Law School Deception

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niederbomb
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Re: Law School Deception

Postby niederbomb » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:46 am

blsingindisguise wrote:
niederbomb wrote:I
If the media published an article quoting a bunch of jobless T10 grads, then I think more people on this board would take notice. I do, however, have a hard time believing that a graduate of an Ivy League (or equivalent) university in ANY field would remain jobless for long. After all, couldn't you always take your Columbia JD (or better, JD/MBA) to China and find something?

Forgive me for being skeptical, but I am open-minded, and I am willing to hear from jobless T10 grads if they exist. I really don't want to hear about anyone's T2-T4 sob stories. I have no sympathy whatsoever for you. You're an idiot if you attend anything other than a T14 or the top school in your state.


Well, I don't need your sympathy because I have no debt and a job I like. However, I have heard plenty of stories about T10 misery. Of course it's not as bad as for T2s, but it's not what it used to be either. I worked with a bunch of interns from Columbia and there was a law review student who was shut out at OCI. A friend from NYU who graduated a few years ago told me that most of his friends from law school are already no longer practicing, either because they were laid off or because they were miserable. I've certainly seen articles that quote unemployed T10 grads.

Ultimately I still find it hard to believe a top school degree is a terrible investment too, with the caveat that more than ever you have to know why you're going and be prepared for grueling work that is in no way sexy or interesting. Your "take it to China" quote was kind of adorably naive so I won't bother responding to it. Just go in understanding that for most students even at T10 schools, the options are going to be biglaw or a handful of govt agencies and non-profits, and that there's a not insubstantial risk of unemployment on graduation, or if not that then early career layoff or burnout.


Not in my personal experience.

Why so limited? My state (Texas) is full of a range of small to mid to large firms. If I go to UT or a T14, why couldn't I choose what I want? If Houston or SMU graduates are still getting ANY jobs (some of them are), then I should be fine going to a higher-ranked school.

I know a local lawyer who claims that recent law school grads don't have jobs because they unduly limit themselves to certain kinds of jobs. They won't, for example, choose an in-house job at a small company for $50,000 with the possibility for infinite upward mobility. Everyone expects to be making six-figures at a law firm doing glamorous work right after passing the bar, and some of them won't settle for anything less.

In reality, a plurality of lawyers don't even practice law. It's not the "JD" that gets them good opportunities. It's a prestige of the school that confers it and the school's broader network. That's his opinion. I don't know how the system works, but I expect the school name itself can open more doors than some egg headed egalitarians realize.

Am I missing something? I have the option now of going to UT tuition free or a T7 (hopefully half-ride). I'm going to turn it down....to teach History?

I really want Big Law Chicago. I am (rightly) quite worried here.

From the article:

The University of Texas School of Law, long regarded as among the nation's top 20, estimates the employment rate for 2010 graduates is down about 10% to 15% from last year.


That's still a nearly 80% employment rate. And it doesn't say how long the bottom 20% of the class stays unemployed. What's the unemployment rate for History doctorates?
Last edited by niederbomb on Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

BlueDiamond
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Re: Law School Deception

Postby BlueDiamond » Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:48 am

niederbomb wrote:
blsingindisguise wrote:
niederbomb wrote:I
If the media published an article quoting a bunch of jobless T10 grads, then I think more people on this board would take notice. I do, however, have a hard time believing that a graduate of an Ivy League (or equivalent) university in ANY field would remain jobless for long. After all, couldn't you always take your Columbia JD (or better, JD/MBA) to China and find something?

Forgive me for being skeptical, but I am open-minded, and I am willing to hear from jobless T10 grads if they exist. I really don't want to hear about anyone's T2-T4 sob stories. I have no sympathy whatsoever for you. You're an idiot if you attend anything other than a T14 or the top school in your state.


Well, I don't need your sympathy because I have no debt and a job I like. However, I have heard plenty of stories about T10 misery. Of course it's not as bad as for T2s, but it's not what it used to be either. I worked with a bunch of interns from Columbia and there was a law review student who was shut out at OCI. A friend from NYU who graduated a few years ago told me that most of his friends from law school are already no longer practicing, either because they were laid off or because they were miserable. I've certainly seen articles that quote unemployed T10 grads.

