Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

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HeavenWood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HeavenWood » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:46 pm

CJG9 wrote:
javancho wrote:I agree that it's hard to know how this will affect VLS, but to all the VLS defenders I ask:

What do you think the sanctions and consequences WILL be for VLS?

What do you think the sanctions and consequences SHOULD be for VLS?

When answering, try to be fair and unbiased. Imagine, for instance, that Temple or another school would have done exactly the same thing that VLS did.


Great questions. I'm not sure of what law school sanctions have been in the past but I'll research it and post my answer to both.


If there is a set precedent, then that.

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beach_terror
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby beach_terror » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:52 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Dissappointed that VLS supporters' personal attacks & false accusations didn't work ?

read: I'm continuing to try to get the last word in an argument I can't support with evidence. I'm desperately trying to save face by resorting to cryptic one to two sentence replies to questions that leave nothing substantive to respond to. However, I will continue posting because until the people in this thread with a brain get bored and leave.

HeavenWood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HeavenWood » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:07 pm

beach_terror wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Dissappointed that VLS supporters' personal attacks & false accusations didn't work ?

read: I'm continuing to try to get the last word in an argument I can't support with evidence. I'm desperately trying to save face by resorting to cryptic one to two sentence replies to questions that leave nothing substantive to respond to. However, I will continue posting because until the people in this thread with a brain get bored and leave.


...and that would be now.

I wish the best of luck to all prospective/current Villanova students. May the negative consequences stay at a minimum.

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby Big Shrimpin » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:20 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Dissappointed that VLS supporters' personal attacks & false accusations didn't work ?



Naw, dood, I'm not dissapointed

Are you disappointed that I continue to pwn your intellect without ever receiving a substantive response in return?

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Section141
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby Section141 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:41 pm

CJG9 wrote:
javancho wrote:I agree that it's hard to know how this will affect VLS, but to all the VLS defenders I ask:

What do you think the sanctions and consequences WILL be for VLS?

What do you think the sanctions and consequences SHOULD be for VLS?

When answering, try to be fair and unbiased. Imagine, for instance, that Temple or another school would have done exactly the same thing that VLS did.


Great questions. I'm not sure of what law school sanctions have been in the past but I'll research it and post my answer to both.


Thanks CJG9, a couple of us have asked this. I don't have any investment in Nova so I'm not criticizing nor defending, just looking for info. I assume that since CanadianWolf is making the argument that sanctions are coming, that he/she researched past cases where the ABA investigated and handed down penalties. Of course, we've already beaten the dead horse that this is currently an internal investigation and not an ABA one, but that's neither here nor there.

Blindly defending of VLS wouldn't helpful, and none of the students here are doing that. They're making logical arguments for why the consequences may not be as severe as widely thought. Blindly attacking VLS isn't helpful either. Make a logical argument and back it up with some facts (aka: past cases).

I'll make a BOLD prediction and say that CanadianWolf will not directly address this post by finding any prior cases and will just call me a Nova apologist.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:03 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:What is most perplexing is that you & your classmates fail to realize that you are victims of Villanova Law School's repeated fraudulent reporting to the ABA. But continue to bury your heads in the sand, blame others & hope it will all go away. Ignore the ABA, ignore the Wall Street Journal, ignore USNews & ignore the various blogs such as Above The Law & T14 Paradise.blogspot.com. Fantasy is much easier to deal with than reality in your situation or so it seems.


Hey, CanadianKitten I am much too inexperienced, and sensitive to read that WSJ article you continue to cite. So can you please outline the severe reprucussions for Villanova that the article indicates.

While you are at it, please show where any of us blamed others or tried to bring down any other schools. I am much too inexperienced and ingnorant to do this.

stayway
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby stayway » Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:21 am

CChuff wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:What is most perplexing is that you & your classmates fail to realize that you are victims of Villanova Law School's repeated fraudulent reporting to the ABA. But continue to bury your heads in the sand, blame others & hope it will all go away. Ignore the ABA, ignore the Wall Street Journal, ignore USNews & ignore the various blogs such as Above The Law & T14 Paradise.blogspot.com. Fantasy is much easier to deal with than reality in your situation or so it seems.


Hey, CanadianKitten I am much too inexperienced, and sensitive to read that WSJ article you continue to cite. So can you please outline the severe reprucussions for Villanova that the article indicates.

While you are at it, please show where any of us blamed others or tried to bring down any other schools. I am much too inexperienced and ingnorant to do this.


