Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

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Zarathustraspoke
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby Zarathustraspoke » Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:32 pm

romothesavior wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:I'm sorry - but thinking "everything will work out" is very irresponsible when talking about 6-figure debts.

Absolutely this. 0Ls continue to dive headfirst into 6-figure debt with no concept of how bad things are, and they convince themselves it will be okay. Then when some current student, recent graduate, or even the New York Times or ABA comes along and says, "You're about to make a massive mistake," they write it off as elitism and reassure themselves they can finish in the top 10% and just work really hard to get a job.



it's all about he connections, baby!

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romothesavior
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:32 pm

gens1tb wrote:So, a T3 education is like taking out a $100,000 loan then going to a casino and putting it all on black.


Actually, your odds of success are nearly 5-10 times higher putting all your money on black as they are getting a big firm job out of a T3/T4. And at some really terrible T3/T4 schools, your odds of winning by betting black are probably at least 2-3 times higher than your odds of getting any permanent legal job requiring a JD.

You wouldn't put 200k on black, so why would you put 200k on a significantly worse investment? Oh yeah, cause you'll work hard and network. :lol:

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AreJay711
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby AreJay711 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:37 pm

romothesavior wrote:
gens1tb wrote:So, a T3 education is like taking out a $100,000 loan then going to a casino and putting it all on black.


Actually, your odds of success are nearly 5-10 times higher putting all your money on black as they are getting a big firm job out of a T3/T4. And at some really terrible T3/T4 schools, your odds of winning by betting black are probably at least 2-3 times higher than your odds of getting any permanent legal job requiring a JD.

You wouldn't put 200k on black, so why would you put 200k on a significantly worse investment? Oh yeah, cause you'll work hard and network. :lol:

Betting on black is for newbs anyway. Go red and odd

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romothesavior
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:38 pm

AreJay711 wrote:Betting on black is for newbs anyway. Go red and odd

+1.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:44 pm

Twenty, black, even, pass.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:45 pm

romothesavior wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:Betting on black is for newbs anyway. Go red and odd

+1.

middle row ftw.

BaronDetroit
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby BaronDetroit » Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:57 pm

You go to the T3/T4 to obtain that piece of paper. Once that graduation arises you launch yourself into the legal arena and bank from starting your own practice.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:02 pm

BaronDetroit wrote:You go to the T3/T4 to obtain that piece of paper. Once that graduation arises you launch yourself into the legal arena and bank from starting your own practice.


Yeah, and while you're at it.. just walk into a bank and ask for a 150k loan to start this practice. Go ahead, I'll wait.

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bjsesq
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby bjsesq » Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:03 pm

BaronDetroit wrote:Once that graduation arises you launch yourself into the legal arena and bank from starting your own practice.

Struggling to make sense of this.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:05 pm

bjsesq wrote:
BaronDetroit wrote:Once that graduation arises you launch yourself into the legal arena and bank from starting your own practice.

Struggling to make sense of this.


It makes perfect sense - law school, especially a T3/T4, teaches you everything you need to know about practicing law. It'd be stupid NOT to make your own practice.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:12 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
bjsesq wrote:
BaronDetroit wrote:Once that graduation arises you launch yourself into the legal arena and bank from starting your own practice.

Struggling to make sense of this.


It makes perfect sense - law school, especially a T3/T4, teaches you everything you need to know about practicing law. It'd be stupid NOT to make your own practice.

+1

Although honestly I think you should wait a couple of years before you argue any appellate litigation, and especially for the supreme court. I have a friend who went to Ave Maria and he took on a COA case 10 months out of law school at his solo practice. He said he definitely wasn't ready for it.

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romothesavior
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby romothesavior » Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:29 pm

delBarco wrote:Although honestly I think you should wait a couple of years before you argue any appellate litigation, and especially for the supreme court. I have a friend who went to Ave Maria and he took on a COA case 10 months out of law school at his solo practice. He said he definitely wasn't ready for it.

I doubt anyone would be. After a semester of law school, I know almost nothing about the law as attorneys practice it. I know how to take a law school exam, how to log-in to WL and LN and do a really basic search, and I know a handful of both obscure rules and very general rules. And I've never met an attorney who said, "Man, law school really prepared me well for what to do when I got into practice." Most will flat out tell you the opposite.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:16 pm

romothesavior wrote:
delBarco wrote:Although honestly I think you should wait a couple of years before you argue any appellate litigation, and especially for the supreme court. I have a friend who went to Ave Maria and he took on a COA case 10 months out of law school at his solo practice. He said he definitely wasn't ready for it.

