Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

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androstan
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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby androstan » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:24 pm

r6_philly wrote:
androstan wrote:Replace GPA with rank in major.

That is all.


What if you go to a crappy or small program?


It's not perfect but it's better than GPA.

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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:25 pm

Kabuo wrote:
Except that this is supposedly gauging academic potential. That GPA split shows to me someone who screwed around their first 2 years of college and then became serious about their academics. LS admissions isn't supposed to be a referendum on 19 year old immaturity; it's supposed to be about assembling a diverse and capable class. Assume that those 4.0s came in his upper level courses, then try to tell me that this individual is equal to someone who went 3.4 every semester and got the same LSAT. The constant 3.4 shows me that that's what he is. At least you know the late bloomer has the potential to get a 4.0 - you don't know that about the 3.4.


Some people who has the potentials actually received 4.0's. You need to be able to be able to distinguish them apart from the others.

on the 3.4 the easy way or hard way - I will take consistency, thank you, they are more reliable.

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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:26 pm

androstan wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
androstan wrote:Replace GPA with rank in major.

That is all.


What if you go to a crappy or small program?


It's not perfect but it's better than GPA.


No it isn't. Class rank is even worse equator from school to school than the GPA.

09042014
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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:27 pm

TheTallOne0602 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Sandro777 wrote:GPA should count for half as much as it does now in admissions. 75% LSAT 25% GPA.


IMO GPA should be heavily weighed but in a more subjective fashion. There shouldn't be a LSAC gpa. If some guy goes 2.0, 2.5, 3.5 , 4.0, 4.0, 4.0, 4.0 a school should be allowed to consider his record. Instead LSAC makes that a 3.4.

Trying to turn GPA into an objective universal measure is silly.


I have never understood why wasting yourself away for a year or two should be acceptable, as long as you start taking things seriously at the end. Someone who goes 2.0, 2.5, 3.5, 4.0, 4.0, 4.0, 4.0 deserves to be seen as a 3.4. That's what they did.


Because admissions isn't a reward for how well you've done, it's supposed to be a way to predict how well you will do. Of course I'd say that if someone else had a 3.9 all four semester that should be looked on more favorably. But if some dude had a 3.5 all four years he never matured, or he never figured it out.

Someone's grades from when they were 18 and 19 shouldn't haunt them forever.

Also someone who tried engineering or premed who found it wasn't for them, shouldn't be punished for trying something difficult and then moving to something that better suited them.

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androstan
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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby androstan » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:28 pm

r6_philly wrote:
androstan wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
androstan wrote:Replace GPA with rank in major.

That is all.


What if you go to a crappy or small program?


It's not perfect but it's better than GPA.


No it isn't. Class rank is even worse equator from school to school than the GPA.


Reference?

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TatteredDignity
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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby TatteredDignity » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:28 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Kabuo wrote:
Except that this is supposedly gauging academic potential. That GPA split shows to me someone who screwed around their first 2 years of college and then became serious about their academics. LS admissions isn't supposed to be a referendum on 19 year old immaturity; it's supposed to be about assembling a diverse and capable class. Assume that those 4.0s came in his upper level courses, then try to tell me that this individual is equal to someone who went 3.4 every semester and got the same LSAT. The constant 3.4 shows me that that's what he is. At least you know the late bloomer has the potential to get a 4.0 - you don't know that about the 3.4.


Some people who has the potentials actually received 4.0's. You need to be able to be able to distinguish them apart from the others.

on the 3.4 the easy way or hard way - I will take consistency, thank you, they are more reliable.


Clearly trolling for top CA law schools and their stupid love affair with GPA.

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oshberg28
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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby oshberg28 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:28 pm

Is it possible that part of the GPA discrepancy is a result of private schools attracting a larger quantity of quality applicants (above average), whereas public institutions attract more below average applicants (largely due to cost)?

No, I didn't attend a private college.

09042014
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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:29 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Kabuo wrote:
Except that this is supposedly gauging academic potential. That GPA split shows to me someone who screwed around their first 2 years of college and then became serious about their academics. LS admissions isn't supposed to be a referendum on 19 year old immaturity; it's supposed to be about assembling a diverse and capable class. Assume that those 4.0s came in his upper level courses, then try to tell me that this individual is equal to someone who went 3.4 every semester and got the same LSAT. The constant 3.4 shows me that that's what he is. At least you know the late bloomer has the potential to get a 4.0 - you don't know that about the 3.4.


Some people who has the potentials actually received 4.0's. You need to be able to be able to distinguish them apart from the others.

on the 3.4 the easy way or hard way - I will take consistency, thank you, they are more reliable.


Reliably mediocre isn't commendable.

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The Gentleman
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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby The Gentleman » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:30 pm

Everyone I know who has a shit gpa (<3.3) got poor grades b/c they slacked/partied/skipped class etc., not because of the grade distribution. But I went to a low ranked state school.

