Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

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javancho
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby javancho » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:48 pm

Section141 wrote:I'll take this thread in another direction. CanadianWolf- feel free not to comment.

Does anyone think that VLS will formally address or contact prospective students? I know they issued their formal response to current students, but I'm just wondering if they'll talk to admitted students to try to convince them to still attend.

Of course VLS will contact prospective students and try to lure them into attending. VLS is a business, and they have to sell their goods, even if those goods are now damaged. The real questions are:
Who is going to pay 40K/year for damaged goods?
What will their GPAs and LSATs be?

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:50 pm

Section141 wrote:
CJG9 wrote:
Section141 wrote:I'll take this thread in another direction. CanadianWolf- feel free not to comment.

Does anyone think that VLS will formally address or contact prospective students? I know they issued their formal response to current students, but I'm just wondering if they'll talk to admitted students to try to convince them to still attend.


Great question. I do know that VLS has created a special admissions committee with the specific purpose of addressing the concerns that prospective students. I have not heard of any specific formal responses that the committee plans to take. I will ask the professor who is the chair of that admissions committee what, if any, plans they have come up with. I can also ask that professor any other specific questions you may have.


This is definitely helpful info. It does seem the current regime is doing a lot to turn it around. One question/concern I'd have would have to do with current professors sticking around. Reputation and prestige and all this is very subjective, and throughout all of this the quality of the education would have been the same. If the faculty all remain to weather the storm, the education quality will remain the same.

I'm sure they'd say that they expect to retain all key faculty members, but it's just a thought.



As you expected, that is what has been indicated to us here at the school. I strongly believe that this will be the case though.

CJG9
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CJG9 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:11 pm

Section141 wrote:
CJG9 wrote:
Section141 wrote:I'll take this thread in another direction. CanadianWolf- feel free not to comment.

Does anyone think that VLS will formally address or contact prospective students? I know they issued their formal response to current students, but I'm just wondering if they'll talk to admitted students to try to convince them to still attend.


Great question. I do know that VLS has created a special admissions committee with the specific purpose of addressing the concerns that prospective students. I have not heard of any specific formal responses that the committee plans to take. I will ask the professor who is the chair of that admissions committee what, if any, plans they have come up with. I can also ask that professor any other specific questions you may have.


This is definitely helpful info. It does seem the current regime is doing a lot to turn it around. One question/concern I'd have would have to do with current professors sticking around. Reputation and prestige and all this is very subjective, and throughout all of this the quality of the education would have been the same. If the faculty all remain to weather the storm, the education quality will remain the same.

I'm sure they'd say that they expect to retain all key faculty members, but it's just a thought.



As a 2L, after the potential impact on employment, retaining faculty was my biggest concern so you're absolutely right to be concerned about it. That is honestly a professor by professor decision. Here is what one professor told me when that question was asked:

Incentives for Professors to Stay:
1) "The Main Line" (Bryn Mawr, Wayne, Marion and the surrounding communities) is a great neighborhood with phenomenal public schools. Professors who have families and children to think about definitely strongly consider the quality of life and future potential for their children as highly as they consider the prestige of the school they're going to teach at.

2) The proximity to the major metropolitan areas (Phillly, NYC, DC) and the access to major transportation is positive because it allows those professors who are engaged in outside research and fellowships the opportunity to teach without sacrificing their research.

3) The new building offers a lot in the way of teaching capabilities.

4) The VLS community is very close - you've seen how much several of the students have argued to defend the school. The teachers feel the same way and they feel that way for a reason.

5) The school has traditionally given young teachers the ability to teach courses in their area of expertise so professors aren't stuck teaching a subject they themselves have to relearn and don't care to teach in the first place.

On the flip side the negatives of the scandal sounded a lot like the negatives that prospective students had. There is just an uncertainty and embarrassment about the repercussions of the scandal that have been cast on the school. For professors concerned about long term career effects I'm sure that weighs heavily. Those professors who get opportunities to go to Ivy League law schools will almost always take those opportunities.

My opinion is that we will probably not lose a lot of professors. Especially among the experienced tenured professors. I think this is just one of those things that you'd have to decide what's best for you.