I doubt anyone would be. After a semester of law school, I know almost nothing about the law as attorneys practice it. I know how to take a law school exam, how to log-in to WL and LN and do a really basic search, and I know a handful of both obscure rules and very general rules. And I've never met an attorney who said, "Man, law school really prepared me well for what to do when I got into practice." Most will flat out tell you the opposite.

There may or may not have been a lot of sarcasm in my post.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:20 pm

delBarco wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
delBarco wrote:Although honestly I think you should wait a couple of years before you argue any appellate litigation, and especially for the supreme court. I have a friend who went to Ave Maria and he took on a COA case 10 months out of law school at his solo practice. He said he definitely wasn't ready for it.

I doubt anyone would be. After a semester of law school, I know almost nothing about the law as attorneys practice it. I know how to take a law school exam, how to log-in to WL and LN and do a really basic search, and I know a handful of both obscure rules and very general rules. And I've never met an attorney who said, "Man, law school really prepared me well for what to do when I got into practice." Most will flat out tell you the opposite.

There may or may not have been a lot of sarcasm in my post.


i could see it, but it was on the edge there delBarco

i mean, there are some 0Ls here who might have read that and thought....man he's right, i totally should not take on a COA case till 12 months out from law school! lol

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:41 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
delBarco wrote:There may or may not have been a lot of sarcasm in my post.


i could see it, but it was on the edge there delBarco

i mean, there are some 0Ls here who might have read that and thought....man he's right, i totally should not take on a COA case till 12 months out from law school! lol

But from Romo, I expect so much more. I even gave Ave Maria a shout out just in case.

tlslsnlsp
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby tlslsnlsp » Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:57 pm

romothesavior wrote:
gens1tb wrote:So, a T3 education is like taking out a $100,000 loan then going to a casino and putting it all on black.


Actually, your odds of success are nearly 5-10 times higher putting all your money on black as they are getting a big firm job out of a T3/T4. And at some really terrible T3/T4 schools, your odds of winning by betting black are probably at least 2-3 times higher than your odds of getting any permanent legal job requiring a JD.

You wouldn't put 200k on black, so why would you put 200k on a significantly worse investment? Oh yeah, cause you'll work hard and network. :lol:


while you're probably right, the tricky thing is unlike the roulette ball being completely uninfluenced and thus truly random, everyone going to a lower-tiered school thinks that they can achieve that top 5% status by working hard. sort of like sitting at a poker table with a bunch of players who are flat-out better than you. actually on second thought that one doesn't really work either. bottom line is if it was just purely chance like roulette i'm sure a bunch of these lower-tiered guys would have thought twice and decided not to do it; the problem is it doesn't seem completely random, because damn it if i study hard enough i got to be able to make top 5% right? i mean 5% of our class will make it!!!

tlslsnlsp
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby tlslsnlsp » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:28 pm

Nightrunner wrote:Actually, I think the poker analogy is a good one, or at least from my limited understanding. You're sitting at a table with some people who are just as good at poker as you are. They will work just as hard. The only means to the top is some great little moves with tiny details, the little things someone else overlooks. And, in the end, you're going to need a few cards to just break your way, no matter how good you are.

The difference is that top schools are the WSOP, where you can finish third and still take home a decent payout. Most bottom schools are like playing in a casino: one person walks away with all the chips, and everyone else just cries regretfully into a mediocre buffet.

I'd look for a table where someone else pays for your buy-in.


ah, beautifully done. i was thinking poker just purely from a chance-based vs. chance+skill aspect but you took it farther and better.

firemed
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby firemed » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:17 pm

Nightrunner wrote:Actually, I think the poker analogy is a good one, or at least from my limited understanding. You're sitting at a table with some people who are just as good at poker as you are. They will work just as hard. The only means to the top is some great little moves with tiny details, the little things someone else overlooks. And, in the end, you're going to need a few cards to just break your way, no matter how good you are.

