How long should the resume be on Application???

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TommyK
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby TommyK » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:37 pm

r6_philly wrote:
TommyK wrote:
I'm sorry, but it seems like you're trying to disagree with an argument that I've never made.

You're saying that because you needed more than one page, many others will as well. Um, of course. There will be many others that may need more than one page. "Many others" is almost certainly the extreme minority. For the vast majority of applicants, one page will suffice. I stand by everything I've said :

1.5 pages as a personal preference I do not like.
It is likely if you're using more than one page, you're including aspects that aren't terribly important



And you are saying because you didn't need one, many others will not. It's the same argument only reversed.


What? No I didn't. I actually didn't offer justification on why I thought most people would be able to utilize a 1-page resume better. If you want to discuss the merits of one-page resumes and what my experience of reviewing resumes, I'd be happy to talk about that with you. I used myself as an example of somebody who was able to cram a lot of experience into a 1-page format.

I'm not inclined to rehash this argument that has been waged countless times on TLS. The OP was asking for what he should do. Most of the time, he should use a 1-page resume. There will be times when 2 pages are more appropriate.

Anonymous Loser
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby Anonymous Loser » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:40 pm

On my resume, I have 10+ years of previous work experience, 1L & 2L legal work experience, publications, undergraduate & law school honors and awards, volunteer work, and hobbies and interests, and it's 1 page, primarily 12pt font, with a 1 inch margin.

r6_philly
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby r6_philly » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:41 pm

TommyK wrote:What? No I didn't. I actually didn't offer justification on why I thought most people would be able to utilize a 1-page resume better. If you want to discuss the merits of one-page resumes and what my experience of reviewing resumes, I'd be happy to talk about that with you. I used myself as an example of somebody who was able to cram a lot of experience into a 1-page format.

I'm not inclined to rehash this argument that has been waged countless times on TLS. The OP was asking for what he should do. Most of the time, he should use a 1-page resume. There will be times when 2 pages are more appropriate.


It's ok. Soap box is all yours.
Last edited by r6_philly on Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

r6_philly
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby r6_philly » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:42 pm

Anonymous Loser wrote:On my resume, I have 10+ years of previous work experience, 1L & 2L legal work experience, publications, undergraduate & law school honors and awards, volunteer work, and hobbies and interests, and it's 1 page, primarily 12pt font, with a 1 inch margin.


We are not talking about legal resumes.

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BlakcMajikc
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby BlakcMajikc » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:42 pm

Anonymous Loser wrote:On my resume, I have 10+ years of previous work experience, 1L & 2L legal work experience, publications, undergraduate & law school honors and awards, volunteer work, and hobbies and interests, and it's 1 page, primarily 12pt font, with a 1 inch margin.


But you aren't applying for law school. Huge difference.

Career services will always tell you one page, which is true. Pre-law advising, not so much.

OP asked for application protocol, and two page is definitely acceptable

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:46 pm

r6_philly wrote:
BlakcMajikc wrote:
BlakcMajikc wrote:You guys had an objective on yours?
I guess my only resume writing abilities were formed post-MBA aka w/ no objective

Anyone with a sample objective for a law school app?


Not that it matters for me personally, but when I give advice and do resume reviews.


No objective for law school resumes.


No objective ever. Employers know what you want. It only takes up space that can be better suited with accomplishments. When applying for a job, one page is the rule. If you make an exception to to that rule, it better be damn worth that second page, that second page better be full and you better have the most important stuff on page one.

Plan2008
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby Plan2008 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:39 pm

IMHO a one page resume is perfect for a school that you are well qualified for.

But if it is a reach, I would take a risk and use as much real estate as I could. Turn the resume into a second PS. No bullets. Write a brief paragraph about each job and focus on one solid contribution you made. Focus on the skill/talent/ability that indicates about you. (

(For example, XXXX recruited me to travel throughout the country consulting other enterprises on how to develop technology solutions to meet their most critical business issues. My role was to quickly understand an organization’s key issues and demonstrate best practice solutions to C-level decision makers. I succeeded in gaining access to key influencers, obtaining their trust and earning the right to present solutions. )

You can apply this to school roles as well. Instead of saying you served on such and such student committee as president,focus on one thing you did that leaves a legacy or "changed the world". In addition to daily administrative duties, I ...