Ultimately I still find it hard to believe a top school degree is a terrible investment too, with the caveat that more than ever you have to know why you're going and be prepared for grueling work that is in no way sexy or interesting. Your "take it to China" quote was kind of adorably naive so I won't bother responding to it. Just go in understanding that for most students even at T10 schools, the options are going to be biglaw or a handful of govt agencies and non-profits, and that there's a not insubstantial risk of unemployment on graduation, or if not that then early career layoff or burnout.


Not in my personal experience.

Why so limited? My state (Texas) is full of a range of small to mid to large firms. If I go to UT or a T14, why couldn't I choose what I want? If Houston or SMU graduates are still getting ANY jobs (some of them are), then I should be fine going to a higher-ranked school.

I know a local lawyer who claims that recent law school grads don't have jobs because they unduly limit themselves to certain kinds of jobs. They won't, for example, choose an in-house job at a small company for $50,000 with the possibility for infinite upward mobility. Everyone expects to be making six-figures at a law firm doing glamorous work right after passing the bar, and some of them won't settle for anything less.

In reality, a plurality of lawyers don't even practice law. It's not the "JD" that gets them good opportunities. It's a prestige of the school that confers it and the school's broader network. That's his opinion. I don't know how the system works, but I expect the school name itself can open more doors than some egg headed egalitarians realize.

Am I missing something? I have the option now of going to UT tuition free or a T7 (hopefully half-ride). I'm going to turn it down....to teach History?

I really want Big Law Chicago. I am (rightly) quite worried here.


Yes

A&O
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Re: Law School Deception

Postby A&O » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:00 am

I have the option now of going to UT tuition free or a T7 (hopefully half-ride).


You know you can just say UPenn, right?

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JazzOne
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Re: Law School Deception

Postby JazzOne » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:19 am

glitched wrote:only on TLS do i feel like shit for getting in anywhere outside of HYS... or hamilton at columbia. cause outside of that... you won't find the job you love.

thankfully, outside of this, i feel pretty happy :) I think it's time to quit TLS. i'll update LSN at the end of my cycle for future generations sake.

GL everyone. And whenever you feel down, just know that eventually no matter what you will die and the people at your deathbed won't care where you went to LS. that somehow always cheers me up. it's almost ironic.

You better not die at the office then.

ctxmike
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Re: Law School Deception

Postby ctxmike » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:30 pm

Leira7905 wrote:Okay, in all seriousness... I get what the 3Ls are saying... There are extremely low job prospects for graduating attorneys. However, what the hell else am I gonna do?

1. Like a lot of law school hopefuls, I have a degree in Political Science. POLITICAL SCIENCE. What kind of job does one get with that, exactly?

2. I'm 31 years old. I've been working as a paralegal for four and a half years. I suppose I could continue working as a paralegal, but in about 5 years from now I will have reached the ceiling of my earning potential as such.... Paralegals generally top out at around 45-50K per year with benefits. Very rarely do I come into contact with a paralegal (even a highly experienced one) who makes a whole lot more than that. Where does one go from paralegal? How do I move up from here?

3. Since I have been working with attorneys for a few years now, I've already been networking. I've got a jump on it because I've already gotten to show a few people what I can do. I know two attorneys right now who would be willing to let me join them after graduation. (No these are not BigLaw prospects, but they're a way for me to gain some experience while making somewhat of an income).

I'm not saying my case is typical. Maybe all the warnings are directed more for younger, inexperience, 0Ls with no concept of the realities of becoming an attorney. But either way, realize that not ALL of us are going in with our eyes closed. For some of us, law school really is the next logical step in our lives.


1. Pretty much any job in marketing, public relations, research, management, etc... A lot of the BAs from my undergraduate nail jobs making 40-50k a year straight out of college with possibilities of moving up. I do go to a T20 undergrad, but I'm certain many state school graduates find a way to make it happen. Communication/writing skills are still needed today, though not as desperately as technical skills, admittedly.

2. Yah, you might be stuck with this one.

3. If you feel you've networked well enough to secure employment after graduation, then I don't see anything wrong with going for it. That being said, you could always go back to school and get a degree in something more practical, such as engineering or computer science. Or perhaps consider a career in healthcare/medicine?

I'm not trying talk down to you, just saying that there ARE options out there, though you may have to step out of your comfort zone.

