry's two powerhouses was not a good idea. Because it was so easy to do, the consequences need to make a strong impact on the other ABA accredited law schools to discourage similiar misdeeds. Essentially, Villanova's actions have raised ethical concerns about the entire law school industry that need to be crushed. I doubt that Villanova Law School will find many, if any at all, sympathetic ears.

One set of consequences may include a low yield, increased transfer activity out of Villanova & substantially increased scholarship to incoming & current law students to get through any possible probationary period, in my opinion.

I had a 1L OCI with a prestigious boutique firm that didn't give two shits about the scandal because it was associated with the old administration. They're sympathetic to our difficult situation and have indicated that they will certainly not jump ship. Some are justfiabily upset, however they also realize it's not the current student body's fault. The audit will further reveal that there is no grade inflation here, so that'll prove this has no impact on future hiring.

Further, the ABA already said this won't effect our the reaccreditation process. We're not going to be on probation.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:25 pm

Also, I do not really pay attention to US New rankings. Its the NLJ ones that matter. Which we are currently ranked 39. Also, Dean Gotanda has got many reassurances from employers that their hiring practices will not change as a result of this scandal. Villanova will continue to be in the top tier in the NLJ and with the economy starting to pick up, students at Villanova will do well for themselves.

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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:27 pm

Just received a rude PM from CChuf. Do you expect Villanova Law School's actions to go unnoticed, unpunished & excused ?

beach-terror: What source do you have for the ABA stating that Villanova Law School's fraudulent reporting won't result in probation--especially since the investigation is still ongoing ?
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby robotclubmember » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:28 pm

beach_terror wrote:
robotclubmember wrote:I understand that. He didn't participate. But when you are brought in, you inherit knowledge. You also inherit the responsibility of taking proactive ownership over the integrity of your school's data. Either he's stupid or covering up a mess that got found out by someone else.

"Why should you go to jail for a crime someone else... noticed?" - Bob Loblaw, Arrested Development, lol.

(PS - I've investigated fraud in corporate environments as a CPA in Big4. My gut tells me, it's unlikely he was oblivious. They never are.)

What the fuck are you talking about? He notified the entire school and our entire alumni base within hours of hearing about this. Stop misplacing the hate, you clearly have no idea how LS admissions department are run. The man has been the dean for 2 months, had no reason to believe any of this shit had gone on, and has proceeded in the most transparent way possible.

The people that are responsible will burn for this, however saying a Dean should go to jail (or be liable) for this after being promoted from the faculty 2 months ago is fucking moronic. There is absolutely no justice served by blaming the innocent.

They've already identified 3 people, there will likely be more. Further, we get daily updates and are encouraged to actually meet with Dean Gotanda so he can explain the situation to us. This kind of transparency is not required, but I'm thankful he's doing the right thing. Numerous faculty have expressed that had he handled this the way our former Dean would have (and most Deans in general) they would be gone.


The transparency reminds me of the tearful apologies that come from athletes when rumors about steroids or whatever start to surface. What I'm saying is, his hand was probably forced somehow, so he got on top of it out of necessity. I have no facts to support that and will freely admit so. But the impetus of the standard mea culpa press releases and firings is usually having your hand forced, eg, someone who wasn't going to be quiet found out. Deans don't trash their school's reputations unless they have to, even if the mess was inherited.

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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby Aqualibrium » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:28 pm

beach_terror, I've seen you mention a lack of issues with the law school grades of current students several times. Not sure that has anything to do with anything. Also not sure if you fully understand what grade inflation is. Perhaps you can explain where you are going with that?
Last edited by Aqualibrium on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:29 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Just received a rude PM from CChuf. Do you expect Villanova Law School's actions to go unnoticed, unpunished & excused ?


Hahaha, Canadian Wolf is worse than our previous Dean.

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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:30 pm

Great logic.




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