Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

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Grizz
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby Grizz » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:28 am

ResolutePear wrote:It amuses me that people come to these boards to justify their 2.5GPA + 145 LSAT, knowing full and well they do not have a shot in the dark of anything above Coastal, Cooley, or Ave Maria.


They're gonna be good lawyers bc they love to argue bro.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:32 am

rad law wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:It amuses me that people come to these boards to justify their 2.5GPA + 145 LSAT, knowing full and well they do not have a shot in the dark of anything above Coastal, Cooley, or Ave Maria.


They're gonna be good lawyers bc they love to argue bro.


They better look at my music video then.

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romothesavior
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:01 am

jaestro wrote:Incoherent rambling

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, and just remember that if it weren't for the "pessimists", you'd probably have no idea WTF was up with law school or legal market.

And +1 to doublechecks. There are very few people who are T14 or bust, so called "elitists" on TLS. But when people want to see what they want to see, they'll convince themselves of anything.

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ahduth
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby ahduth » Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:06 am

I didn't read this entire thread, or any of it really. I do have a question to ask in here however.

Is anyone going to law school in order to be a manager of legal outsourcing? Beyond T3 schools, there's a lot of countries who speak English.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:43 am

romothesavior wrote:
jaestro wrote:Incoherent rambling

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, and just remember that if it weren't for the "pessimists", you'd probably have no idea WTF was up with law school or legal market.

And +1 to doublechecks. There are very few people who are T14 or bust, so called "elitists" on TLS. But when people want to see what they want to see, they'll convince themselves of anything.

I think the problem people fail to understand is that the legal community itself is elitist. It's certainly not the students that make it this way; if I had my choice of what to do, I'd go to the cheapest law school in the country and use good grades and prior work experience to get me a job. But it doesn't work that way at all. In good times there were enough jobs that a number of T3/T4 students (though not all) could still find some kind of work, but we're not in good times now. We're coming off a recession that spawned over 20,000 legal layoffs in two years, while law schools kept graduating students at a total rate of 40,000 per year. Simple math says there aren't enough jobs to go around, and while there's always some hiring going on to overcome movement and attrition, it's not nearly enough to soak up all or even most of the current grads each year.

Given that, you have to look in advance at how those that are hiring do hire. Almost universally, degree prestige plays a role. Even places that traditionally hired T3/T4 students would often rather fill their ranks with students from top schools; they didn't before because those students weren't interested in those kind of jobs then. Grads from top schools are interested now, because shit jobs are better than no jobs. So they get those jobs right now, even though the T3/T4 grads used to. Treating those kind of jobs as though they're reserved for grads from the bottom schools is naive, because like anywhere else in the world, the employers would take better if they could get better. And thanks to the economic climate, now they can.

That's the thing people often don't get. We're not elitists, we're repeating what legal employees themselves do. Most legal employers consider grads from higher-tier schools to be "better" than grads from lower-tier schools when hiring. It's not the only factor, and someone with top grades from a T3 still might beat out a T1 or T2 grad with mediocre grades, but let's face it, most T3 grads don't have top grades at their school either. If only the top 30% or 20% or 10% is getting hired, that means going in you have a 70% or 80% or 90% chance of being unemployed.

Going, "oh, TLS is elitist" doesn't make this problem go away. It doesn't change how legal hiring is done or the fact that every employer will judge you based on where you got your JD, and that in a depressed hiring market you're competing with so many grads from better schools that you're practically unemployable. Unless you have personal connections to an employer or you're in a market so obscure that nobody from better schools would even think to seek work there, you're screwed right now, and that's true whether a bunch of people on the Internet are "elitists" or not.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:46 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
jaestro wrote:Incoherent rambling

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, and just remember that if it weren't for the "pessimists", you'd probably have no idea WTF was up with law school or legal market.

And +1 to doublechecks. There are very few people who are T14 or bust, so called "elitists" on TLS. But when people want to see what they want to see, they'll convince themselves of anything.

