Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

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SMA22
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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby SMA22 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:17 am

As a legal recruiter in Chicago, I want you to consider that just like bad debt, the reputation of your school will follow you for years to come. John Marshall graduates are not bad people, but the school does have a rotten reputation on the market (aside from Cooley, it is the lowest ranking school to feed into the saturated Chicago market.) Graduates are very hard to place. I can tell you that most of the Class of 2009/2010 is still unemployed.

It's your decision and I wish you the best, but as someone knows the Chicago market well, do think past just the up front dollar amount and consider the long term costs of attending John Marshall as well.

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masochist
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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby masochist » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:22 am

JM is rumored to section stack. If they won't tell you exactly what percentage of scholarships are renewed for three years, run.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby Kilpatrick » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:30 am

stugots26 wrote:It's not about the school's feelings. It's about their offer as it stands. They didn't have to offer the OP ANYTHING. They did. And they expect him to work to keep it. If he tries to bargain, they can pull it. It's their offer, not a contract dispute. The statement about the school's audacity and employment statistics may be true. But it doesn't affect the inherent fact that this is the SCHOOL'S OFFER TO MAKE AS IT STANDS or LEAVE IT.

Why would any school allow a student to coast and still give him a full ride? I wager that the bigger risk is attempting to bargain and having the school decide to pull it.


The logic here is mind boggling. The school didn't HAVE to offer him anything but they did because they're trying to sucker him into going there! The school is not going to "pull" their offer if he tries to negotiate. And they don't expect him to work for it. They expect that he'll probably lose it after the first year and they'll suck a couple hundred thousand dollars out of him. "Working hard" is not enough to do well in law school. Taking a scholarship at a school like this with that stipulation is a huge risk.

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beachbum
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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby beachbum » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:31 am

Kilpatrick wrote:
stugots26 wrote:It's not about the school's feelings. It's about their offer as it stands. They didn't have to offer the OP ANYTHING. They did. And they expect him to work to keep it. If he tries to bargain, they can pull it. It's their offer, not a contract dispute. The statement about the school's audacity and employment statistics may be true. But it doesn't affect the inherent fact that this is the SCHOOL'S OFFER TO MAKE AS IT STANDS or LEAVE IT.

Why would any school allow a student to coast and still give him a full ride? I wager that the bigger risk is attempting to bargain and having the school decide to pull it.


The logic here is mind boggling. The school didn't HAVE to offer him anything but they did because they're trying to sucker him into going there! The school is not going to "pull" their offer if he tries to negotiate. And they don't expect him to work for it. They expect that he'll probably lose it after the first year and they'll suck a couple hundred thousand dollars out of him. "Working hard" is not enough to do well in law school. Taking a scholarship at a school like this with that stipulation is a huge risk.


+1. Ridiculous.

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Grizz
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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby Grizz » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:41 am

stugots26 wrote:You know, I would take advice from IP kids in law schools in Chicago, but I'm already taking it from associates working in firms I've long had my eye on. I'd hazard a guess as to which group knows the market better and could better advise me...these are also potential networking opportunities.


Most advice from associates who aren't 1 or 2 years out isn't worth anything. They don't know how bad the market is. We law students often have a better handle on it, because we're actually the ones LOOKING FOR SHIT.

I wonder if you'd be intimating the same thing if a T25 or T14 offered a full-tuition scholarship with the same stipulation. Is there any bias there?


If hypothetically I got the same scholarship with stips from a T14, you could make an argument that it would be fine to stay at the school if you lost it. Especially if you were above median. Not the same for John Marshall.

Regardless, the stipulation is part of the terms. I've been rebuked on this forum for not wanting to accept facts. This is part of the package. By advising to change the package, who's not accepting facts as they are?

It's not about the school's feelings. It's about their offer as it stands. They didn't have to offer the OP ANYTHING. They did. And they expect him to work to keep it. If he tries to bargain, they can pull it. It's their offer, not a contract dispute. The statement about the school's audacity and employment statistics may be true. But it doesn't affect the inherent fact that this is the SCHOOL'S OFFER TO MAKE AS IT STANDS or LEAVE IT.

Why would any school allow a student to coast and still give him a full ride? I wager that the bigger risk is attempting to bargain and having the school decide to pull it.


There are plenty of anecdotes around here of people negotiating away scholarship stips. Those are the facts. If you lose the scholarship, it's probably not a good financial decision to stay at John Marshall. You do the math.

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Grizz
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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby Grizz » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:44 am

masochist wrote:JM is rumored to section stack. If they won't tell you exactly what percentage of scholarships are renewed for three years, run.


If they don't section stack, $5 says they give out more scholarships than people who can keep them.

Ex: give scholarships with top 1/3 stip to 1/2 of the incoming class.

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bjsesq
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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby bjsesq » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:15 am

stugots26 wrote:I wager that the bigger risk is attempting to bargain and having the school decide to pull it.

This is the last comment I'll make to your shill ass: if an institution decides to completely yank a scholly offer because a student attempts to protect himself, it tells us all we need to know about that institution.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:34 am

stugots26 wrote:4. A full-ride offer is not one with which to toy. Don't pick at it. No applicant has a right to dictate the terms of a scholarship to the school and have them remove the top third requirement. Yes, it's a gamble, but have a little confidence. You were likely given the scholarship because the admissions office wants to reel in talent it wouldn't otherwise get and boost its stats, so you'll probably be leading the pack anyway like me if you were good enough to land the scholarship.

This is just stupid.