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geoduck
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby geoduck » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:10 pm

TommyK wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
TommyK wrote:
LIKELY, not necessarily. I don't disagree. I'm sure many people did more interesting things. I stand by my statement. In most cases, you can whittle your resume down to one page to make it more effective.


My education + publication + research + volunteering + teaching adds up to 2/3 page. I can easily see many others fitting this bill or more since mine is actually kind of bare.


I'm sorry, but it seems like you're trying to disagree with an argument that I've never made.

You're saying that because you needed more than one page, many others will as well. Um, of course. There will be many others that may need more than one page. "Many others" is almost certainly the extreme minority. For the vast majority of applicants, one page will suffice. I stand by everything I've said :

1.5 pages as a personal preference I do not like.
It is likely if you're using more than one page, you're including aspects that aren't terribly important


As a two-pager, I full agree with you. Most people won't need two pages. I also hate the one page spill over. My own resume is really more of a 1.5 pager, but I made it into a two pager through spacing and design so that it's legible and easy to follow.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/prospective/ ... esume4.pdf

That's atrocious to my eyes. It looks especially like spill over because he has practically NO whitespace between sections. I understand doing this if you are just over a page and want to fit it into a single, but why maintain the block of text once you know you are over the limit?

http://www.law.harvard.edu/prospective/ ... esume2.pdf

If the first link had just used spacing more like the second link, it would appear to be two full pages instead of one page bursting at the seams.

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geoduck
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby geoduck » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:16 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
BlakcMajikc wrote:
BlakcMajikc wrote:You guys had an objective on yours?
I guess my only resume writing abilities were formed post-MBA aka w/ no objective

Anyone with a sample objective for a law school app?


Not that it matters for me personally, but when I give advice and do resume reviews.


No objective for law school resumes.


No objective ever. Employers know what you want. It only takes up space that can be better suited with accomplishments. When applying for a job, one page is the rule. If you make an exception to to that rule, it better be damn worth that second page, that second page better be full and you better have the most important stuff on page one.


What gave you the impression that employers demand resumes to be a single page? In my experience it's more likely to elicit a response of "That's it?". Now if you're breaking into three or four pages and you don't have some impressive successes or a long list of projects, that is a bit detrimental. Two pages is pretty much the sweet spot.

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BlakcMajikc
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby BlakcMajikc » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:22 pm

Every MBA career center

geoduck wrote:What gave you the impression that employers demand resumes to be a single page? In my experience it's more likely to elicit a response of "That's it?". Now if you're breaking into three or four pages and you don't have some impressive successes or a long list of projects, that is a bit detrimental. Two pages is pretty much the sweet spot.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:40 pm

BlakcMajikc wrote:Every MBA career center

geoduck wrote:What gave you the impression that employers demand resumes to be a single page? In my experience it's more likely to elicit a response of "That's it?". Now if you're breaking into three or four pages and you don't have some impressive successes or a long list of projects, that is a bit detrimental. Two pages is pretty much the sweet spot.


Thank you. Coming from parents that both have MBA's, I can tell you that employers do not want a laundry list of the fluff that a two page resume will have. They want to see your recent job history and your accomplishments (think "New company sales record for the 1st quarter" instead of "helped customer choose the proper product for their needs").

Obviously a law school resume and a work resume have their separate requirements. But for the future, leave the resume at one page. Do some research and you will find that I am simply echoing what most hiring managers say.

Plan2008
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby Plan2008 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:59 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:Thank you. Coming from parents that both have MBA's, I can tell you that employers do not want a laundry list of the fluff that a two page resume will have. They want to see your recent job history and your accomplishments (think "New company sales record for the 1st quarter" instead of "helped customer choose the proper product for their needs").

Obviously a law school resume and a work resume have their separate requirements. But for the future, leave the resume at one page. Do some research and you will find that I am simply echoing what most hiring managers say.