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Leira7905
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Re: Law School Deception

Postby Leira7905 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:43 pm

ctxmike wrote:
Leira7905 wrote:Okay, in all seriousness... I get what the 3Ls are saying... There are extremely low job prospects for graduating attorneys. However, what the hell else am I gonna do?

1. Like a lot of law school hopefuls, I have a degree in Political Science. POLITICAL SCIENCE. What kind of job does one get with that, exactly?

2. I'm 31 years old. I've been working as a paralegal for four and a half years. I suppose I could continue working as a paralegal, but in about 5 years from now I will have reached the ceiling of my earning potential as such.... Paralegals generally top out at around 45-50K per year with benefits. Very rarely do I come into contact with a paralegal (even a highly experienced one) who makes a whole lot more than that. Where does one go from paralegal? How do I move up from here?

3. Since I have been working with attorneys for a few years now, I've already been networking. I've got a jump on it because I've already gotten to show a few people what I can do. I know two attorneys right now who would be willing to let me join them after graduation. (No these are not BigLaw prospects, but they're a way for me to gain some experience while making somewhat of an income).

I'm not saying my case is typical. Maybe all the warnings are directed more for younger, inexperience, 0Ls with no concept of the realities of becoming an attorney. But either way, realize that not ALL of us are going in with our eyes closed. For some of us, law school really is the next logical step in our lives.


1. Pretty much any job in marketing, public relations, research, management, etc... A lot of the BAs from my undergraduate nail jobs making 40-50k a year straight out of college with possibilities of moving up. I do go to a T20 undergrad, but I'm certain many state school graduates find a way to make it happen. Communication/writing skills are still needed today, though not as desperately as technical skills, admittedly.

2. Yah, you might be stuck with this one.

3. If you feel you've networked well enough to secure employment after graduation, then I don't see anything wrong with going for it. That being said, you could always go back to school and get a degree in something more practical, such as engineering or computer science. Or perhaps consider a career in healthcare/medicine?

I'm not trying talk down to you, just saying that there ARE options out there, though you may have to step out of your comfort zone.


Or, I can just go to law school like I have been planning all along. I'm guessing in that those, PR, marketing, management jobs will still be there in three years. Why would I waste many thousand dollars to start over my education in engineering or healthcare when I have absolutely no interest in those fields? That seems like an even bigger risk than taking the law school plunge.

I'm not looking for an excuse not to go to law school. I like working in the legal field. Unlike the majority of current law school students, I actually have a practical background in doing legal research, drafting pleadings, responding to discovery, interacting with clients, courthouse filing, etc, etc.

I was trying to make the point that with my background, both educationally and professionally, law school is a GOOD option for me, personally. Although, it may not be for others. I already know that this is where I belong.

ctxmike
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Re: Law School Deception

Postby ctxmike » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:08 pm

Leira7905 wrote:
ctxmike wrote:
Leira7905 wrote:Okay, in all seriousness... I get what the 3Ls are saying... There are extremely low job prospects for graduating attorneys. However, what the hell else am I gonna do?

1. Like a lot of law school hopefuls, I have a degree in Political Science. POLITICAL SCIENCE. What kind of job does one get with that, exactly?

2. I'm 31 years old. I've been working as a paralegal for four and a half years. I suppose I could continue working as a paralegal, but in about 5 years from now I will have reached the ceiling of my earning potential as such.... Paralegals generally top out at around 45-50K per year with benefits. Very rarely do I come into contact with a paralegal (even a highly experienced one) who makes a whole lot more than that. Where does one go from paralegal? How do I move up from here?

3. Since I have been working with attorneys for a few years now, I've already been networking. I've got a jump on it because I've already gotten to show a few people what I can do. I know two attorneys right now who would be willing to let me join them after graduation. (No these are not BigLaw prospects, but they're a way for me to gain some experience while making somewhat of an income).

I'm not saying my case is typical. Maybe all the warnings are directed more for younger, inexperience, 0Ls with no concept of the realities of becoming an attorney. But either way, realize that not ALL of us are going in with our eyes closed. For some of us, law school really is the next logical step in our lives.


1. Pretty much any job in marketing, public relations, research, management, etc... A lot of the BAs from my undergraduate nail jobs making 40-50k a year straight out of college with possibilities of moving up. I do go to a T20 undergrad, but I'm certain many state school graduates find a way to make it happen. Communication/writing skills are still needed today, though not as desperately as technical skills, admittedly.

