Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

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CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:14 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Asked by the ABA Journal whether an admissions data correction by Villanova's law school could raise an issue concerning the annual US News & World Report law school rankings, research director Robert Morse said it has been the magazine's policy for many years not to revise previously published rankings.

"Beyond that, US News will need to fully understand the entire Villanova Law School situation in more detail before we can make other comments."

ABA Journal Law News Now Feb. 4, 2011


How does this address that you did not know that the US Rankings come out in April?

HeavenWood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HeavenWood » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:16 pm

seespotrun wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
CChuff wrote:If you are concerned about getting employed especially in the Philadelphia/New Jersey/Delaware market, it should not affect your decision to go to Villanova as they place in these areas better than any other Philadelphia school. (Penn generally self-selects to other areas and we place better than TU). Thus, if your goal is to get employed and want to go to a school which gives you great oppurtunities to do this, Villanova is a great choice.


Villanova places marginally better than Temple. And by marginally, I mean one or two percent. Because Temple is very affordable (and because Villanova is often stingy with scholarship money), for most people, Temple will be significantly cheaper (and thus the better) choice.

I grew up on the Main Line. I know it's much nicer than North Philly, but considering that one's chances of finding a non-shit law job are slim coming from either school ITE, it's foolish to take the more expensive one because of location or "prestige."


I agree with this completely. However, this calculus should not be affected in any way by the recent disclosures.


My thoughts exactly.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:18 pm

CChuff: I see that you always focus on the most germane issue. Do you think that USNews computes the rankings in one day & releases them to the public the next ?

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:21 pm

Image

BlueDiamond
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby BlueDiamond » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:23 pm

this argument has become so immature.. can one of you just stop?

HeavenWood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HeavenWood » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:27 pm

BlueDiamond wrote:this argument has become so immature.. can one of you just stop?


I think CChuff makes some very salient points.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:30 pm

Of course you do. Just waiting for the ABA & USNews to make their salient points.

HeavenWood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HeavenWood » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:37 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Of course you do. Just waiting for the ABA & USNews to make their salient points.


I'm not going to Villanova, so I'm not really invested in the outcome of all this. I just find your feigned comprehension of the Philadelphia legal market highly entertaining.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:41 pm

Knowledge of the Philly legal market ???

HeavenWood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HeavenWood » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:43 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Knowledge of the Philly legal market ???


IE, you seem so sure that this will have a drastic effect on local hiring.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:45 pm

I do not recall posting that. My focus is on the ABA & USNews. You may be confusing me with other posters.
Hiring practices probably change over an extended period of time, is my best guess if that interests you. I did note one poster's attempt to equate Villanova Law School fraudulent reporting of matriculated students numerical date to other law schools' "gaming" employment statistics for ABA reporting. The two are not the same as one violates ABA rules & constitutes "intentional fraud" while the other is permissible but violates the "spirit" of the ABA reporting requirements.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

HeavenWood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HeavenWood » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:49 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:I do not recall posting that. My focus is on the ABA & USNews. You may be confusing me with other posters.
Hiring practices probably change over an extended period of time, is my best guess if that interests you.


Well, you posted this:

Actually, we are not thriving on bad news--just discussing it. You are close to the situation & may be a bit too sensitive to open, frank discussions about this matter. And understandably so. You, as a current second year Villanova Law student, are more victimized by this fraudulent reporting than others with little or no investment in Villanova Law. If you were a first year, would you consider transferring ?


Which, given Villanova's status as a Philly feeder school, implies that you believe local hiring will be significantly affected.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:52 pm

Oh, sorry, I didn't know that you were writing of possible implications from one of my posts in this thread. Yes, it is possible.

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northwood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby northwood » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:08 pm

for the record: nova got crossed off my list by losing to pittsburgh last night.
they should have won the game, but they threw the ball away too much.

stayway
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby stayway » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:19 pm

northwood wrote:for the record: nova got crossed off my list by losing to pittsburgh last night.
they should have won the game, but they threw the ball away too much.


Cool story bro.

kopper
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby kopper » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:27 pm

CChuff wrote:If you are concerned about getting employed especially in the Philadelphia/New Jersey/Delaware market, it should not affect your decision to go to Villanova as they place in these areas better than any other Philadelphia school. (Penn generally self-selects to other areas and we place better than TU). Thus, if your goal is to get employed and want to go to a school which gives you great oppurtunities to do this, Villanova is a great choice.


Care to elaborate on this? I'd love to see it.

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beach_terror
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby beach_terror » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:49 pm

Consult the NLJ250

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:51 pm


kopper
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby kopper » Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:26 pm



OK, thanks for the links. What's your argument?
1. Is it that Villanova's 16.7% is greater than Temple's 16.2% placement for NJL250? sorry that's not compelling enough to state Nova places better than Temple in Philly.
2. Is it that Nova's 39 placements in NLJ250 is greater than Temple's 46? 39 > 46? does not compute for me
3. Or is it that in both charts Nova is listed above Temple somehow infering its greatness. Had Nova had Penn like numbers you could with greater confidence refer to some chart or NLJ rankings b/c I expect it would be obvious. Its not obvious here so show some skill and state your argument why someone should pay nearly 3 X's Temple's in-state tuition or even substantially more than Temple's out-of-state.