I wouldn't mind asking around and seeing how individual professors respond when asked or asking if professors would be available to meet with you if you decide to visit. Certainly feel free to PM if you have any plans to visit or want me to ask specific questions to the faculty.
Last edited by CJG9 on Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:18 pm

CJG9 wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:You all really are obsessed with this. If an ongoing ABA investigation, a Wall Street Journal article, impact on USNews' credibility & admissions of multiple years of fraudulent reporting to the ABA by at least 3 Villanova Law School officials is not enough to convince you that bad news is likely, then we just disagree. I do, nevertheless, understand your anxiety about the situation. Nothing is going to be resolved on this discussion board despite your efforts. My opinion remains the same. But my opinion should not be the focus of your concern.


Your opinions aren't the focus of my concern in this forum. Your attempt to alter my position with deceptive statements is the focus of my concern in this forum. This is the same thing you attempted to do earlier with CChuff's comments.

In this comment you agree with my position, but you have attempted to word it as to make it appear that it is not my position.

My opinion has always been that there will be repercussions for VLS:

Page 3 at 1:38pm - I posted "I do agree with you that any damage to VLS’s reputation will most likely be felt strongest outside of the Philadelphia/Wilmington region. However, I honestly don’t think that the scandal is so severe that it cannot be effectively addressed through disclosure and explanation."
My opinions in the comment are clear. VLS's reputation will be damaged. Those negative repercussions will be strongest outside of the Philadelphia/Wilmington region. I did not believe that the repercussions were so severe that they cannot be overcome by disclosure and explanation.


In this post, you have written:

"If an ongoing ABA investigation, a Wall Street Journal article, impact on USNews' credibility & admissions of multiple years of fraudulent reporting to the ABA by at least 3 Villanova Law School officials IS NOT ENOUGH TO CONVINCE YOU THAT BAD NEWS IS LIKELY, then we just disagree"

The very fact that there was a scandal at VLS convinced me that "bad news was likely" (i.e. there would be repercussions) and I've shown that to be my opinion from the beginning. Your comment is illogical and baseless.

You've also incorrectly supposed a feeling of anxiety. I suspect this is also an attempt to inappropriately make your position appear stronger. Whatever your motives, your logic is flawed. No one can know how specific VLS students feel without asking them. Representing your speculation as fact is a illogical, and incorrect with regards to how I feel.


+1

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:36 am

CJG9: Thank you for repeating our position. The reality of the situation is not pleasant. It will be interesting to see what the ABA does with the reports being furnished to it by Villanova Law & the independent investigating law firm in light of Villanova Law School's recent admissions of repeatedly reporting fraudulent LSAT & GPA stats of matriculated students. We should know in a few months.

CJG9
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CJG9 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:26 am

CanadianWolf: I didn't write that post to repeat the position. I wrote that post to prove how deceptive and inappropriate several of your posts are because you have the tendency to make up false information and manipulate what others have said.

The independent audits will reveal the full extent of the scandal. I believe that we have seen the full scope of it because given the fact that two independent audits are being conducting, it would be completely illogical for the VLS administration to continue to falsify information.

The bottom line is that the scandal will have repercussions, as I have always said. Having to respond to your dishonest comments is one of them. I honestly think that the repercussions will not be as severe as some people have made it out to be. The current VLS administration and faculty are brilliant. They are working overtime to help students get jobs and to right this situation.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:00 pm

I may have posted info. that you & your classmates don't enjoy reading, but nothing like you claim. Part of the problem is that you do not realize that your law school is involved in an ABA investigation. Simply because the independent law firm investigating Villanova Law School's fraudulent reporting practices (& likely other matters) was hired by Villanova Law School does not make it a non-ABA matter. All findings are reported to the ABA as Villanova Law is working closely with the ABA. If you think that Villanova Law School will escape penalty or punishment from the ABA, then you are just not dealing with reality, in my opinion. Reality is difficult in your situation because of your tremendous investment in & trust of VLS.
As I noted in an earlier post, investigations often are similiar to bar disciplinary matters & NCAA investigations which utilize outside, independent law firms to investigate. Often the offender or offending institution pays for the costs of investigation. VLS hired the law firm to try to "come clean" for the new administration in hope of mitigating punishment. You & your classmates are young & inexperienced & would not be expected to have experience in these areas. Resorting to childish name-calling & bad mouthing others in an attempt to divert attention away from the gist of the matter will not exonerate Villanova Law School's repeated fraudulent reporting to the ABA. Your USNews rank is set for this next issue, so effects will not be seen there until next year.