Is the fact that your parents have MBA;s considered "fluff"?

gregthomas77
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby gregthomas77 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:18 pm

Plan2008 wrote:
MrPapagiorgio wrote:Thank you. Coming from parents that both have MBA's, I can tell you that employers do not want a laundry list of the fluff that a two page resume will have. They want to see your recent job history and your accomplishments (think "New company sales record for the 1st quarter" instead of "helped customer choose the proper product for their needs").

Obviously a law school resume and a work resume have their separate requirements. But for the future, leave the resume at one page. Do some research and you will find that I am simply echoing what most hiring managers say.


Is the fact that your parents have MBA;s considered "fluff"?


That is funny. You guys should see some of the vitae here in academia. My department chair has one that is almost 8 pages long.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:31 pm

gregthomas77 wrote:
Plan2008 wrote:
MrPapagiorgio wrote:Thank you. Coming from parents that both have MBA's, I can tell you that employers do not want a laundry list of the fluff that a two page resume will have. They want to see your recent job history and your accomplishments (think "New company sales record for the 1st quarter" instead of "helped customer choose the proper product for their needs").

Obviously a law school resume and a work resume have their separate requirements. But for the future, leave the resume at one page. Do some research and you will find that I am simply echoing what most hiring managers say.


Is the fact that your parents have MBA;s considered "fluff"?


That is funny. You guys should see some of the vitae here in academia. My department chair has one that is almost 8 pages long.


No, saying that was to avoid smart ass remarks about how "oh, and what evidence do you have." Secondly, I am clearly talking about non-academic work. Yes, obviously a CV is and should be longer than one page (read earlier on this thread where I mention that). Nowhere in the quoted post do I discuss academia.

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geoduck
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby geoduck » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:39 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:
BlakcMajikc wrote:Every MBA career center

geoduck wrote:What gave you the impression that employers demand resumes to be a single page? In my experience it's more likely to elicit a response of "That's it?". Now if you're breaking into three or four pages and you don't have some impressive successes or a long list of projects, that is a bit detrimental. Two pages is pretty much the sweet spot.


Thank you. Coming from parents that both have MBA's, I can tell you that employers do not want a laundry list of the fluff that a two page resume will have. They want to see your recent job history and your accomplishments (think "New company sales record for the 1st quarter" instead of "helped customer choose the proper product for their needs").

Obviously a law school resume and a work resume have their separate requirements. But for the future, leave the resume at one page. Do some research and you will find that I am simply echoing what most hiring managers say.


Funny. My pop's got edjumacation in that field too and does lots of hiring and firing. More pertinent to the conversation, I've been part of several hiring committees and we were generally underwhelmed by the one-pagers and found the three-pagers ridiculous.

This isn't a math equation; it's a sales tool. You are selling your candidacy. Some cramped, ugly resume that is difficult to read and expects the headers of each section to do the selling is generally going to be at a disadvantage to a well-formatted and thorough two pager. The standard chronological resume that you're talking about is at even more of a disadvantage in current times, when a large amount of highly qualified people are generally going for every position. A descriptive function or combined type resume is a far more powerful sales tool if done correctly.

Now if you only have one page of information, you only have one page. But I've seen a lot of resumes that were really and truly two pagers that are font-shrunken and margin-cramped into one giant block of text taking filling a single page to the brim. This helps nobody and is especially harmful if the people you are pitching to have backgrounds in design and aesthetics.

Plan2008
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby Plan2008 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:40 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:No, saying that was to avoid smart ass remarks about how "oh, and what evidence do you have." Secondly, I am clearly talking about non-academic work. Yes, obviously a CV is and should be longer than one page (read earlier on this thread where I mention that). Nowhere in the quoted post do I discuss academia.


You need thicker skin if you want to be a lawyer. I was just pushing your buttons.

Digress: does anyone have any good lawyer jokes?

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:45 pm

Plan2008 wrote:
MrPapagiorgio wrote:No, saying that was to avoid smart ass remarks about how "oh, and what evidence do you have." Secondly, I am clearly talking about non-academic work. Yes, obviously a CV is and should be longer than one page (read earlier on this thread where I mention that). Nowhere in the quoted post do I discuss academia.


