Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

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beach_terror
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby beach_terror » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:14 pm

HopefulFish wrote:
beach_terror wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:I'll ask my Dad (who conducts hiring at a Philly midlaw) what he thinks about all this. I can't imagine this incident will help Villanova's reputation, but I'm skeptical that it will have much (if any) long term consequences in the primary market (SE PA, South Jersey, Northern Delaware). The Philly market is extremely insular and reputations die hard here.

It'll probably affect our reputation somewhat, but only with those firms that weren't crazy about us to begin with. We're known for having a very strong alumni base (hence why we actually have firms looking at 1Ls for SA jobs), so those who have always been supportive of us will likely not waiver.

At my interview yesterday, the interviewer (also Philly midlaw) basically said that she finds it illogical to stop hiring our grads based off of a) something the administration did and b) if they liked the quality of our grads before, this doesn't change that.


What did you expect the interviewer to say?

They didn't have to show up for one. DERP

My second OCI interviewer again said today that they don't care, and everyone is freaking out. Everyone generally regarded our old Dean as a jackass, so nobody is particularly taken aback.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:20 pm

beach_terror wrote:
HopefulFish wrote:
beach_terror wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:I'll ask my Dad (who conducts hiring at a Philly midlaw) what he thinks about all this. I can't imagine this incident will help Villanova's reputation, but I'm skeptical that it will have much (if any) long term consequences in the primary market (SE PA, South Jersey, Northern Delaware). The Philly market is extremely insular and reputations die hard here.

It'll probably affect our reputation somewhat, but only with those firms that weren't crazy about us to begin with. We're known for having a very strong alumni base (hence why we actually have firms looking at 1Ls for SA jobs), so those who have always been supportive of us will likely not waiver.

At my interview yesterday, the interviewer (also Philly midlaw) basically said that she finds it illogical to stop hiring our grads based off of a) something the administration did and b) if they liked the quality of our grads before, this doesn't change that.


What did you expect the interviewer to say?

They didn't have to show up for one. DERP

My second OCI interviewer again said today that they don't care, and everyone is freaking out. Everyone generally regarded our old Dean as a jackass, so nobody is particularly taken aback.


+1

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby Big Shrimpin » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:26 pm

ITT we learn that:

1. Unless someone can point to a particular situation where a school got dinged for doing something similar, there is no objective basis upon which to conclude that Villanova will get dinged.
2. Arguing about opinions and whether people agree or disagree on particular issues is about as productive as punching sand. Moreover, the credited response to an opinion in almost any situation should almost invariably be, "cool story, bro." Disarming attack, ftw...amirite?
3. Repeating an opinion (rife, mind you, with doom and gloom) over and over ad infinitum, to students currently dealing with a shitstorm of information is a super-douchebag thing to do. CanadianWolf...bromanasuarus rex...you're beating a dead horse. I think the Villanova students in here get your message. It's super-sweet to continue battling with them. Give them a break, eh?

HTH

javancho
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby javancho » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:41 pm

Third Tier Reality is featuring Villanova (again):

http://T14 Paradise.blogspot.com/20 ... -time.html

What an honor!

HeavenWood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:00 pm

javancho wrote:Third Tier Reality is featuring Villanova (again):

http://T14 Paradise.blogspot.com/20 ... -time.html

What an honor!


At least he didn't refer to (the meaningless distinction of) the "Pennsylvania legal market."

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:09 pm

The above cited blog website does some severe name-calling when writing of this law school. To me, it seems a bit harsh.
This thread is interesting in that my posts refer to the ongoing ABA investigation even after confessions to multiple instances of fraudulent reporting of LSAT scores & GPAs of matriculated students to the ABA by at least three Villanova Law School officials. Villanova supporters are trying to focus on the alleged misreporting or alleged manipulation of employment data to the ABA by other law schools. The two are, however, quite different practices. The alleged manipulation of 9 month employment statistics to the ABA may be "gaming the system", but this alleged "gaming" or "manipulation" does not violate ABA rules. The misreprting by Villanova Law School is intentional, fraudulent & clear-cut. Villanova's defense of "look here everybody else is misreporting to the ABA" while probably partially true, does not involve falsefication of facts as does that done by Villanova.
The other tact taken by Villanova supporters is that these admitted falsifications will not harm hiring in Villanova's traditional placement region. The implication, therefore, is that students will not really be harmed because rankings shifts do not, at least immediately, affect traditional hiring patterns. This argument may or may not be valid depending upon the results & consequences of the ongoing ABA investigation & the subsequent passing of time.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

HeavenWood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:12 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:The implication, therefore, is that students will not really be harmed because rankings shifts do not, at least immediately, affect traditional hiring patterns.


Ding ding ding.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:14 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:The implication, therefore, is that students will not really be harmed because rankings shifts do not, at least immediately, affect traditional hiring patterns.