I think the problem people fail to understand is that the legal community itself is elitist. It's certainly not the students that make it this way; if I had my choice of what to do, I'd go to the cheapest law school in the country and use good grades and prior work experience to get me a job. But it doesn't work that way at all. In good times there were enough jobs that a number of T3/T4 students (though not all) could still find some kind of work, but we're not in good times now. We're coming off a recession that spawned over 20,000 legal layoffs in two years, while law schools kept graduating students at a total rate of 40,000 per year. Simple math says there aren't enough jobs to go around, and while there's always some hiring going on to overcome movement and attrition, it's not nearly enough to soak up all or even most of the current grads each year.

Given that, you have to look in advance at how those that are hiring do hire. Almost universally, degree prestige plays a role. Even places that traditionally hired T3/T4 students would often rather fill their ranks with students from top schools; they didn't before because those students weren't interested in those kind of jobs then. Grads from top schools are interested now, because shit jobs are better than no jobs. So they get those jobs right now, even though the T3/T4 grads used to. Treating those kind of jobs as though they're reserved for grads from the bottom schools is naive, because like anywhere else in the world, the employers would take better if they could get better. And thanks to the economic climate, now they can.

That's the thing people often don't get. We're not elitists, we're repeating what legal employees themselves do. Most legal employers consider grads from higher-tier schools to be "better" than grads from lower-tier schools when hiring. It's not the only factor, and someone with top grades from a T3 still might beat out a T1 or T2 grad with mediocre grades, but let's face it, most T3 grads don't have top grades at their school either. If only the top 30% or 20% or 10% is getting hired, that means going in you have a 70% or 80% or 90% chance of being unemployed.

Going, "oh, TLS is elitist" doesn't make this problem go away. It doesn't change how legal hiring is done or the fact that every employer will judge you based on where you got your JD, and that in a depressed hiring market you're competing with so many grads from better schools that you're practically unemployable. Unless you have personal connections to an employer or you're in a market so obscure that nobody from better schools would even think to seek work there, you're screwed right now, and that's true whether a bunch of people on the Internet are "elitists" or not.


I know this one guy...

No, actually I don't. This is as true as it'll ever be.

BaronDetroit
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby BaronDetroit » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:00 pm

The key is to find a niche. IE Find the little guy who needs money to be made whole and lead them to where they want to go by launching these claims onto the dockets.

People get soo confused about the legal marketplace when its soo simplistic in terms of finding claimants who want money and having 20 dollar per hour legal clerks do the heavy lifting.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:01 pm

BaronDetroit wrote:The key is to find a niche. IE Find the little guy who needs money to be made whole and lead them to where they want to go by launching these claims onto the dockets.

People get soo confused about the legal marketplace when its soo simplistic in terms of finding claimants who want money and having 20 dollar per hour legal clerks do the heavy lifting.


Just stop talking.

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bjsesq
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby bjsesq » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:11 pm

BaronDetroit wrote:The key is to find a niche. IE Find the little guy who needs money to be made whole and lead them to where they want to go by launching these claims onto the dockets.

People get soo confused about the legal marketplace when its soo simplistic in terms of finding claimants who want money and having 20 dollar per hour legal clerks do the heavy lifting.

The trolling was effective at first. You posted in a way that made me think you were serious. It has become clear now that you are trolling because you kept trying to push. Thanks for the distraction, it was great while it lasted.

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Jack Smirks
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby Jack Smirks » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:14 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
jaestro wrote:Incoherent rambling

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, and just remember that if it weren't for the "pessimists", you'd probably have no idea WTF was up with law school or legal market.

And +1 to doublechecks. There are very few people who are T14 or bust, so called "elitists" on TLS. But when people want to see what they want to see, they'll convince themselves of anything.