P.S. I'm beginning to understand the "T14 Paradise.blogspot.com" description of Villanova Law School as an "overpriced sewer pit". Unfortunately, your primary method of defense is attempting to drag down other law schools into the same sewer pit when they are "gaming", rather than intentionally defrauding, the system. And, if you don't know the difference, then you should be seeking an immediate refund.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:28 pm

What is most perplexing is that you & your classmates fail to realize that you are victims of Villanova Law School's repeated fraudulent reporting to the ABA. But continue to bury your heads in the sand, blame others & hope it will all go away. Ignore the ABA, ignore the Wall Street Journal, ignore USNews & ignore the various blogs such as Above The Law & T14 Paradise.blogspot.com. Fantasy is much easier to deal with than reality in your situation or so it seems.

CJG9
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CJG9 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:05 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:I may have posted info. that you & your classmates don't enjoy reading, but nothing like you claim. Part of the problem is that you do not realize that your law school is involved in an ABA investigation. Simply because the independent law firm investigating Villanova Law School's fraudulent reporting practices (& likely other matters) was hired by Villanova Law School does not make it a non-ABA matter. All findings are reported to the ABA as Villanova Law is working closely with the ABA. If you think that Villanova Law School will escape penalty or punishment from the ABA, then you are just not dealing with reality, in my opinion. Reality is difficult in your situation because of your tremendous investment in & trust of VLS.
As I noted in an earlier post, investigations often are similiar to bar disciplinary matters & NCAA investigations which utilize outside, independent law firms to investigate. Often the offender or offending institution pays for the costs of investigation. VLS hired the law firm to try to "come clean" for the new administration in hope of mitigating punishment. You & your classmates are young & inexperienced & would not be expected to have experience in these areas. Resorting to childish name-calling & bad mouthing others in an attempt to divert attention away from the gist of the matter will not exonerate Villanova Law School's repeated fraudulent reporting to the ABA. Your USNews rank is set for this next issue, so effects will not be seen there until next year.


P.S. I'm beginning to understand the "T14 Paradise.blogspot.com" description of Villanova Law School as an "overpriced sewer pit". Unfortunately, your primary method of defense is attempting to drag down other law schools into the same sewer pit when they are "gaming", rather than intentionally defrauding, the system. And, if you don't know the difference, then you should be seeking an immediate refund.



What's most perplexing to me is that you keep introducing the same red herring. Everyone has acknowledged that VLS is the subject of two independent audits but you can't seem to accept this fact. You personally attack VLS students by attempting to make up their positions. Your arguments are baseless, illogical, and inappropriate, not because of the "info" you have posted but because of the deceptive manipulation that you have attempted. This is not a claim, I've proven it on more than one occasion which I would be happy to repost at anyone's request.

Here is an example:

You just posted: "You & your classmates are young & inexperienced & would not be expected to have experience in these areas. Resorting to childish name-calling & bad mouthing others in an attempt to divert attention away from the gist of the matter will not exonerate Villanova Law School's repeated fraudulent reporting to the ABA."

There are several things wrong with this statement. First, you have resorted to a personal attack by calling me and my classmates young & inexperienced in an attempt to insinuate that we are incapable of understanding the situation so as to attempt to weaken our perspective. Second, you go on to denounced the very name calling & bad mouthing that you have just engaged in the sentence before.

I would be more than happy to engage in an honest discussion with anyone who wants to discuss the scandal. I would even be happy to engage with you in an honest discussion if you decided to stop attempting to manipulate and misrepresent the posts on this forum.

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beach_terror
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby beach_terror » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:24 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:What is most perplexing is that you & your classmates fail to realize that you are victims of Villanova Law School's repeated fraudulent reporting to the ABA. But continue to bury your heads in the sand, blame others & hope it will all go away. Ignore the ABA, ignore the Wall Street Journal, ignore USNews & ignore the various blogs such as Above The Law & T14 Paradise.blogspot.com. Fantasy is much easier to deal with than reality in your situation or so it seems.

You've posted the same thing for almost 3 pages now. Nobody gives a shit kid, you're speculating against people who can offer at least some objective evidence against your assertions.