Ding ding ding.


+1

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:14 pm

That "ding, ding, ding", unfortunately, is the sound of an under-seige law school tooting its own horn. Optimism is alive & well among certain VLS supporters.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

HeavenWood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:15 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:That "ding, ding, ding", unfortunately, is the sound of an under-seige law school tooting its own horn.


Sigh...

Villanova is a TT, and Philadelphia isn't a huge market, but because many Penn grads self-select to NYC, it and Temple are effectively tied for the top. Granted, that doesn't mean a whole lot ITE (maybe 15% of Temple and Villanova grads will be biglaw bound this year), but it certainly doesn't hurt that many biglaw partners (who hire new associates) went to Villanova. Think this will drastically change their image of their alma mater? Think again.

Learn more about the Philadelphia legal market and then get back to us. I certainly don't pretend to be an expert on how things work in Canada-land.
Last edited by HeavenWood on Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:16 pm

I have "thought again" just as are the mainstream press & the ABA. If you think that this will be good for Villanova Law School placement, then we just disagree on something yet to be experienced. The real issue, however, is why would one invest well over $100,000 in a law degree that may prove to be "damaged goods".
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:18 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:That "ding, ding, ding", unfortunately, is the sound of an under-seige law school tooting its own horn.


Sigh...

Villanova is a TT, and Philadelphia isn't a huge market, but because many Penn grads self-select to NYC, it and Temple are effectively tied for the top. Granted, that doesn't mean a whole lot ITE (maybe 15% of Temple and Villanova grads will be biglaw bound this year), but it certainly doesn't hurt that many biglaw partners (who hire new associates) went to Villanova. Think this will drastically change their image of their alma mater? Think again.

Learn more about the Philadelphia legal market and then get back to us. I certainly don't pretend to be an expert of how things work in Canada-land.


Also, S&P over 1300. Dow over 12,000. Economy is picking up and jobs will follow. The current 1Ls will be in a much better situation than the current 2Ls and 3Ls were in.

HeavenWood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:19 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:I have "thought again" just as are the mainstream press & the ABA.


Unless you conduct legal hiring in Philadelphia, your opinion is next to meaningless.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:20 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:I have "thought again" just as are the mainstream press & the ABA. If you think that this will be good for Villanova Law School placement, then we just disagree on something yet to be experienced. The real issue, however, is why would one invest well over $100,000 in a law degree that may prove to be "damaged goods".


You keep citing the WSJ and ABA. But neither of these "sources" have indicated any employment, accredidation, or rankings fallout. So stop citing them. You again, are making stuff up.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:21 pm

CanadianWolf wrote: If you think that this will be good for Villanova Law School placement, then we just disagree on something yet to be experienced.


Again, what person on this forum has indicated that we think this will be a good thing? Stop misrepresenting what we are saying.

HeavenWood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:22 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:The real issue, however, is why would one invest well over $100,000 in a law degree that may prove to be "damaged goods".


Paying $100,000 for a Villanova degree is a patently bad idea, but this fact stands independent of the recent investigation.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:22 pm

The ABA investigation is ongoing.

javancho
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby javancho » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:23 pm

I just hope that these Villanova defenders are right about this "incident" not affecting hiring because if Villanova students are indeed graduating with so much debt, then even a minor pull-back in hiring can send many of them into default and a debt-trap. And then the "ding, ding, ding" is going to be the US federal government asking for its money back.

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Section141
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby Section141 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:24 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:I have "thought again" just as are the mainstream press & the ABA. If you think that this will be good for Villanova Law School placement, then we just disagree on something yet to be experienced. The real issue, however, is why would one invest well over $100,000 in a law degree that may prove to be "damaged goods".


I don't think anyone here think this will be "good" for VLS placement, but some of the argument here is that it won't be as bad as you say it will be.

Logically, if you're a Philly employer and have been hiring quality VLS students for years, do you think this will cause that to change? I'm not talking perception or reputation, I'm talking about the actual quality of the students and the education. This scandal hit admissions, not the professors.

HeavenWood
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby HeavenWood » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:25 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:The ABA investigation is ongoing.


Never said it ended. The clause "this fact stands independent of the recent investigation" is contextually open-ended. The term "recent" does not imply that the investigation has ended, only that it just started.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:29 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:The ABA investigation is ongoing.


http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... _law_dean/

It is an internal investigation. The ABA isn't investigating anything. You seriously need to stop.

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beach_terror
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby beach_terror » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:42 pm

For the sake of argument Canadawolf, either come up with a new argument or just stop posting. You have made your point. The doom and gloom over a news article is kind of ridiculous. We've all conceeded that this will clearly have some impact on our future employment statistics. However, continued speculation from someone who has no idea how the Philadelphia legal market functions is getting quite old. I've been born, raised, and educated in this area... and believe or not, Villanova's reputation isn't going to get crushed over night.