I think the problem people fail to understand is that the legal community itself is elitist. It's certainly not the students that make it this way; if I had my choice of what to do, I'd go to the cheapest law school in the country and use good grades and prior work experience to get me a job. But it doesn't work that way at all. In good times there were enough jobs that a number of T3/T4 students (though not all) could still find some kind of work, but we're not in good times now. We're coming off a recession that spawned over 20,000 legal layoffs in two years, while law schools kept graduating students at a total rate of 40,000 per year. Simple math says there aren't enough jobs to go around, and while there's always some hiring going on to overcome movement and attrition, it's not nearly enough to soak up all or even most of the current grads each year.

Given that, you have to look in advance at how those that are hiring do hire. Almost universally, degree prestige plays a role. Even places that traditionally hired T3/T4 students would often rather fill their ranks with students from top schools; they didn't before because those students weren't interested in those kind of jobs then. Grads from top schools are interested now, because shit jobs are better than no jobs. So they get those jobs right now, even though the T3/T4 grads used to. Treating those kind of jobs as though they're reserved for grads from the bottom schools is naive, because like anywhere else in the world, the employers would take better if they could get better. And thanks to the economic climate, now they can.

That's the thing people often don't get. We're not elitists, we're repeating what legal employees themselves do. Most legal employers consider grads from higher-tier schools to be "better" than grads from lower-tier schools when hiring. It's not the only factor, and someone with top grades from a T3 still might beat out a T1 or T2 grad with mediocre grades, but let's face it, most T3 grads don't have top grades at their school either. If only the top 30% or 20% or 10% is getting hired, that means going in you have a 70% or 80% or 90% chance of being unemployed.

Going, "oh, TLS is elitist" doesn't make this problem go away. It doesn't change how legal hiring is done or the fact that every employer will judge you based on where you got your JD, and that in a depressed hiring market you're competing with so many grads from better schools that you're practically unemployable. Unless you have personal connections to an employer or you're in a market so obscure that nobody from better schools would even think to seek work there, you're screwed right now, and that's true whether a bunch of people on the Internet are "elitists" or not.

+1. This is all that really needs to be said about the situation.

Skyhook
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby Skyhook » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:14 pm

Elitism - that is how the world works! Damn straight I want a surgeon who went to a good school, the best school, is world renowned, etc!

I have argued in the past that T3/4 may be right for some people due to family commitments or similar. Local markets are a factor too, as Barbie pointed out for Tampa. T3/4 can only be looked at in context, and really only be considered if $$$ makes it make sense.

Alas, I hear of students thinking they can go to T3/4 and get that great job doing x where they'll earn $$$$$$ a year... They can't even get an A grade in my basic chemistry class, can't imagine what LSAT score they'll get. Wrong.
And I also hear "I only need a 3.0 GPA to get into..." Wrong again.
Misinformed, don't even know they are misinformed. :roll:

I like the consensus on TLS that aiming for the top is the way forward. It has to be!
Truth is that the lower you go the worse off you are likely to be.
For anyone new to the T3/4 debate think about what qualities actually make the T14 the T14? Do T3 come anywhere close to giving you as good experiences, education or opportunities?

A neighbour asked me what difference it made whether I went to this or that law school?
To not get into a long-winded discussion with him, I replied: Job opportunities - I want to clerk for the highest judicial circuit I can, and you need to go to schools well up in the rankings to reach the top.
He got my point.

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northwood
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby northwood » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:19 pm

the more I think about the prospects after law school, the more I wish i spent my time applying for a phd in human cognitive development.

starting to fully re consider this entire thing, and think its time for a re take, re evaluate, and re focus my soul searching. better to be doing this now, than one year from now.

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mpj_3050
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby mpj_3050 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:24 pm

northwood wrote:the more I think about the prospects after law school, the more I wish i spent my time applying for a phd in human cognitive development.

starting to fully re consider this entire thing, and think its time for a re take, re evaluate, and re focus my soul searching. better to be doing this now, than one year from now.


You aren't the only one, going to have some thinking to do.

BaronDetroit
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby BaronDetroit » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:31 pm

I'm not trolling. Trying to be entertaining- yes. Trolling- no.