TheOcho
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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby TheOcho » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:30 pm

Kabuo wrote:Except that this is supposedly gauging academic potential. That GPA split shows to me someone who screwed around their first 2 years of college and then became serious about their academics. LS admissions isn't supposed to be a referendum on 19 year old immaturity; it's supposed to be about assembling a diverse and capable class. Assume that those 4.0s came in his upper level courses, then try to tell me that this individual is equal to someone who went 3.4 every semester and got the same LSAT. The constant 3.4 shows me that that's what he is. At least you know the late bloomer has the potential to get a 4.0 - you don't know that about the 3.4.


This.

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edgarfigaro
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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby edgarfigaro » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:03 pm

oshberg28 wrote:Is it possible that part of the GPA discrepancy is a result of private schools attracting a larger quantity of quality applicants (above average), whereas public institutions attract more below average applicants (largely due to cost)?

No, I didn't attend a private college.


No, it's because the paying customer wouldn't pay a premium for subpar grades. Had one professor out and out state he had a B+ median for this very reason.

It's even worse when you factor in the for profit colleges...

Sandro
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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby Sandro » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:05 pm

Excel wrote:
Sandro777 wrote:GPA should count for half as much as it does now in admissions. 75% LSAT 25% GPA.


word, who needs worth ethic?????? amirite????


Oh you're right - law school is all about "worth ethic" and your GPA is a reliable indicator of that. All it takes in law school is some elbow grease and the ability to pump out mindless homework assignments / create powerpoint slides and you will have an awesome gpa!

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oshberg28
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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby oshberg28 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:06 pm

edgarfigaro wrote:
oshberg28 wrote:Is it possible that part of the GPA discrepancy is a result of private schools attracting a larger quantity of quality applicants (above average), whereas public institutions attract more below average applicants (largely due to cost)?

No, I didn't attend a private college.


No, it's because the paying customer wouldn't pay a premium for subpar grades. Had one professor out and out state he had a B+ median for this very reason.

It's even worse when you factor in the for profit colleges...


So you think people go to private schools because, as paying customers, they want and expect grade inflation? And you're basing this hypothesis on one professor you had?

rundoxierun
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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby rundoxierun » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:11 pm

oshberg28 wrote:
edgarfigaro wrote:
oshberg28 wrote:Is it possible that part of the GPA discrepancy is a result of private schools attracting a larger quantity of quality applicants (above average), whereas public institutions attract more below average applicants (largely due to cost)?

No, I didn't attend a private college.


No, it's because the paying customer wouldn't pay a premium for subpar grades. Had one professor out and out state he had a B+ median for this very reason.

It's even worse when you factor in the for profit colleges...


So you think people go to private schools because, as paying customers, they want and expect grade inflation? And you're basing this hypothesis on one professor you had?


TBF, it probably has more to do with retention than the choosing of the school. Most people wouldnt choose the school based on grade inflation but they may choose to transfer to their state school if they get low grades. State schools dont usually have that issue.

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rinkrat19
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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby rinkrat19 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:18 pm

androstan wrote:Replace GPA with rank in major.

That is all.


Thus screwing the people who chose hard programs of study filled almost entirely with very smart people.

I'd love to be competing against the people majoring in International Basket Weaving, but stupid me, I chose engineering. (Even further screwed by my masses of AP credit allowing me to skip--without earning all those nice fat As--most of the easy required core fluff classes.)

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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby acadec » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:20 pm

androstan wrote:Replace GPA with rank in major.

That is all.

You have to apply for my major, and only 14 people a year get in. We're all probably in the top 5-10% of the class in general, but 50% of us would necessarily be below average in your system.

I'm an extreme example, but it points out the stupidity of reducing as nuanced and complex a factor as ug transcript to one number, be it LSAC GPA or rank in major.

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edgarfigaro
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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby edgarfigaro » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:22 pm

oshberg28 wrote:
edgarfigaro wrote:
oshberg28 wrote:Is it possible that part of the GPA discrepancy is a result of private schools attracting a larger quantity of quality applicants (above average), whereas public institutions attract more below average applicants (largely due to cost)?

No, I didn't attend a private college.


No, it's because the paying customer wouldn't pay a premium for subpar grades. Had one professor out and out state he had a B+ median for this very reason.

It's even worse when you factor in the for profit colleges...


So you think people go to private schools because, as paying customers, they want and expect grade inflation? And you're basing this hypothesis on one professor you had?


People will not stick around paying 40-50k to get grades that will sink them in the job market/post grad admissions.

Also, you need to realize how many really really crappy private schools there are out in the world. For every Harvard or Yale, there's 5-10 crap colleges that no one other than their alumni have heard of.

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sanjola
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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby sanjola » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:27 pm

kls120 wrote:
sanjola wrote:
softsgalore wrote:Image


FML. I could have used some of that much-touted grade inflation. Apparently going to a private school could pretty readily have meant an extra .2 on the old GPA. Lesson for law school applicants: spend early, spend often, because USNWR rankings don't give a shit how much your $40k/year private undergrad institution inflated its grades.



It's not that serious. A 3.8 and 3.82 doesn't make a difference. Plus, public colleges are way cheaper.