You need thicker skin if you want to be a lawyer. I was just pushing your buttons.

Digress: does anyone have any good lawyer jokes?

I see. It's difficult to tell that when its in writing. And when that is coupled with the usual douchebaggery that is rampant on this site, it is even more difficult.

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Upton Sinclair
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby Upton Sinclair » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:45 pm

Doesn't the application leave you plenty of space to list activities, experience, etc? I'd say keep the resume to one page, like you were applying for a job.

Also, the argument is moot because the resume doesn't do jack for your chances.

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BlakcMajikc
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby BlakcMajikc » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:31 pm

Upton Sinclair wrote:Also, the argument is moot because the resume doesn't do jack for your chances.



False. A crappy resume can definitely hurt your chances...

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ahduth
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby ahduth » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:35 pm

geoduck wrote:
MrPapagiorgio wrote:
BlakcMajikc wrote:Every MBA career center

geoduck wrote:What gave you the impression that employers demand resumes to be a single page? In my experience it's more likely to elicit a response of "That's it?". Now if you're breaking into three or four pages and you don't have some impressive successes or a long list of projects, that is a bit detrimental. Two pages is pretty much the sweet spot.


Thank you. Coming from parents that both have MBA's, I can tell you that employers do not want a laundry list of the fluff that a two page resume will have. They want to see your recent job history and your accomplishments (think "New company sales record for the 1st quarter" instead of "helped customer choose the proper product for their needs").

Obviously a law school resume and a work resume have their separate requirements. But for the future, leave the resume at one page. Do some research and you will find that I am simply echoing what most hiring managers say.


Funny. My pop's got edjumacation in that field too and does lots of hiring and firing. More pertinent to the conversation, I've been part of several hiring committees and we were generally underwhelmed by the one-pagers and found the three-pagers ridiculous.

This isn't a math equation; it's a sales tool. You are selling your candidacy. Some cramped, ugly resume that is difficult to read and expects the headers of each section to do the selling is generally going to be at a disadvantage to a well-formatted and thorough two pager. The standard chronological resume that you're talking about is at even more of a disadvantage in current times, when a large amount of highly qualified people are generally going for every position. A descriptive function or combined type resume is a far more powerful sales tool if done correctly.

Now if you only have one page of information, you only have one page. But I've seen a lot of resumes that were really and truly two pagers that are font-shrunken and margin-cramped into one giant block of text taking filling a single page to the brim. This helps nobody and is especially harmful if the people you are pitching to have backgrounds in design and aesthetics.


I love this fight, but my arms are too tired from shoveling to type so...

+1

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BlueDevil2007
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby BlueDevil2007 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:49 pm

ONE PAGE.

If you can't get it down to one page, you think too highly of your accomplishments.

neonx
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby neonx » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:18 am

I submitted a 2-page resume to each of my reach schools.

modmx
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby modmx » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:24 am

No Dean/Director I talked to at the law forums said there was a 1 page requirement

Mr. Faulk out of UVA specifically said that its such a trivial matter to worry about the 1 page requirement. He, and I quote, said "The more we know about you, the better"

r6_philly
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby r6_philly » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:28 am

modmx wrote:No Dean/Director I talked to at the law forums said there was a 1 page requirement

Mr. Faulk out of UVA specifically said that its such a trivial matter to worry about the 1 page requirement. He, and I quote, said "The more we know about you, the better"


I have come to the conclusion that the more people cut out of their resumes to fit onto one page, the more it benefits people with two-page resumes.

So carry on.

neonx
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Re: How long should the resume be on Application???

Postby neonx » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:30 am

r6_philly wrote:
modmx wrote:No Dean/Director I talked to at the law forums said there was a 1 page requirement

Mr. Faulk out of UVA specifically said that its such a trivial matter to worry about the 1 page requirement. He, and I quote, said "The more we know about you, the better"


I have come to the conclusion that the more people cut out of their resumes to fit onto one page, the more it benefits people with two-page resumes.

So carry on.


+1.

However, to qualify: my advice is to not strain to fill two pages. If you don't have the experience to back it up, you're wasting everyone's time (including your own.)




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