T3/T4 graduates are entitled to be in this elitist profession- this is my main point. Its not a dead end for them. Certainly, common sense tells us that T1 graduates with high grades and impeccable resumes have an advantage to some extent.

I guess the thrust of my argument arises out of job opportunities. The abudant and plentiful employment opportunities are no longer realistic. The long term solution is finding the claimaint who feels somehow cheated and launch lawsuits on their behalf. Eventually, the legal profession will become an enlargement of what it currently is. You grow from the bottom up not the top down.

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Jack Smirks
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby Jack Smirks » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:36 pm

BaronDetroit wrote:I'm not trolling. Trying to be entertaining- yes. Trolling- no.

T3/T4 graduates are entitled to be in this elitist profession- this is my main point. Its not a dead end for them. Certainly, common sense tells us that T1 graduates with high grades and impeccable resumes have an advantage to some extent.

I guess the thrust of my argument arises out of job opportunities. The abudant and plentiful employment opportunities are no longer realistic. The long term solution is finding the claimaint who feels somehow cheated and launch lawsuits on their behalf. Eventually, the legal profession will become an enlargement of what it currently is. You grow from the bottom up not the top down.

Image

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romothesavior
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:38 pm

BaronDetroit wrote:I'm not trolling. Trying to be entertaining- yes. Trolling- no.

T3/T4 graduates are entitled to be in this elitist profession- this is my main point. Its not a dead end for them. Certainly, common sense tells us that T1 graduates with high grades and impeccable resumes have an advantage to some extent.

I guess the thrust of my argument arises out of job opportunities. The abudant and plentiful employment opportunities are no longer realistic. The long term solution is finding the claimaint who feels somehow cheated and launch lawsuits on their behalf. Eventually, the legal profession will become an enlargement of what it currently is. You grow from the bottom up not the top down.

Guess how many lawyers are out there trying to do exactly what you're advocating, and can barely break even doing it?

Seriously, cut it out. No one is listening to you and you are dead wrong.

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romothesavior
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:39 pm

And great post VW. Very well said. I have gotten so fed up with the "elitist" comments lately, so I'll just direct people to your post when I see them from now on.

omg
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby omg » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:42 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
jaestro wrote:Incoherent rambling

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, and just remember that if it weren't for the "pessimists", you'd probably have no idea WTF was up with law school or legal market.

And +1 to doublechecks. There are very few people who are T14 or bust, so called "elitists" on TLS. But when people want to see what they want to see, they'll convince themselves of anything.

I think the problem people fail to understand is that the legal community itself is elitist. It's certainly not the students that make it this way; if I had my choice of what to do, I'd go to the cheapest law school in the country and use good grades and prior work experience to get me a job. But it doesn't work that way at all. In good times there were enough jobs that a number of T3/T4 students (though not all) could still find some kind of work, but we're not in good times now. We're coming off a recession that spawned over 20,000 legal layoffs in two years, while law schools kept graduating students at a total rate of 40,000 per year. Simple math says there aren't enough jobs to go around, and while there's always some hiring going on to overcome movement and attrition, it's not nearly enough to soak up all or even most of the current grads each year.

Given that, you have to look in advance at how those that are hiring do hire. Almost universally, degree prestige plays a role. Even places that traditionally hired T3/T4 students would often rather fill their ranks with students from top schools; they didn't before because those students weren't interested in those kind of jobs then. Grads from top schools are interested now, because shit jobs are better than no jobs. So they get those jobs right now, even though the T3/T4 grads used to. Treating those kind of jobs as though they're reserved for grads from the bottom schools is naive, because like anywhere else in the world, the employers would take better if they could get better. And thanks to the economic climate, now they can.

That's the thing people often don't get. We're not elitists, we're repeating what legal employees themselves do. Most legal employers consider grads from higher-tier schools to be "better" than grads from lower-tier schools when hiring. It's not the only factor, and someone with top grades from a T3 still might beat out a T1 or T2 grad with mediocre grades, but let's face it, most T3 grads don't have top grades at their school either. If only the top 30% or 20% or 10% is getting hired, that means going in you have a 70% or 80% or 90% chance of being unemployed.