Also, when T14 Paradise becomes a citation in your argument, it's pretty flawed. That's pretty sad. You keep citing the ABA but can't offer a scintilla of evidence supporting that they may take action against an explicit statement that they will not. When you have something meaningful to dispute, return to this thread.

You're really giving Pdaddy a run for his money for being one of the worst posters on TLS.

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Section141
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby Section141 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:42 pm

I challenge CanadianWolf to find an example of a previous scandal that resulted in sanctions from the ABA as a comparison. Where is the precedent? This isn't the first scandal involving a law school so what types of punishments were handed out in the past?

You keep vaguely referring to impending sanctions from the ABA, so let's see some other concrete examples where the ABA threw down the hammer. I'm not defending or anything, I'm actually curious.

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby Big Shrimpin » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:36 pm

Section141 wrote:I challenge CanadianWolf to find an example of a previous scandal that resulted in sanctions from the ABA as a comparison. Where is the precedent? This isn't the first scandal involving a law school so what types of punishments were handed out in the past?

You keep vaguely referring to impending sanctions from the ABA, so let's see some other concrete examples where the ABA threw down the hammer. I'm not defending or anything, I'm actually curious.



FYI, I raised this point earlier. Of course, it has yet to be addressed.

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seespotrun
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby seespotrun » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:51 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:This is similiar to many NCAA & state bar investigations which use outside counsel--some of which are hired by the offending institution in hope of mitigating penalties.


This is a good analogy, except that I doubt VLS is concerned with mitigating any potential ABA-imposed penalties. Rather, VLS is more likely concerned with the potential exposure to liability for duping its current and former students out of the occasion to accurately assess the opportunity costs of attending VLS at $X vs. School B at $Y. Depending on the opportunities available to the particular student prior to matriculation, there could be some hard, quantifiable damages.

Let's be real here, the ABA isn't going to strip VLS of championships or scholarships. The ABA reaccreditation process may have been the reason that the fraud was uncovered, but, at this point, the ABA is the least of VLS's concerns.

javancho
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby javancho » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:55 pm

I agree that it's hard to know how this will affect VLS, but to all the VLS defenders I ask:

What do you think the sanctions and consequences WILL be for VLS?

What do you think the sanctions and consequences SHOULD be for VLS?

When answering, try to be fair and unbiased. Imagine, for instance, that Temple or another school would have done exactly the same thing that VLS did.
Last edited by javancho on Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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beach_terror
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby beach_terror » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:55 pm

seespotrun wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:This is similiar to many NCAA & state bar investigations which use outside counsel--some of which are hired by the offending institution in hope of mitigating penalties.


This is a good analogy, except that I doubt VLS is concerned with mitigating any potential ABA-imposed penalties. Rather, VLS is more likely concerned with the potential exposure to liability for duping its current and former students out of the occasion to accurately assess the opportunity costs of attending VLS at $X vs. School B at $Y. Depending on the opportunities available to the particular student prior to matriculation, there could be some hard, quantifiable damages.

Let's be real here, the ABA isn't going to strip VLS of championships or scholarships. The ABA reaccreditation process may have been the reason that the fraud was uncovered, but, at this point, the ABA is the least of VLS's concerns.

Normally, can you ask for a reevaluation of merit aid at the end of 1L based on class rank?

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:30 pm

Sure seems as if I struck a nerve. The next few months will be interesting. Love the continuing tactic of VLS supporters trying once again to shift the focus away from Villanova & onto other law schools "in the past".

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Stonewall
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby Stonewall » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:33 pm

beach_terror wrote:
seespotrun wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:This is similiar to many NCAA & state bar investigations which use outside counsel--some of which are hired by the offending institution in hope of mitigating penalties.


This is a good analogy, except that I doubt VLS is concerned with mitigating any potential ABA-imposed penalties. Rather, VLS is more likely concerned with the potential exposure to liability for duping its current and former students out of the occasion to accurately assess the opportunity costs of attending VLS at $X vs. School B at $Y. Depending on the opportunities available to the particular student prior to matriculation, there could be some hard, quantifiable damages.

Let's be real here, the ABA isn't going to strip VLS of championships or scholarships. The ABA reaccreditation process may have been the reason that the fraud was uncovered, but, at this point, the ABA is the least of VLS's concerns.

Normally, can you ask for a reevaluation of merit aid at the end of 1L based on class rank?


