Penn for Chicago?

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niederbomb
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Penn for Chicago?

Postby niederbomb » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:27 am

I have been accepted at the University of Pennsylvania for law school. My goal, however, is to work in Chicago for personal reasons. I applied late, and to be honest, I was surprised to get into Penn because I am a rather average candidate, numberswise. If I don't get into Michigan or U of C this year, is Penn still an acceptable option? I don't have a provable connection to Chicago, although I have worked there in the past.

EDIT: sorry, wrong forum. Should have been under "choosing a law school."

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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:19 am

niederbomb wrote:I have been accepted at the University of Pennsylvania for law school. My goal, however, is to work in Chicago for personal reasons. I applied late, and to be honest, I was surprised to get into Penn because I am a rather average candidate, numberswise. If I don't get into Michigan or U of C this year, is Penn still an acceptable option? I don't have a provable connection to Chicago, although I have worked there in the past.

EDIT: sorry, wrong forum. Should have been under "choosing a law school."


Did you apply to NU?

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tome
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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby tome » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:41 pm

Penn is a great school. True, it is no NU, but it is nothing to sneeze at. I think you will be fine. If that is the only school you get into, you are in a great position.

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niederbomb
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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby niederbomb » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:23 am

Penn is no NU?

Not sure I understand. You mean for Chicago job placement or in general?

Job statistics at NU scare me. I applied because of the fee waiver.

Having such a low lawyer/judge reputation doesn't seem to have helped things in the bad economy.

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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:53 pm

niederbomb wrote:Penn is no NU?

Not sure I understand. You mean for Chicago job placement or in general?

Job statistics at NU scare me. I applied because of the fee waiver.

Having such a low lawyer/judge reputation doesn't seem to have helped things in the bad economy.


NU has good job statistics for a lower T14. Maybe slightly worse than Penn but slightly better than Michigan. The lawyer/judge rep score isn't a good way to judge the strength of a schools placement. It has a terrible response rate.

For Chicago as market it's better than both Penn and Michigan. Probably by a significant margin. If you aren't from Chicago you are going to have a hard time getting a job in Chicago from Penn. But if you are from Chicago you should be able to get Chicago big law from Penn. Only ten Chicago big law firms go to Penn's OCI, so you'd have to organized a mass mailing. Those don't usually have good results.

But Penn does better in NYC. If you don't mind going to NYC then Penn might be a little better at big law placement. It's hard to tell.

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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby sarahlawg » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:40 pm

Desert Fox wrote: If you aren't from Chicago you are going to have a hard time getting a job in Chicago from Penn. But if you are from Chicago you should be able to get Chicago big law from Penn.


I'm curious as to why being from the city matters so much? I have heard it a lot around these boards and I don't really get it.

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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:47 pm

sarahlawg wrote:
Desert Fox wrote: If you aren't from Chicago you are going to have a hard time getting a job in Chicago from Penn. But if you are from Chicago you should be able to get Chicago big law from Penn.


I'm curious as to why being from the city matters so much? I have heard it a lot around these boards and I don't really get it.


Because they don't believe you really want to work there. They fear that as soon as you get trained you will bolt to NYC or wherever you are from.

Another problem is that Chicago firms aren't going to fly to PENN to do interviews because not many people want to go to Chicago there. This was especially true when the economy crashed. Most big firms only went to Harvard, UChi, Michigan, and NU. Some firms are expanding again. And ten firms going is a decent amount, but Northwestern has 43, UChicago has 38, and Michigan has 37. And some of Chicago best firms are missing from Penn.

The real question is what happens if you are from, say, rural Wisconsin. I don't know if they'd believe it or not.

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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby sarahlawg » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:53 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
sarahlawg wrote:
Desert Fox wrote: If you aren't from Chicago you are going to have a hard time getting a job in Chicago from Penn. But if you are from Chicago you should be able to get Chicago big law from Penn.


I'm curious as to why being from the city matters so much? I have heard it a lot around these boards and I don't really get it.


Because they don't believe you really want to work there. They fear that as soon as you get trained you will bolt to NYC or wherever you are from.

Another problem is that Chicago firms aren't going to fly to PENN to do interviews because not many people want to go to Chicago there. This was especially true when the economy crashed. Most big firms only went to Harvard, UChi, Michigan, and NU. Some firms are expanding again. And ten firms going is a decent amount, but Northwestern has 43, UChicago has 38, and Michigan has 37. And some of Chicago best firms are missing from Penn.