Going, "oh, TLS is elitist" doesn't make this problem go away. It doesn't change how legal hiring is done or the fact that every employer will judge you based on where you got your JD, and that in a depressed hiring market you're competing with so many grads from better schools that you're practically unemployable. Unless you have personal connections to an employer or you're in a market so obscure that nobody from better schools would even think to seek work there, you're screwed right now, and that's true whether a bunch of people on the Internet are "elitists" or not.


As I'm sure vanwinkle will admit, this is not unequivocally true everywhere. It's especially wide of the mark, I think, for the local employment markets for graduates from solid regional schools--even for cities that are not so in the middle of nowhere that no T14 students will apply there.

Case in point: I worked at a medium-sized Richmond law firm last summer that has always hired the majority of its attorneys from Richmond and W&L and a little from William & Mary. Since the economy crashed, the firm gets dozens of applications from T6 schools every year, but it's not interested in those students just because they're supposedly "better," as vanwinkle would have it. It's not going to change its hiring model or turn its back on long-built loyalties for a bunch of T6 students for whom Richmond is probably an 8th, 9th, or 10th choice market. This is true even where the T6 students have higher class ranks than the local students.

PS: Looking back at the title of this thread, I am certainly not claiming that Richmond, W&M, or W&L are T3 schools. Simply that "T14 or bust" is not always as necessary of a mentality as vanwinkle suggests, even ITE.

TL; DR: If you know you would be comfortable practicing in a certain region, you may be safer going to a solid regional school with longstanding ties to firms there than some on TLS would have you believe.

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romothesavior
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby romothesavior » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:47 pm

omg wrote:Case in point: I worked at a medium-sized Richmond law firm last summer that has always hired the majority of its attorneys from Richmond and W&L and a little from William & Mary. Since the economy crashed, the firm gets dozens of applications from T6 schools every year, but it's not interested in those students just because they're supposedly "better," as vanwinkle would have it. It's not going to change its hiring model or turn its back on long-built loyalties for a bunch of T6 students for whom Richmond is probably an 8th, 9th, or 10th choice market. This is true even where the T6 students have higher class ranks than the local students.

Maybe true, but you have to consider Richmond's class size vs. the size of the legal market. There are nowhere near enough jobs for that market to absorb even a significant minority of the students there. Hell, I was just reading the other day in the "Richmond Student Taking Qs" thread a post by a Richmond student/grad advising students to go to a better school.

This isn't to say that T3s are always a bad choice. Taking out little debt for a T3 in a market you have ties to and have an interest in staying in can be a decent decision. But you'd better be real aware of how hard things will be for you, and realize right away that the oddsmakers say that you'll be facing low pay or unemployment after three years.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:50 pm

omg wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
jaestro wrote:Incoherent rambling

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, and just remember that if it weren't for the "pessimists", you'd probably have no idea WTF was up with law school or legal market.

And +1 to doublechecks. There are very few people who are T14 or bust, so called "elitists" on TLS. But when people want to see what they want to see, they'll convince themselves of anything.

I think the problem people fail to understand is that the legal community itself is elitist. It's certainly not the students that make it this way; if I had my choice of what to do, I'd go to the cheapest law school in the country and use good grades and prior work experience to get me a job. But it doesn't work that way at all. In good times there were enough jobs that a number of T3/T4 students (though not all) could still find some kind of work, but we're not in good times now. We're coming off a recession that spawned over 20,000 legal layoffs in two years, while law schools kept graduating students at a total rate of 40,000 per year. Simple math says there aren't enough jobs to go around, and while there's always some hiring going on to overcome movement and attrition, it's not nearly enough to soak up all or even most of the current grads each year.