Villanova is, despite whatever the USNWR says, a very reputable school in the area. The hiring partners have maintained a very close-knit relationship to the school. If they were going to jump ship over a scandal, they would have left when they heard of the old Dean banging hookers and the whole peanut girl incident. However, they didn't and Villanova's NLJ250 was in the top 50 in the country afterward. The fact that this occurred under the old Dean (who is also immune from suit, conveniently) leaves people saying basically "yeah, not surprised".

Like I said earlier, it'll probably primarily affect people not attuned to hiring VLS grads anyway. However, the people that donate money and remain active in the community will not just peace the fuck out. Despite what many think, these sorts of incidences cause people to stand by the school. Personally, if my UG was involved with something like this, I wouldn't run down the street yelling the sky is falling. I'd look at the facts, make an informed decision, and go from there. This is what 90% of our alumni will do.
Last edited by beach_terror on Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:43 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:The ABA investigation is ongoing.


Never said it ended. The clause "this fact stands independent of the recent investigation" is contextually open-ended. The term "recent" does not imply that the investigation has ended, only that it just started.


Villanova's internal investigation. Not the ABA's. Just pointing out more complete fabrications by our dear friend from up north.

CChuff
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CChuff » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:45 pm

beach_terror wrote:For the sake of argument Canadawolf, either come up with a new argument or just stop posting. You have made your point. The doom and gloom over a news article is kind of ridiculous. We've all conceeded that this will clearly have some impact on our future employment statistics. However, continued speculation from someone who has no idea how the Philadelphia legal market functions is getting quite old. I've been born, raised, and educated in this area... and believe or not, Villanova's reputation isn't going to get crushed over night.

Villanova is, despite whatever the USNWR says, a very reputable school in the area. The hiring partners have maintained a very close-knit relationship to the school. If they were going to jump ship over a scandal, they would have left when they heard of the old Dean banging hookers and the whole peanut girl think. However, they didn't and Villanova's NLJ250 was in the top 50 in the country.

Like I said earlier, it'll probably primarily affect people not attuned to hiring VLS grads anyway. However, the people that donate money and remain active in the community will not just peace the fuck out. Despite what many think, these sorts of incidences cause people to stand by the school. Personally, if my UG was involved with something like this, I wouldn't run down the street yelling the sky is falling. I'd look at the facts, make an informed decision, and go from there. This is what 90% of our alumni will do.



Wow, I am officially done posting.

I cannot top that anyway. haha

CJG9
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Re: Villanova Reported Innacurate Data to the ABA

Postby CJG9 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:49 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:You all really are obsessed with this. If an ongoing ABA investigation, a Wall Street Journal article, impact on USNews' credibility & admissions of multiple years of fraudulent reporting to the ABA by at least 3 Villanova Law School officials is not enough to convince you that bad news is likely, then we just disagree. I do, nevertheless, understand your anxiety about the situation. Nothing is going to be resolved on this discussion board despite your efforts. My opinion remains the same. But my opinion should not be the focus of your concern.


Your opinions aren't the focus of my concern in this forum. Your attempt to alter my position with deceptive statements is the focus of my concern in this forum. This is the same thing you attempted to do earlier with CChuff's comments.

In this comment you agree with my position, but you have attempted to word it as to make it appear that it is not my position.

My opinion has always been that there will be repercussions for VLS:

Page 3 at 1:38pm - I posted "I do agree with you that any damage to VLS’s reputation will most likely be felt strongest outside of the Philadelphia/Wilmington region. However, I honestly don’t think that the scandal is so severe that it cannot be effectively addressed through disclosure and explanation."
My opinions in the comment are clear. VLS's reputation will be damaged. Those negative repercussions will be strongest outside of the Philadelphia/Wilmington region. I did not believe that the repercussions were so severe that they cannot be overcome by disclosure and explanation.


In this post, you have written:

"If an ongoing ABA investigation, a Wall Street Journal article, impact on USNews' credibility & admissions of multiple years of fraudulent reporting to the ABA by at least 3 Villanova Law School officials IS NOT ENOUGH TO CONVINCE YOU THAT BAD NEWS IS LIKELY, then we just disagree"

The very fact that there was a scandal at VLS convinced me that "bad news was likely" (i.e. there would be repercussions) and I've shown that to be my opinion from the beginning. Your comment is illogical and baseless.

You've also incorrectly supposed a feeling of anxiety. I suspect this is also an attempt to inappropriately make your position appear stronger. Whatever your motives, your logic is flawed. No one can know how specific VLS students feel without asking them. Representing your speculation as fact is a illogical, and incorrect with regards to how I feel.




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