SERIOUSLY???????????????????????? I bet u went to private college


What the hell are you talking about? Public is cheaper than private.

I did got to a private university. What's your point?

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sanjola
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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby sanjola » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:28 pm

softsgalore wrote:Sanjola, that's a .2, not a .02. As in, the difference between a 3.5 and a 3.7. A whoooole lot of law schools look a lot differently at a 3.7 than a 3.5.



Oh my bad :oops:

Yeah that makes a huge difference. Do public colleges really do that!?

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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby HowdyYall » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:31 pm

oshberg28 wrote:Is it possible that part of the GPA discrepancy is a result of private schools attracting a larger quantity of quality applicants (above average), whereas public institutions attract more below average applicants (largely due to cost)?

No, I didn't attend a private college.


maybe this, or because many (certainly not all or even most) private college kids are mature enough to realize that $50,000 per year is a hell of a lot to pay to be making all C's. I go to a private school (im pretty awesome, i know) and one of our newspapers calculated the average cost per lecture as $83. Thats about as much as 12 sexual acts and a "ping pong show" in Thailand....

r6_philly
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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:31 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Reliably mediocre isn't commendable.


Depends on who's doing the hiring.

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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby HopefulFish » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:31 pm

Kabuo wrote:
TheTallOne0602 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Sandro777 wrote:GPA should count for half as much as it does now in admissions. 75% LSAT 25% GPA.


IMO GPA should be heavily weighed but in a more subjective fashion. There shouldn't be a LSAC gpa. If some guy goes 2.0, 2.5, 3.5 , 4.0, 4.0, 4.0, 4.0 a school should be allowed to consider his record. Instead LSAC makes that a 3.4.

Trying to turn GPA into an objective universal measure is silly.


I have never understood why wasting yourself away for a year or two should be acceptable, as long as you start taking things seriously at the end. Someone who goes 2.0, 2.5, 3.5, 4.0, 4.0, 4.0, 4.0 deserves to be seen as a 3.4. That's what they did.


Except that this is supposedly gauging academic potential. That GPA split shows to me someone who screwed around their first 2 years of college and then became serious about their academics. LS admissions isn't supposed to be a referendum on 19 year old immaturity; it's supposed to be about assembling a diverse and capable class. Assume that those 4.0s came in his upper level courses, then try to tell me that this individual is equal to someone who went 3.4 every semester and got the same LSAT. The constant 3.4 shows me that that's what he is. At least you know the late bloomer has the potential to get a 4.0 - you don't know that about the 3.4.


You fail to take into account that a person who has consistently gotten 3.4 in lower + upper division courses is equally capable of doing well elsewhere. That consistency could also mean the person had to work 40hrs a week.

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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby acirilli1722 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:36 pm

I don't think it's easier to get better grades at a private school, just harder to fail. Private schools probably don't fail as many students because they need to keep as many as possible to make money since they don't get state funding. Public schools probably tend to have a lot more of the 2.0 and below students which hurts the average. Besides that it really doesn't matter where you go for undergrad, a 4.0 at the worst public school looks the same as a 4.0 at the best private school in terms of potential law students since the number is all that will affect the school USNWR rankings, not the school.

r6_philly
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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:37 pm

I want to articulate this argument:

One of the reasons people do badly in first year of college is because some students take longer to adapt, to "get into a groove". So it takes freshman year to adapt and start to perform to potential after that. That seems to fit most of the argument for upward trend. Well guess what happens in law school? 1. Your career outlook is largely dependent on first semester/year grades 2. the only comparable part of each school's curriculum is the 1L classes because they are very similar everywhere.

So if you want to talk about potentials, well people who get a 4.0 throughout college is more likely to do well in 1L year than people who struggled when they got into college at first. No I don't have research data, but that is built on the common reasons that people give for bad freshman year grades.

So why should law school discount your first year grades? It is another big transition for most people coming out of UG, like HS to college.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: Why, god, did I go to a public institution for undergrad?!

Postby TatteredDignity » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:51 pm

r6_philly wrote:I want to articulate this argument:

One of the reasons people do badly in first year of college is because some students take longer to adapt, to "get into a groove". So it takes freshman year to adapt and start to perform to potential after that. That seems to fit most of the argument for upward trend. Well guess what happens in law school? 1. Your career outlook is largely dependent on first semester/year grades 2. the only comparable part of each school's curriculum is the 1L classes because they are very similar everywhere.

So if you want to talk about potentials, well people who get a 4.0 throughout college is more likely to do well in 1L year than people who struggled when they got into college at first. No I don't have research data, but that is built on the common reasons that people give for bad freshman year grades.

So why should law school discount your first year grades? It is another big transition for most people coming out of UG, like HS to college.


Yeah, but the transition you outlined for HS to UG isn't always the case. Sometimes (I would argue most times) it's not a transition of figuring out how to study differently/better from HS to UG, but figuring out how to take life seriously and not be a 19 yr old free spirit. That's not the same transition that has to happen all over again from UG to LS.




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