Given that, you have to look in advance at how those that are hiring do hire. Almost universally, degree prestige plays a role. Even places that traditionally hired T3/T4 students would often rather fill their ranks with students from top schools; they didn't before because those students weren't interested in those kind of jobs then. Grads from top schools are interested now, because shit jobs are better than no jobs. So they get those jobs right now, even though the T3/T4 grads used to. Treating those kind of jobs as though they're reserved for grads from the bottom schools is naive, because like anywhere else in the world, the employers would take better if they could get better. And thanks to the economic climate, now they can.

That's the thing people often don't get. We're not elitists, we're repeating what legal employees themselves do. Most legal employers consider grads from higher-tier schools to be "better" than grads from lower-tier schools when hiring. It's not the only factor, and someone with top grades from a T3 still might beat out a T1 or T2 grad with mediocre grades, but let's face it, most T3 grads don't have top grades at their school either. If only the top 30% or 20% or 10% is getting hired, that means going in you have a 70% or 80% or 90% chance of being unemployed.

Going, "oh, TLS is elitist" doesn't make this problem go away. It doesn't change how legal hiring is done or the fact that every employer will judge you based on where you got your JD, and that in a depressed hiring market you're competing with so many grads from better schools that you're practically unemployable. Unless you have personal connections to an employer or you're in a market so obscure that nobody from better schools would even think to seek work there, you're screwed right now, and that's true whether a bunch of people on the Internet are "elitists" or not.


As I'm sure vanwinkle will admit, this is not unequivocally true everywhere. It's especially wide of the mark, I think, for the local employment markets for graduates from solid regional schools--even for cities that are not so in the middle of nowhere that no T14 students will apply there.

Case in point: I worked at a medium-sized Richmond law firm last summer that has always hired the majority of its attorneys from Richmond and W&L and a little from William & Mary. Since the economy crashed, the firm gets dozens of applications from T6 schools every year, but it's not interested in those students just because they're supposedly "better," as vanwinkle would have it. It's not going to change its hiring model or turn its back on long-built loyalties for a bunch of T6 students for whom Richmond is probably an 8th, 9th, or 10th choice market. This is true even where the T6 students have higher class ranks than the local students.

PS: Looking back at the title of this thread, I am certainly not claiming that Richmond, W&M, or W&L are T3 schools. Simply that "T14 or bust" is not always as necessary of a mentality as vanwinkle suggests, even ITE.

TL; DR: If you know you would be comfortable practicing in a certain region, you may be safer going to a solid regional school with longstanding ties to firms there than some on TLS would have you believe.


We'll cycle it; point first to VW post, and then if there is a response like omg's, refer to my earlier post. Specific questions will get specific answers. When we're talking in generalities, the comments will only be what is true in general. I just don't get why when people speak "in general," a person will run in with a specific example that counters it lol. Of course there are situations where some person could go to his T3/T4 and it would make perfect sense. Or where there is a certain mindset, like in TX where UT is sometimes propelled higher than its rank (though top schools still get first bite it seems), etc. Bahh just refer to my post at the bottom of pg. 6 lol. I get tired of repeatedly typing the same thing in different threads.
Last edited by DoubleChecks on Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

omg
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby omg » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:51 pm

romothesavior wrote:
omg wrote:Case in point: I worked at a medium-sized Richmond law firm last summer that has always hired the majority of its attorneys from Richmond and W&L and a little from William & Mary. Since the economy crashed, the firm gets dozens of applications from T6 schools every year, but it's not interested in those students just because they're supposedly "better," as vanwinkle would have it. It's not going to change its hiring model or turn its back on long-built loyalties for a bunch of T6 students for whom Richmond is probably an 8th, 9th, or 10th choice market. This is true even where the T6 students have higher class ranks than the local students.

Maybe true, but you have to consider Richmond's class size vs. the size of the legal market. There are nowhere near enough jobs for that market to absorb even a significant minority of the students there. Hell, I was just reading the other day in the "Richmond Student Taking Qs" thread a post by a Richmond student/grad advising students to go to a better school.