Yo, I don't know how ya'll do it in Canada but in the States we use Bluebook citations. So you get an F for citations.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:24 am

I spoke to a couple of well known legal scholars and administrators, a few of whom were teaching in Philly, none of them knew a thing about the current Villanova scandal. They really didn't seem to care much when I explained it to them either. I would have thought that educators and current and former deans and associate deans would really be fired up by a colleague blatantly lying. If employers are anything like them, I don't think this will have much of an impact with anyone but students.

I also had an interesting conversation with all of them about the cost of law school. They all, with the exception of two, were tenured profs at t10's. They seem to think that law school enrollment is actually going down because students are weighing the cost vs. the benefit lol (they obviously don't talk to admissions much). They really didn't seem to care at all though. They were totally disconnected, didn't even know how much tuition was at their schools. I suppose they don't have to care...Being a tenured professor who is also active in academia is the best gig in the world. You make mid six figures, you get ferried all over the country to present papers and give speeches, and they generally can't get rid of you unless you lay hands on a student.

HopefulFish
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HopefulFish » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:24 am

Big Shrimpin wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Dissappointed that VLS supporters' personal attacks & false accusations didn't work ?



Naw, dood, I'm not dissapointed

Are you disappointed that I continue to pwn your intellect without ever receiving a substantive response in return?


Image

r6_philly
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby r6_philly » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:25 am

Aqualibrium wrote:I spoke to a couple of well known legal scholars and administrators, a few of whom were teaching in Philly, none of them knew a thing about the current Villanova scandal. They really didn't seem to care much when I explained it to them either. I would have thought that educators and current and former deans and associate deans would really be fired up by a colleague blatantly lying. If employers are anything like them, I don't think this will have much of an impact with anyone but students.

I also had an interesting conversation with all of them about the cost of law school. They all, with the exception of two, were tenured profs at t10's. They seem to think that law school enrollment is actually going down because students are weighing the cost vs. the benefit lol (they obviously don't talk to admissions much). They really didn't seem to care at all though. They were totally disconnected, didn't even know how much tuition was at their schools. I suppose they don't have to care...Being a tenured professor who is also active in academia is the best gig in the world. You make mid six figures, you get ferried all over the country to present papers and give speeches, and they generally can't get rid of you unless you lay hands on a student.


Professors don't like administrators, they usually put constrains on what they want to do. Deans are bound by some business requirements of the schools. I don't really know how they think about fudging the data, it is only embarassing when you get caught. Professors don't care much because they probably expect the deans to do it. The deed benefit them if it brings in more funding, but doesn't really hurt them because they are not fudging.

Being a professor is a great job, but I don't know if you would call making mid 100's after a few years the "best gig". It is also very political in department, but I suppose it's like that in any working/social unit.

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beach_terror
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby beach_terror » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:22 pm

Just fyi, our SBA is planning on making shirts that says VLS on the front, and then Banging Whores & Fixing Scores on the back.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:35 am

"VLS Banging Whores & Fixing Scores" Glad to see that at least some of you are finally accepting reality. Let's see how that goes for VLS.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:24 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:"VLS Banging Whores & Fixing Scores" Glad to see that at least some of you are finally accepting reality. Let's see how that goes for VLS.


Canadiankitten instead of posting the same speculative propaganda, why don't you address the fifty posts that destroyed your arguments and tore your credibility down to zero, without mistating our arguments, citing sources that do not support your incredible propositions, and without being unncecessarily demeaning in an attempt to hide the extreme and hilarious weaknesses in your "arguments".
Last edited by CChuff on Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:26 pm

Resorting to name-calling again ?

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:30 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Resorting to name-calling again ?


Dodging the issue that you make lousy arguments again?

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:33 pm

What you & some of your classmates fail to grasp is that name-calling & false accusations won't change the reality of your situation or that of Villanova Law School.

P.S. USNews has already indicated that VLS has a pass for this year since the rankings had already been determined. But we have yet to hear from the ABA. And USNews will be around two years from now.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:36 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:What you & some of your classmates fail to grasp is that name-calling & false accusations won't change the reality of your situation or that of Villanova Law School.


What you fail to realize is that no one is making any false accusations. You also have no knowledge about Villanova, the Philadelphia market, or the actual situation you continue to argue about. If this were in federal court your testimony would be excluded because you fail to have personal knowledge. You simply speculate, fabricate information, and cite sources that do not support your proposition one bit.
Last edited by CChuff on Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:37 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:What you & some of your classmates fail to grasp is that name-calling & false accusations won't change the reality of your situation or that of Villanova Law School.

