international student... U.S undergrad

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khezraji
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international student... U.S undergrad

Postby khezraji » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:41 am

hi
my name is othman, and i'm an international student at UNC charlotte.lately, i've been taking seriously about attending an american law school. i'm majoring on international buisiness and minoring in political science. my overall GPA is a 3.8, but still have no idea what my score would be for LSAT. i have few questions if any can help me to answer and enlighten me:

-i know that UNC Charlotte is not the most prestigious school, but do i have a change to get into a t20?

-and does anyone know if i would qualify as an URM? ( i was Born and raised in Morocco and i'm a part of a minority of berbers tribes that still live in north africa, and i speak fluently four languages; berber dialect, arabic, french , and english)

please help me out because i've been feeling kind of lost with no answer to my questions
thanks

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Nulli Secundus
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Re: international student... U.S undergrad

Postby Nulli Secundus » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:32 am

1 - Your school's prestige only affects you in a positive manner, unless it is an online degree or something. (That is, Harvard undergrads are said to be able to gain admission to HLS with slightly lower numbers etc.)
2 - You are not an URM. Even if only 5 people were remaining from your people in the whole world, you would not be considered an URM. For that designation, you have to identify yourself as one of the minorities found in the USA and that minority should be underrepresented proportionally in law school education in the US. (Despite this general definition, URM designation is mainly limited to African-Americans, Mexicans, Puerto-Ricans and Native Americans iirc) Though, if you think your background influenced you in a significant way, write a DS (Diversity Statement).

Conclusion: Take the LSAT, keep up & raise the GPA. You will do fine.

khezraji
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Re: international student... U.S undergrad

Postby khezraji » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:38 am

thanks for answering me so quickly. i appreciate it.

icpb
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Re: international student... U.S undergrad

Postby icpb » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:08 pm

1. The prestige of your school wouldn't matter most of the time.
2. You have to be a citizen (or maybe a permanent resident) for the URM status to apply.

International students usually need higher GPA/LSAT to break in.

khezraji
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Re: international student... U.S undergrad

Postby khezraji » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:04 pm

that doesn't sound fair. why would an international student need higher scores(LSAT/GPA) when he/she gets the same education as a citizen or permenant residant? anyways i'll do my best to get my dream fullfilled no matter what...i'll work harder.thanks for your reply

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Nulli Secundus
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Re: international student... U.S undergrad

Postby Nulli Secundus » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:35 pm

icpb wrote:1. The prestige of your school wouldn't matter most of the time.
2. You have to be a citizen (or maybe a permanent resident) for the URM status to apply.
International students usually need higher GPA/LSAT to break in.


HTH.

EDIT: Int'l students do not even have proper GPAs. So the quoted poster is just ignorant.

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deadpoetnsp
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Re: international student... U.S undergrad

Postby deadpoetnsp » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:46 pm

I'm an international student, with an international undergrad. I have applied in the current cycle, and have a few T25 offers.

Since I have an international undergrad, the LSDAS GPA is blank. However, since Othman has a US undergrad degree, his GPA will not be blank. Further, his US undergrad GPA would impact the schools US News ranking (unlike mine).

Othman: based on my experience, considering that you have a 3.8, 167-170 will get you in at at T15-T25 with a decent scholarship. 170-175 would put you in a comfortable position and would put you in the running for T-14 with nice schols. PM me if you have any questions.

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deadpoetnsp
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Re: international student... U.S undergrad

Postby deadpoetnsp » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:52 pm

khezraji wrote:that doesn't sound fair. why would an international student need higher scores(LSAT/GPA) when he/she gets the same education as a citizen or permenant residant? anyways i'll do my best to get my dream fullfilled no matter what...i'll work harder.thanks for your reply


There is a very good reason why it is fair: the US News Law School rankings. The USNews ranking of a law school depends on the average GPA and LSAT of the students it takes. So when a school offers admission to a student who has a blank GPA, the ranking of the school will not rise as much as by a student who has both an LSAT and a US undergrad GPA. Hence intl students typically need a higher LSAT to get the same scholarship offer as US citizens/permanent residents. Intl students usually need a higher LSAT to compensate for their blank GPA. In your case, like I said above, you have a US undergrad, so your GPA would affect the ranking of the school offering admission to you. Hope that explains :)

icpb
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Re: international student... U.S undergrad

Postby icpb » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:14 pm

The OP is an international student who goes to UNC Charlotte. Nulli Secundus, why was what I wrote ignorant? I don't think you understand the different types of international students.

To the OP, you may want to make known your intention to return to your country to seek employment. Law schools care a lot about the employment rates of its graduates, and they know that American firms do not prefer international students for whom they need to sponsor. This may help you break the T14 with 170+.

Nulli Secundus wrote:
icpb wrote:1. The prestige of your school wouldn't matter most of the time.
2. You have to be a citizen (or maybe a permanent resident) for the URM status to apply.
International students usually need higher GPA/LSAT to break in.


HTH.

EDIT: Int'l students do not even have proper GPAs. So the quoted poster is just ignorant.

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deadpoetnsp
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Re: international student... U.S undergrad

Postby deadpoetnsp » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:51 pm

icpb is correct, but the part about employment is not necessarily true. I never mentioned anything about returning for employment, and have many offers with good scholarships. BigLaw and MidLaw firms do not hesitate to hire intl students, if they are in the top-20% or so at their law school. (Yes I know that's a very big if :) )

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deadpoetnsp
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Re: international student... U.S undergrad

Postby deadpoetnsp » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:58 pm

Also, "sponsoring" is not required to hire international students for the first year after graduating. You can work on an OPT extension of the student F-1 visa for up to a year, and the employer does not need to file any paperwork. During the first year of employment, the employer can then proceed to sponsor the employee, assuming the employee demonstrates his/her value to the firm. In other words, intl applicants have to work very hard on the LSAT, in law school, and also while employed.