This isn't to say that T3s are always a bad choice. Taking out little debt for a T3 in a market you have ties to and have an interest in staying in can be a decent decision. But you'd better be real aware of how hard things will be for you, and realize right away that the oddsmakers say that you'll be facing low pay or unemployment after three years.


That is true. I'm just trying to point that it's absolutely not the case that all employers would rather hire T14 students if they can get them than graduates from local, lower-ranked schools, which is what vanwinkle's post was basically saying. I am sure that many, many firms out there have a similar mindset to mine.

omg
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby omg » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:53 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
We'll cycle it; point first to VW post, and then if there is a response like omg's, refer to my earlier post. Specific questions will get specific answers. When we're talking in generalities, the comments will only be what is true in general. I just don't get why when people speak "in general," a person will run in with a specific example that counters it lol. Of course there are situations where some person could go to his T3/T4 and it would make perfect sense. Bahh just refer to my post at the bottom of pg. 6 lol. I get tired of repeatedly typing the same thing in different threads.


Sorry to waste your precious time, but I wasn't replying to you, I was replying to vanwinkle, who was not speaking only in generalities. He said that, unless it's a market that's so obscure that T14 students would never apply there, employers are essentially always going to want "better" students over "worse" ones. This just isn't the case for many, many regional firms out there, mine being just one example.

Fark-o-vision
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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby Fark-o-vision » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:54 pm

omg wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
jaestro wrote:Incoherent rambling

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, and just remember that if it weren't for the "pessimists", you'd probably have no idea WTF was up with law school or legal market.

And +1 to doublechecks. There are very few people who are T14 or bust, so called "elitists" on TLS. But when people want to see what they want to see, they'll convince themselves of anything.

I think the problem people fail to understand is that the legal community itself is elitist. It's certainly not the students that make it this way; if I had my choice of what to do, I'd go to the cheapest law school in the country and use good grades and prior work experience to get me a job. But it doesn't work that way at all. In good times there were enough jobs that a number of T3/T4 students (though not all) could still find some kind of work, but we're not in good times now. We're coming off a recession that spawned over 20,000 legal layoffs in two years, while law schools kept graduating students at a total rate of 40,000 per year. Simple math says there aren't enough jobs to go around, and while there's always some hiring going on to overcome movement and attrition, it's not nearly enough to soak up all or even most of the current grads each year.

Given that, you have to look in advance at how those that are hiring do hire. Almost universally, degree prestige plays a role. Even places that traditionally hired T3/T4 students would often rather fill their ranks with students from top schools; they didn't before because those students weren't interested in those kind of jobs then. Grads from top schools are interested now, because shit jobs are better than no jobs. So they get those jobs right now, even though the T3/T4 grads used to. Treating those kind of jobs as though they're reserved for grads from the bottom schools is naive, because like anywhere else in the world, the employers would take better if they could get better. And thanks to the economic climate, now they can.

That's the thing people often don't get. We're not elitists, we're repeating what legal employees themselves do. Most legal employers consider grads from higher-tier schools to be "better" than grads from lower-tier schools when hiring. It's not the only factor, and someone with top grades from a T3 still might beat out a T1 or T2 grad with mediocre grades, but let's face it, most T3 grads don't have top grades at their school either. If only the top 30% or 20% or 10% is getting hired, that means going in you have a 70% or 80% or 90% chance of being unemployed.

Going, "oh, TLS is elitist" doesn't make this problem go away. It doesn't change how legal hiring is done or the fact that every employer will judge you based on where you got your JD, and that in a depressed hiring market you're competing with so many grads from better schools that you're practically unemployable. Unless you have personal connections to an employer or you're in a market so obscure that nobody from better schools would even think to seek work there, you're screwed right now, and that's true whether a bunch of people on the Internet are "elitists" or not.


As I'm sure vanwinkle will admit, this is not unequivocally true everywhere. It's especially wide of the mark, I think, for the local employment markets for graduates from solid regional schools--even for cities that are not so in the middle of nowhere that no T14 students will apply there.