Also, is it to be assumed that is current data from 2010 b/c that was not clear from the lackluster information provided here.

HeavenWood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HeavenWood » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:01 pm

kopper wrote:


OK, thanks for the links. What's your argument?
1. Is it that Villanova's 16.7% is greater than Temple's 16.2% placement for NJL250? sorry that's not compelling enough to state Nova places better than Temple in Philly.
2. Is it that Nova's 39 placements in NLJ250 is greater than Temple's 46? 39 > 46? does not compute for me
3. Or is it that in both charts Nova is listed above Temple somehow infering its greatness. Had Nova had Penn like numbers you could with greater confidence refer to some chart or NLJ rankings b/c I expect it would be obvious. Its not obvious here so show some skill and state your argument why someone should pay nearly 3 X's Temple's in-state tuition or even substantially more than Temple's out-of-state.

Also, is it to be assumed that is current data from 2010 b/c that was not clear from the lackluster information provided here.


Kopper's right. In Philly, the two schools have near-equal placement and prestige. If one wants Philly, can't get Penn, and has no strong ties to the region, TCR is the cheapest option between Villanova, Temple, and Rutgers Camden.

jdhakert
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby jdhakert » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:13 pm

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Last edited by jdhakert on Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:04 pm

kopper wrote:
OK, thanks for the links. What's your argument?
1. Is it that Villanova's 16.7% is greater than Temple's 16.2% placement for NJL250? sorry that's not compelling enough to state Nova places better than Temple in Philly.
2. Is it that Nova's 39 placements in NLJ250 is greater than Temple's 46? 39 > 46? does not compute for me
3. Or is it that in both charts Nova is listed above Temple somehow infering its greatness. Had Nova had Penn like numbers you could with greater confidence refer to some chart or NLJ rankings b/c I expect it would be obvious. Its not obvious here so show some skill and state your argument why someone should pay nearly 3 X's Temple's in-state tuition or even substantially more than Temple's out-of-state.

Also, is it to be assumed that is current data from 2010 b/c that was not clear from the lackluster information provided here.


First, when did I say our higher placement rate justifies paying more tuition? I never made that claim, you are adding facts to make your point look better. You are also mistating the price disparity of Villanova and Temple. Temple (out-of-state) is over 30,000. Nova is 35,000. So stop inflating numbers. Temple is also in one of the worst parts of Philadelphia. I would pay the extra 5,000 a year to not get shot.

Second, Villanova, based on available data, place higher in NLJ 250 than Temple. I didn't say place much better than Temple, or significantly greater, I said greater. Which, as the numbers show, is true. You have no data or evidence to show otherwise, so I believe it is you who has the burden to prove that Temple places better than Villanova.
Last edited by CChuff on Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

HeavenWood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HeavenWood » Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:01 pm

CChuff wrote:First, when did I say our higher placement rate justifies paying more tuition? I never made that claim, you are adding facts to make your point look better. You are also mistating the price disparity of Villanova and Temple. Temple (out-of-state) is over 30,000. Nova is 35,000. So stop inflating numbers. Temple is also in one of the worst parts of Philadelphia. I would pay the extra 5,000 a year for the risk of not getting shot.

Second, Villanova, based on available data, place higher in NLJ 250 than Temple. I didn't say place much better than Temple, or significantly greater, I said greater. Which, as the numbers show, is true. You have no data or evidence to show otherwise, so I believe it is you who has the burden to prove that Temple places better than Villanova.


You're splitting hairs here. Kudos to you for having pride in your school, but Villanova is not worth the extra cost for anyone who is even slightly debt averse.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:13 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
CChuff wrote:First, when did I say our higher placement rate justifies paying more tuition? I never made that claim, you are adding facts to make your point look better. You are also mistating the price disparity of Villanova and Temple. Temple (out-of-state) is over 30,000. Nova is 35,000. So stop inflating numbers. Temple is also in one of the worst parts of Philadelphia. I would pay the extra 5,000 a year for the risk of not getting shot.

Second, Villanova, based on available data, place higher in NLJ 250 than Temple. I didn't say place much better than Temple, or significantly greater, I said greater. Which, as the numbers show, is true. You have no data or evidence to show otherwise, so I believe it is you who has the burden to prove that Temple places better than Villanova.


You're splitting hairs here. Kudos to you for having pride in your school, but Villanova is not worth the extra cost for anyone who is even slightly debt averse.



Re-read my prior post.


And that is your opinion. I obviously have the opposite opinion as I could have went to Temple. You are also failing to differentiate between people that have to pay and people that do not have to pay.

HeavenWood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HeavenWood » Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:17 pm

CChuff wrote:And that is your opinion. I obviously have the opposite opinion as I could have went to Temple.


Was the cost difference for you only $5,000? If you sincerely believe going to school on the Main Line is worth the extra $15,000 (plus higher COL) than Villanova was clearly the right choice for you. I'm not railing on your for your decision, but I do think people should be informed that the only real difference between the two schools are environment and price.




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