I dont see why not, if they know you might be interested in jumping ship for better schools then it is in their interest to throw some cash your way

HeavenWood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HeavenWood » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:33 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Sure seems as if I struck a nerve. The next few months will be interesting. Love the continuing tactic of VLS supporters trying once again to shift the focus away from Villanova & onto other law schools "in the past".


Do you have a life?

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beach_terror
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby beach_terror » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:34 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Sure seems as if I struck a nerve. The next few months will be interesting. Love the continuing tactic of VLS supporters trying once again to shift the focus away from Villanova & onto other law schools "in the past".

I don't think I ever said that. I love the canuck tactic of repeating shit he's already said and being really vague about shit to just continuing a feeble attempt to try and get the last word.

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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:35 pm

Villanova Dean John Gotanda brought the continuing involvement of the ABA into this matter in the text of his letter to Villanova law school alumni reprinted by Above The Law. See page 1 of this thread.

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beach_terror
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby beach_terror » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:40 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Villanova Dean John Gotanda brought the continuing involvement of the ABA into this matter in the text of his letter to Villanova law school alumni reprinted by Above The Law. See page 1 of this thread.

Thank you for this accurate restatement of the facts. Unfortunately, nobody is contesting these facts.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:58 pm

First discussion of Villanova Law School & ABA accreditation concerns was raised by poster Beach-Terror. And, then, a page or two later, by CChuff both of whom claimed that they were "told" by VLS administration that Villanova Law School's ABA accreditation is not at risk. This is interesting as the ABA doesn't comment on investigations until complete & even Villanova Law's new dean writes that the co-operation with the ABA is continuing during these audits of Villanova Law School. Then the same two posters engage in multiple personal attacks against several regular TLS posters for suggesting that this is a serious matter. We would all be interested in any written communication from the ABA to Villanova Law School that VLS accreditation is not in danger. Otherwise, your possibly excessive optimism is understandable in light of your substantial investment in Villanova Law.

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby Big Shrimpin » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:39 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:First discussion of Villanova Law School & ABA accreditation concerns was raised by poster Beach-Terror. And, then, a page or two later, by CChuff both of whom claimed that they were "told" by VLS administration that Villanova Law School's ABA accreditation is not at risk. This is interesting as the ABA doesn't comment on investigations until complete & even Villanova Law's new dean writes that the co-operation with the ABA is continuing during these audits of Villanova Law School. Then the same two posters engage in multiple personal attacks against several regular TLS posters for suggesting that this is a serious matter. We would all be interested in any written communication from the ABA to Villanova Law School that VLS accreditation is not in danger. Otherwise, your possibly excessive optimism is understandable in light of your substantial investment in Villanova Law.



It's clearly apparent that you continue to belittle (indirectly) VLS students by rehashing their plight ad infinitum. Sure, you're citing authority, but are you not doing it now in a pejorative manner? What do you stand to achieve in extenuating this whole debate? Pride? A sense of self-worth? Laughs? Some sort of moralistic benefit or fulfillment of a self-righteous duty to "report" to outside observers on a situation that continues to get a great deal of press otherwise, notwithstanding the fact that it is quite apparent that your continued involvement in this conversation is really upsetting people? I'm not a VLS student, but I know students there and they surely understand the severity of the situation. Is it not enough that they're currently undergoing mental anguish and anxiety (clearly, as evidenced in this thread) over how this entire debacle is going to play out?

TLS is not only a forum for discussion, but it is also a means by which future students can seek information regarding their choices for law school, etc... CanadianWolf, you've said your piece, as have all the other posters in this thread. What further utility do you think can be derived by continuing to rehash what has already been said, asked, and answered, here? In the interest of preserving some semblance of congeniality, and unless you can add more to the discussion, why not give it a break, dood?

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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:45 pm

Dissappointed that VLS supporters' personal attacks & false accusations didn't work ?

CJG9
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CJG9 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:45 pm

javancho wrote:I agree that it's hard to know how this will affect VLS, but to all the VLS defenders I ask:

What do you think the sanctions and consequences WILL be for VLS?

What do you think the sanctions and consequences SHOULD be for VLS?

When answering, try to be fair and unbiased. Imagine, for instance, that Temple or another school would have done exactly the same thing that VLS did.


Great questions. I'm not sure of what law school sanctions have been in the past but I'll research it and post my answer to both.




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