2. Yah, you might be stuck with this one.

3. If you feel you've networked well enough to secure employment after graduation, then I don't see anything wrong with going for it. That being said, you could always go back to school and get a degree in something more practical, such as engineering or computer science. Or perhaps consider a career in healthcare/medicine?

I'm not trying talk down to you, just saying that there ARE options out there, though you may have to step out of your comfort zone.


Or, I can just go to law school like I have been planning all along. I'm guessing in that those, PR, marketing, management jobs will still be there in three years. Why would I waste many thousand dollars to start over my education in engineering or healthcare when I have absolutely no interest in those fields? That seems like an even bigger risk than taking the law school plunge.

I'm not looking for an excuse not to go to law school. I like working in the legal field. Unlike the majority of current law school students, I actually have a practical background in doing legal research, drafting pleadings, responding to discovery, interacting with clients, courthouse filing, etc, etc.

I was trying to make the point that with my background, both educationally and professionally, law school is a GOOD option for me, personally. Although, it may not be for others. I already know that this is where I belong.


I understand what you meant and would agree, that law school is the best (though I still wouldn't say 'safest') option for you. I was merely pointing out the fact that there are options for liberal arts major that extend beyond law school. I often hear people ask (and you seem to reflect it in your original statement) "what am I going to do with this useless liberal arts degree?" as if those 4 years of copious writing, analysis, and critique left you with no skill set, whatsoever.

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romothesavior
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Re: Law School Deception

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:37 pm

glitched wrote:only on TLS do i feel like shit for getting in anywhere outside of HYS... or hamilton at columbia. cause outside of that... you won't find the job you love.

thankfully, outside of this, i feel pretty happy :) I think it's time to quit TLS. i'll update LSN at the end of my cycle for future generations sake.

GL everyone. And whenever you feel down, just know that eventually no matter what you will die and the people at your deathbed won't care where you went to LS. that somehow always cheers me up. it's almost ironic.

Super cool story bro, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

And nieder, let us know which one of the plethora of options you choose when you're median at UT. I know it will be hard picking between CHINABIGLAWL and that 80k Associate General Counsel at a Fortune 500, but I'm sure you're make the right choice.

blsingindisguise
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Re: Law School Deception

Postby blsingindisguise » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:25 pm

niederbomb wrote:Why so limited? My state (Texas) is full of a range of small to mid to large firms. If I go to UT or a T14, why couldn't I choose what I want? If Houston or SMU graduates are still getting ANY jobs (some of them are), then I should be fine going to a higher-ranked school.

I know a local lawyer who claims that recent law school grads don't have jobs because they unduly limit themselves to certain kinds of jobs. They won't, for example, choose an in-house job at a small company for $50,000 with the possibility for infinite upward mobility. Everyone expects to be making six-figures at a law firm doing glamorous work right after passing the bar, and some of them won't settle for anything less.

In reality, a plurality of lawyers don't even practice law. It's not the "JD" that gets them good opportunities. It's a prestige of the school that confers it and the school's broader network. That's his opinion. I don't know how the system works, but I expect the school name itself can open more doors than some egg headed egalitarians realize.

Am I missing something?



There is virtually no such thing as a small company in-house job for a recent graduate. Most small companies don't have in-house counsel at all, and the ones that do are going to hire someone with many years of experience (think about it -- are you going to trust a new graduate to make sure that you don't run afoul of the SEC or risk multi-million dollar litigation with clients?). There may be some 40-50k jobs out there at small firms that do things like bankruptcy, personal injury, insurance defense. The problem with these is that, even if you can get one in this economy, taking them is a little like getting on the wrong track. Once you miss out on big law firm jobs and the more prestigious government agencies and non-profits it becomes very difficult to get back to them. The experience and contacts you develop working for a little personal bankruptcy mill aren't going to do much to set you up for a more prestigious or lucrative career later unless you just want to one day run a successful personal bankruptcy mill yourself.

Of course, even those jobs aren't so easy to come by, and your prestigious top school degree may not even be an advantage, ironically, since it's a signal that you probably think you're too good for the work and don't really want to stick with it if you get a better opportunity.

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retake
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Re: Law School Deception

Postby retake » Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:49 pm

Get a fucking job. HTH




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