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Nulli Secundus
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Re: international student... U.S undergrad

Postby Nulli Secundus » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:27 pm

icpb wrote:The OP is an international student who goes to UNC Charlotte. Nulli Secundus, why was what I wrote ignorant? I don't think you understand the different types of international students.

To the OP, you may want to make known your intention to return to your country to seek employment. Law schools care a lot about the employment rates of its graduates, and they know that American firms do not prefer international students for whom they need to sponsor. This may help you break the T14 with 170+.


I forgot that he goes to UNC Charlotte, but I called your post ignorant because you said international students needs higher GPA / LSATs than domestic ones for admission, which is wrong, imo. If you say this because of what you think about employment, even if we assume what you say about employment is true (I do not think that it is), what you said might only be valid for schools out of T14.

icpb
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Re: international student... U.S undergrad

Postby icpb » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:46 pm

I go to a top 10 school where 25% of students end up in law schools. From what I've heard from my international student friends (many of whom are aiming for the t14 and YHSCCN), the OPT is no where near enough to make up for the disadvantage due to limited quota. Unlike investment banks that can transfer the international students to an offices in their home country when their OPT expires, law firms are very limited with regards to this. This results in a case where the absolute top students won't have a problem, but the lower you go (including in the t14), the more problems you will have, and law schools know it (they are not stupid). What I posted above was the strategy my international student friends came up with, take it with a grain of salt.

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deadpoetnsp
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Re: international student... U.S undergrad

Postby deadpoetnsp » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:49 pm

There's no "quota" for an OPT. I know this because I'm on my OPT right now after completing an engineering grad degree. Anyone on an F-1 qualifies for an OPT. Secondly, if by "quota" you mean the H1B quota, that quota was not even filled for the 2010 cycle. There were vacant slots through the end of the year. Yes, employers would not take intl students unless they are at the top, but like I said before, intl students have to keep running to stay in the same place.

jman77
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Re: international student... U.S undergrad

Postby jman77 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:10 pm

deadpoetnsp wrote:There's no "quota" for an OPT. I know this because I'm on my OPT right now after completing an engineering grad degree. Anyone on an F-1 qualifies for an OPT. Secondly, if by "quota" you mean the H1B quota, that quota was not even filled for the 2010 cycle. There were vacant slots through the end of the year. Yes, employers would not take intl students unless they are at the top, but like I said before, intl students have to keep running to stay in the same place.


The 2011 quota is already exhausted as of January 26, 2011. 2010 data may not be reliable.

khezraji
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Re: international student... U.S undergrad

Postby khezraji » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:23 pm

i get it now. so following icpb's advise if i should look for a job after i graduate from law school i should apply in an investement banking firm to have more chances to get a job. and yes i know that international students needs to work harder than permenant residants and U.S citizen, maybe that is what's going to make us better and more competent.

p.s: i want to thank everybody, fot giving me more informations. i'll take all your words underconsideration

tvt86
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Re: international student... U.S undergrad

Postby tvt86 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:26 pm

2010 data is reliable. And while you're right about the 2011 exhaustion date, it actually took 9 months for it to be exhausted.

To get an H-1B for a job that starts in October in a given year, you can apply any time from April of that same year. Only 65,000 H-1Bs can be given out in a given year (with some narrow exceptions). In most years past, that quota has run out within a day or two of the opening date. In fact, there have been more H-1B petitions than there are visas available, so USCIS has had to draw applications out at random.

However, that has changed over the last couple of years because with the economic slowdown, demand for H-1B workers has decreased. So for the quota for last year was never exhausted. This year the quota of 65,000 was exhausted, but not until just recently. Given that employers and employees have had since April to apply, however, there have been plenty of opportunities.

Sure, the situation may change as the economy picks up. And sure, you have to be good to get hired because it takes more paperwork to hire you. But it can be done.

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deadpoetnsp
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Re: international student... U.S undergrad

Postby deadpoetnsp » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:18 pm

tvt86 wrote:2010 data is reliable. And while you're right about the 2011 exhaustion date, it actually took 9 months for it to be exhausted.

To get an H-1B for a job that starts in October in a given year, you can apply any time from April of that same year. Only 65,000 H-1Bs can be given out in a given year (with some narrow exceptions). In most years past, that quota has run out within a day or two of the opening date. In fact, there have been more H-1B petitions than there are visas available, so USCIS has had to draw applications out at random.

However, that has changed over the last couple of years because with the economic slowdown, demand for H-1B workers has decreased. So for the quota for last year was never exhausted. This year the quota of 65,000 was exhausted, but not until just recently. Given that employers and employees have had since April to apply, however, there have been plenty of opportunities.

Sure, the situation may change as the economy picks up. And sure, you have to be good to get hired because it takes more paperwork to hire you. But it can be done.


+1

jman77
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Re: international student... U.S undergrad

Postby jman77 » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:27 am

I should know about h-1bs... I am wrApping up my first three years on it this October. In my case, I was in the 20,000 advanced degree category, so I didn't have to go through lottery. I am also in the middle of a green card app process, and my lawyer has told me hiring is definitely picking up, including hirings of temporary workers.




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