The real question is what happens if you are from, say, rural Wisconsin. I don't know if they'd believe it or not.


Interesting! Thanks for the info.

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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby Sentry » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:07 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
sarahlawg wrote:
Desert Fox wrote: If you aren't from Chicago you are going to have a hard time getting a job in Chicago from Penn. But if you are from Chicago you should be able to get Chicago big law from Penn.


I'm curious as to why being from the city matters so much? I have heard it a lot around these boards and I don't really get it.


Because they don't believe you really want to work there. They fear that as soon as you get trained you will bolt to NYC or wherever you are from.

Another problem is that Chicago firms aren't going to fly to PENN to do interviews because not many people want to go to Chicago there. This was especially true when the economy crashed. Most big firms only went to Harvard, UChi, Michigan, and NU. Some firms are expanding again. And ten firms going is a decent amount, but Northwestern has 43, UChicago has 38, and Michigan has 37. And some of Chicago best firms are missing from Penn.

The real question is what happens if you are from, say, rural Wisconsin. I don't know if they'd believe it or not.

More firms come to Northwestern than UChicago? Any idea why that is?

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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:21 pm

Sentry wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
sarahlawg wrote:
Desert Fox wrote: If you aren't from Chicago you are going to have a hard time getting a job in Chicago from Penn. But if you are from Chicago you should be able to get Chicago big law from Penn.


I'm curious as to why being from the city matters so much? I have heard it a lot around these boards and I don't really get it.


Because they don't believe you really want to work there. They fear that as soon as you get trained you will bolt to NYC or wherever you are from.

Another problem is that Chicago firms aren't going to fly to PENN to do interviews because not many people want to go to Chicago there. This was especially true when the economy crashed. Most big firms only went to Harvard, UChi, Michigan, and NU. Some firms are expanding again. And ten firms going is a decent amount, but Northwestern has 43, UChicago has 38, and Michigan has 37. And some of Chicago best firms are missing from Penn.

The real question is what happens if you are from, say, rural Wisconsin. I don't know if they'd believe it or not.

More firms come to Northwestern than UChicago? Any idea why that is?


No idea. Some firms probably had trouble getting UChi kids to take an offer back in the old economy.

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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby niederbomb » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:51 pm

So how do Michigan kids convince Chicago employers that they want to stay? Are there really enough Michigan kids from Chicago that justifies them sending out 37 firms to recruit? Or can anyone at Michigan get Chicago (depending upon grades, of course)?

I'm from the rural South and would prefer to get out and stay out. I have no connections to any of the places I would like to live. What's my best approach to picking a school? I've been accepted to Michigan, GTown, and Penn and am hoping for U of C - but not too confident with such a late application. Should I wait a cycle and ED if I don't get in, or will M/P get me where I want to go?

I want to work in Chicago because I have a skeleton or two in my closet, and ideally, I would like to have Illinois's employment nondiscrimination laws backing me up. New York is different. Illinois's C&F also tends to be easier.

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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby tome » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:28 am

niederbomb wrote:So how do Michigan kids convince Chicago employers that they want to stay? Are there really enough Michigan kids from Chicago that justifies them sending out 37 firms to recruit? Or can anyone at Michigan get Chicago (depending upon grades, of course)?

I'm from the rural South and would prefer to get out and stay out. I have no connections to any of the places I would like to live. What's my best approach to picking a school? I've been accepted to Michigan, GTown, and Penn and am hoping for U of C - but not too confident with such a late application. Should I wait a cycle and ED if I don't get in, or will M/P get me where I want to go?

I want to work in Chicago because I have a skeleton or two in my closet, and ideally, I would like to have Illinois's employment nondiscrimination laws backing me up. New York is different. Illinois's C&F also tends to be easier.


First, I imagine that it is not hard at all to convince firms that you do not want to stay in Michigan. I do see more UM stickers than any other school at least in Lakeview/Lincoln Park area, and firms know that loads of people have traditionally come here. I guess the question I can't answer if those people are originally from Chicago. If you can answer that question in the negative, then you are probably safe going there. I am sure if you asked the admin office home many Illinois residents come to the law school each year, you would be well on your way to answering that question. You might also want to know how many Indiana and Wisconsin residents go there too.