Case in point: I worked at a medium-sized Richmond law firm last summer that has always hired the majority of its attorneys from Richmond and W&L and a little from William & Mary. Since the economy crashed, the firm gets dozens of applications from T6 schools every year, but it's not interested in those students just because they're supposedly "better," as vanwinkle would have it. It's not going to change its hiring model or turn its back on long-built loyalties for a bunch of T6 students for whom Richmond is probably an 8th, 9th, or 10th choice market. This is true even where the T6 students have higher class ranks than the local students.

PS: Looking back at the title of this thread, I am certainly not claiming that Richmond, W&M, or W&L are T3 schools. Simply that "T14 or bust" is not always as necessary of a mentality as vanwinkle suggests, even ITE.

TL; DR: If you know you would be comfortable practicing in a certain region, you may be safer going to a solid regional school with longstanding ties to firms there than some on TLS would have you believe.


I think this is one of two well documented exceptions. local power does play a part. A partner at a small to medium sized firm in Louisville who graduated from Indiana Bloomington (tier 1, but regional and a little weak, it seems) doesn't want a Harvard grad. Wouldn't take a Harvard grad, probably. Also, it seems like the prestige factor has changed a bit. People would rather introduce a new associate and say, "he graduated first in his class" rather than "he went to Duke." This stratification is obviously nuanced and develops in accordance with regional prestige, but it is there.

Still, the vast majority of it does come down to exactly what Van Winkle said. Once you lose that "top of his class at Syracuse", why wouldn't they take any Cornell grad?

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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:57 pm

omg wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
omg wrote:Case in point: I worked at a medium-sized Richmond law firm last summer that has always hired the majority of its attorneys from Richmond and W&L and a little from William & Mary. Since the economy crashed, the firm gets dozens of applications from T6 schools every year, but it's not interested in those students just because they're supposedly "better," as vanwinkle would have it. It's not going to change its hiring model or turn its back on long-built loyalties for a bunch of T6 students for whom Richmond is probably an 8th, 9th, or 10th choice market. This is true even where the T6 students have higher class ranks than the local students.

Maybe true, but you have to consider Richmond's class size vs. the size of the legal market. There are nowhere near enough jobs for that market to absorb even a significant minority of the students there. Hell, I was just reading the other day in the "Richmond Student Taking Qs" thread a post by a Richmond student/grad advising students to go to a better school.

This isn't to say that T3s are always a bad choice. Taking out little debt for a T3 in a market you have ties to and have an interest in staying in can be a decent decision. But you'd better be real aware of how hard things will be for you, and realize right away that the oddsmakers say that you'll be facing low pay or unemployment after three years.


That is true. I'm just trying to point that it's absolutely not the case that all employers would rather hire T14 students if they can get them than graduates from local, lower-ranked schools, which is what vanwinkle's post was basically saying. I am sure that many, many firms out there have a similar mindset to mine.


His post is meant to be very generalized, as is the TLS mantra.

Sure not *all* would hire T14, but those graduating TTT with 120-150k in student loans pretty much needs something good to avoid eating ramen for the next 5 years. This is sadly not the case - as most of these firms go off the school and class rankings. Does it mean 1.. 2.. 10? 30? 100? You can't really attribute fortune as a logical factor in the decision to go to a TTT... and that's really what we're all saying.

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Re: Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end.

Postby AreJay711 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:57 pm

omg wrote:
TL; DR: If you know you would be comfortable practicing in a certain region, you may be safer going to a solid regional school with longstanding ties to firms there than some on TLS would have you believe.


I was told by a managing partner at a medium sized Baltimore firm straight up that they wouldn't hire me out of Michigan and that they only hire people from U Balt, UMD, and, occasionally, Harvard. While that is all well and good, it doesn't mean that people from UB and UMD have great job prospects but rather that they have better job prospects in one particular market at one particular firm. Of course, graduating with no debt might make a tier 2 or 3 school a better choice but it s pretty hard to imagine when it would be worth it at sticker.




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