The difference is that top schools are the WSOP, where you can finish third and still take home a decent payout. Most bottom schools are like playing in a casino: one person walks away with all the chips, and everyone else just cries regretfully into a mediocre buffet.

I'd look for a table where someone else pays for your buy-in.



+1

Go for the tourney with the most money positions and the lowest buy in.

BaronDetroit
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby BaronDetroit » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:25 pm

I understand the realities of not getting adequate employment to ensure repayment of loans and a lifestyle fit for a lawyer. However, a lawyer is a member of the elitist club. If a lawyer can't harness his intelligent organ of thought and feeling to good use- then that does not bode well for the common folk who attend education institutions to better themselves. In short, all diploma's would be irrelevent and all graduates could become claimants and launch numerous bad faith lawsuits.

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Patriot1208
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby Patriot1208 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:28 pm

BaronDetroit wrote:I understand the realities of not getting adequate employment to ensure repayment of loans and a lifestyle fit for a lawyer. However, a lawyer is a member of the elitist club. If a lawyer can't harness his intelligent organ of thought and feeling to good use- then that does not bode well for the common folk who attend education institutions to better themselves. In short, all diploma's would be irrelevent and all graduates could become claimants and launch numerous bad faith lawsuits.


wut?

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Helmholtz
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby Helmholtz » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:29 pm

BaronDetroit wrote: However, a lawyer is a member of the elitist club.


No, it's not. At some point, maybe. The fact that some person can get a sub-150 LSAT, have a UG GPA under 3.0, and graduate among the hundreds of unfortunates that Cooley and their ilk send out in the workforce pretty much guarantees the profession as a whole has lost pretty much all elite standing, at least in my eyes (and all the eyes of others who realize just how easy it is to become a lawyer nowadays).

ptblazer
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby ptblazer » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:29 pm

Helmholtz wrote:3. " Its fair to say that lawyers in these jobs could certainly pay off their debt in a reasonable amount of time." Do you know just how little small law firms pay? Can you imagine trying to pay off $170k in loans from some place like Marquette Law while only making $40k/yr? It has to be living hell.

In general, a Tier 3 or 4 law school might make sense for a very small majority (e.g. people with huge scholarships or something definite lined up for post-grad), but for most, it's an awful idea.


I know nothing about the house you were raised in, but to compare 40k salary with 170k debt to a living hell is just plain ignorant of what a living hell really is.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby Helmholtz » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:31 pm

ptblazer wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:3. " Its fair to say that lawyers in these jobs could certainly pay off their debt in a reasonable amount of time." Do you know just how little small law firms pay? Can you imagine trying to pay off $170k in loans from some place like Marquette Law while only making $40k/yr? It has to be living hell.

In general, a Tier 3 or 4 law school might make sense for a very small majority (e.g. people with huge scholarships or something definite lined up for post-grad), but for most, it's an awful idea.


I know nothing about the house you were raised in, but to compare 40k salary with 170k debt to a living hell is just plain ignorant of what a living hell really is.


Thanks for the insight, chief.

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Patriot1208
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby Patriot1208 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:33 pm

ptblazer wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:3. " Its fair to say that lawyers in these jobs could certainly pay off their debt in a reasonable amount of time." Do you know just how little small law firms pay? Can you imagine trying to pay off $170k in loans from some place like Marquette Law while only making $40k/yr? It has to be living hell.

In general, a Tier 3 or 4 law school might make sense for a very small majority (e.g. people with huge scholarships or something definite lined up for post-grad), but for most, it's an awful idea.


I know nothing about the house you were raised in, but to compare 40k salary with 170k debt to a living hell is just plain ignorant of what a living hell really is.


Considering "a living hell" is a manner of expression, I think we are all ignorant on what "a living hell" really is.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:34 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
BaronDetroit wrote: However, a lawyer is a member of the elitist club.


No, it's not. At some point, maybe. The fact that some person can get a sub-150 LSAT, have a UG GPA under 3.0, and graduate among the hundreds of unfortunates that Cooley and their ilk send out in the workforce pretty much guarantees the profession as a whole has lost pretty much all elite standing, at least in my eyes (and all the eyes of others who realize just how easy it is to become a lawyer nowadays).


+1

In my head, the elitist club consists of not the profession - but where the person works. For instance - and I haven't articulated this yet but as an example: those who are employed in firms among the Vault 100.




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