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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby jeremysen » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:32 am

+1 to DF's comments
Desert Fox wrote:Only ten Chicago big law firms go to Penn's OCI, so you'd have to organized a mass mailing. Those don't usually have good results.
.
.
.
If you aren't from Chicago you are going to have a hard time getting a job in Chicago from Penn. But if you are from Chicago you should be able to get Chicago big law from Penn.



Edited to include quotes
Last edited by jeremysen on Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:36 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby d34d9823 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:32 am

Desert Fox wrote: Maybe slightly worse than Penn but slightly better than Michigan.

WTF is this nonsense?

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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby johnnyutah » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:23 am

Desert Fox wrote:
sarahlawg wrote:
I'm curious as to why being from the city matters so much? I have heard it a lot around these boards and I don't really get it.


Because they don't believe you really want to work there. They fear that as soon as you get trained you will bolt to NYC or wherever you are from.

The physical location of your law school also matters in case you strike out at OCI. You've got many more opportunities to network your way to a job in the city you're physically in.

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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:40 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote: Maybe slightly worse than Penn but slightly better than Michigan.

WTF is this nonsense?


The truth.

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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby Veyron » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:29 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote: Maybe slightly worse than Penn but slightly better than Michigan.

WTF is this nonsense?


The truth.


Probably true but not sure how much of it comes from the fact that NU students have better WE and are thus better canidates v.s. how much comes from the strength of the school name vis a vis others.

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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:32 pm

Veyron wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote: Maybe slightly worse than Penn but slightly better than Michigan.

WTF is this nonsense?


The truth.


Probably true but not sure how much of it comes from the fact that NU students have better WE and are thus better canidates v.s. how much comes from the strength of the school name vis a vis others.


A lot of it comes from NU owning the Chicago market, and having a smaller class size.

Michigan's small prestige bumb in NYC is more than made up for in Chicago and with NU's smaller class. If NU was Michigan's size it would definitely place worse.

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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby Veyron » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:37 pm

[/quote]

Probably true but not sure how much of it comes from the fact that NU students have better WE and are thus better canidates v.s. how much comes from the strength of the school name vis a vis others.[/quote]

A lot of it comes from NU owning the Chicago market, and having a smaller class size.

Michigan's small prestige bumb in NYC is more than made up for in Chicago and with NU's smaller class. If NU was Michigan's size it would definitely place worse.[/quote]


Does NU own the chicago market only bc of class size or because the kids have better WE or because the school is better?

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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby d34d9823 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:44 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote: Maybe slightly worse than Penn but slightly better than Michigan.

WTF is this nonsense?


The truth.

OK, I went and looked it up and this is bullshit. Michigan has beaten Penn the last two years on the NLJ 250 list.

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Veyron
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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby Veyron » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:10 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote: Maybe slightly worse than Penn but slightly better than Michigan.

WTF is this nonsense?


The truth.

OK, I went and looked it up and this is bullshit. Michigan has beaten Penn the last two years on the NLJ 250 list.


A wise man once said,
NLJ 250 list have many problems
From pre-crash one
Self low response rate other
Yale and Harvard being ranked below NU for biglaw placement yet another,
Many others of which I cannot now think.
Please, use search.

09042014
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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:31 pm

Veyron wrote:

Does NU own the chicago market only bc of class size or because the kids have better WE or because the school is better?


Alumni network, and local prestige I assume. It goes back before the WE requirements, and I doubt anyone can tell which school is better. But if you are from Chicago and you want to work in Chicago, why not spend three years living in Chicago going to law school. For a long time Northwestern took a very high percentage of students from the midwest, while Michigan went more national.

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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:40 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote: Maybe slightly worse than Penn but slightly better than Michigan.

WTF is this nonsense?


The truth.

OK, I went and looked it up and this is bullshit. Michigan has beaten Penn the last two years on the NLJ 250 list.


Huh? Penn beat Michigan by over 10% in 2007 and 2008, and only lost to Penn by .2% in a year when every school that feeds NYC got hammered by "no offers."

Did 2010 Data come out yet?

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tome
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Re: Penn for Chicago?

Postby tome » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:27 am

At the end of the day, the same student would probably do about as well at Penn, NU and Michigan, assuming ties to the targeted market. So this is all largely bullshit and irrelevant.




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