P.S. USNews has already indicated that VLS has a pass for this year since the rankings had already been determined. But we have yet to hear from the ABA. And USNews will be around two years from now.


Hahahahahaa. US News rankings come out in April. Are you for real?

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northwood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby northwood » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:40 pm

if you really want to go to VLS- then you will still go there. If you are on the fence, this is something to seriously think about. Not only is the schools reputation on theline, but you will have to think- if they lied about this, what else are they lying about? Now, if you are okay with that, then you will still go ( or if you got a fantastic offer, and you really like philly). IF you arent, and have other options, im sure most people willl choose the other school over VLS.

When the Rankings come out ( i think march, right?? or is it April sometime??), it would be better to compare VLS spot in this year to where they are in thenext ranking period. That could be a better indication of how big or little this scandal really is, and how its going to impact oothers. how this plays out inthe hiring aspect, may not be fully known for years after the fact.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:45 pm

northwood wrote:if you really want to go to VLS- then you will still go there. If you are on the fence, this is something to seriously think about. Not only is the schools reputation on theline, but you will have to think- if they lied about this, what else are they lying about? Now, if you are okay with that, then you will still go ( or if you got a fantastic offer, and you really like philly). IF you arent, and have other options, im sure most people willl choose the other school over VLS.

When the Rankings come out ( i think march, right?? or is it April sometime??), it would be better to compare VLS spot in this year to where they are in thenext ranking period. That could be a better indication of how big or little this scandal really is, and how its going to impact oothers. how this plays out inthe hiring aspect, may not be fully known for years after the fact.


If you are concerned about getting employed especially in the Philadelphia/New Jersey/Delaware market, it should not affect your decision to go to Villanova as they place in these areas better than any other Philadelphia school. (Penn generally self-selects to other areas and we place better than TU). Thus, if your goal is to get employed and want to go to a school which gives you great oppurtunities to do this, Villanova is a great choice.

jdhakert
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby jdhakert » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:49 pm

It probably doesn't matter
Last edited by jdhakert on Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

HeavenWood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HeavenWood » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:04 pm

CChuff wrote:If you are concerned about getting employed especially in the Philadelphia/New Jersey/Delaware market, it should not affect your decision to go to Villanova as they place in these areas better than any other Philadelphia school. (Penn generally self-selects to other areas and we place better than TU). Thus, if your goal is to get employed and want to go to a school which gives you great oppurtunities to do this, Villanova is a great choice.


Villanova places marginally better than Temple. And by marginally, I mean one or two percent. Because Temple is very affordable (and because Villanova is often stingy with scholarship money), for most people, Temple will be significantly cheaper (and thus the better) choice.

I grew up on the Main Line. I know it's much nicer than North Philly, but considering that one's chances of finding a non-shit law job are slim coming from either school ITE, it's foolish to take the more expensive one because of location or "prestige."

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:11 pm

Asked by the ABA Journal whether an admissions data correction by Villanova's law school could raise an issue concerning the annual US News & World Report law school rankings, research director Robert Morse said it has been the magazine's policy for many years not to revise previously published rankings.

"Beyond that, US News will need to fully understand the entire Villanova Law School situation in more detail before we can make other comments."

ABA Journal Law News Now Feb. 4, 2011
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:12 pm

.
Last edited by CChuff on Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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seespotrun
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby seespotrun » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:12 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
CChuff wrote:If you are concerned about getting employed especially in the Philadelphia/New Jersey/Delaware market, it should not affect your decision to go to Villanova as they place in these areas better than any other Philadelphia school. (Penn generally self-selects to other areas and we place better than TU). Thus, if your goal is to get employed and want to go to a school which gives you great oppurtunities to do this, Villanova is a great choice.


Villanova places marginally better than Temple. And by marginally, I mean one or two percent. Because Temple is very affordable (and because Villanova is often stingy with scholarship money), for most people, Temple will be significantly cheaper (and thus the better) choice.

I grew up on the Main Line. I know it's much nicer than North Philly, but considering that one's chances of finding a non-shit law job are slim coming from either school ITE, it's foolish to take the more expensive one because of location or "prestige."


I agree with this completely. However, this calculus should not be affected in any way by the recent disclosures.




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