Nobody's telling him to "dictate terms" to a school. Negotiating is always an option, and if the school truly has a desire to "reel in talent" it should be willing to discuss things like the terms of the scholarship with an interested student. That's both the school's choice, and his own. They're both free to refuse to negotiate or to accept terms the other side proposes, and as an applicant he's free to go elsewhere if he can't get terms from them that he agrees with. The notion that he can't discuss anything with the school because it's a full ride is just ludicrous.

Also, asserting that someone will "probably be leading the pack anyway" is terribly misguided. Predictive factors such as UGPA, LSAT, o other background factors do not correlate strongly to law school success. Every year there are a number of students at law schools nationwide who outperform low predictive factors, or underperform with high predictive factors. It happens, and it happens often enough that one must take the real risk of not meeting the scholarship requirements into consideration.

A top 1/3 stipulation is extraordinarily risky. There are no guarantees going into law school, you can't be certain you'll end up above median, let alone top third. You must consider what will happen if you lose the scholarship, and in this case you would be on the hook for full tuition for two years, a substantial sum especially considering the bleak employment prospects coming out of a school like John Marshall.

This is bait you should not take. Or, to sum it up far more succinctly:

--ImageRemoved--

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masochist
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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby masochist » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:46 am

vanwinkle wrote:
stugots26 wrote:4. A full-ride offer is not one with which to toy. Don't pick at it. No applicant has a right to dictate the terms of a scholarship to the school and have them remove the top third requirement. Yes, it's a gamble, but have a little confidence. You were likely given the scholarship because the admissions office wants to reel in talent it wouldn't otherwise get and boost its stats, so you'll probably be leading the pack anyway like me if you were good enough to land the scholarship.



This is bait you should not take. Or, to sum it up far more succinctly:

--ImageRemoved--


1) +1.5. The .5 is extra credit for the awesome use of a tar

2) OP, do not listen to stugots26. In considering this further, the advice he gave about negotiating a scholarship is only wrong 99.9% of the time. I think stugots26's advice might be completely correct for him alone. Judging by this thread (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=142595), calm and reasoned persuasion is not his forte.

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johnnyutah
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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby johnnyutah » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:13 pm

stugots26 wrote:Energizer: I'm interested in Intellectual Property as well. Like you, last Friday I just got offered the full ride at John Marshall, plus $10K a year, with the proviso that I remain in the top third. Did you earn the Markey Distinguished Scholar Program award, as they're calling it?

As I've begun to weigh this decision, I've concerned myself with several factors:

1. In an unsure legal job market, when even the T14 grads aren't guaranteed placement, does it really help to go $150K - $200K into nondischargeable debt? Especially when there are cases of individuals being unable to be accepted into the bar because the debt dings them on integrity.

2. I've begun talking to past such scholarship winners who are all pleased with their experiences at John Marshall and have found work in prestigious firms. I am meeting with the dean tomorrow morning and plan to get a more expansive list. The general consensus seems to be that even in today's questionable job market: even though John Marshall is not a top tier school, the IP focus is taken seriously by local prestigious firms, and the honor of the scholarship will also work largely to my benefit in pursuing work. It will become important to get onto the Review of Intellectual Property Law at the school. I've also looked at profiles of associates and partners at local prestigious firms and John Marshall is all over the place. I will be meeting/speaking with several of these individuals in the coming weeks, but the email responses already suggest they valued their law school experience and don't regret it at all. I'll report back and let you know more about what I find out.

3. My scholarship offers me placement with state and federal judicial externships, among other perks. That externship opportunity is a definite plus.

4. A full-ride offer is not one with which to toy. Don't pick at it. No applicant has a right to dictate the terms of a scholarship to the school and have them remove the top third requirement. Yes, it's a gamble, but have a little confidence. You were likely given the scholarship because the admissions office wants to reel in talent it wouldn't otherwise get and boost its stats, so you'll probably be leading the pack anyway like me if you were good enough to land the scholarship.

So far, though I'm very WARY of the school's OVERALL reputation, the consensus that I'm getting from the forum of past IP graduates with whom I've conferred suggests that while finding the first job might be slightly more difficult, the IP focus more than makes up for the rank of the school.

I fully intend to do more research before the April 15 deadline, and make an informed decision.

Welcome to TLS, Mr. John Marshall AdComm.

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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby ClayDavis » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:31 pm

stugots26 wrote:You know, I would take advice from IP kids in law schools in Chicago, but I'm already taking it from associates working in firms I've long had my eye on. I'd hazard a guess as to which group knows the market better and could better advise me...these are also potential networking opportunities.

If what you're intimating is true of the scholarship, then it's essentially true of any full-tuition scholarship regularly offered by law schools or other graduate schools, or even undergraduate institutions. Since they likely all carry some accountability, they're obviously all ways for the institutions to avoid their financial responsibilities to any such full-tuition scholar. I wonder if you'd be intimating the same thing if a T25 or T14 offered a full-tuition scholarship with the same stipulation. Is there any bias there?

Regardless, the stipulation is part of the terms. I've been rebuked on this forum for not wanting to accept facts. This is part of the package. By advising to change the package, who's not accepting facts as they are?

It's not about the school's feelings. It's about their offer as it stands. They didn't have to offer the OP ANYTHING. They did. And they expect him to work to keep it. If he tries to bargain, they can pull it. It's their offer, not a contract dispute. The statement about the school's audacity and employment statistics may be true. But it doesn't affect the inherent fact that this is the SCHOOL'S OFFER TO MAKE AS IT STANDS or LEAVE IT.

Why would any school allow a student to coast and still give him a full ride? I wager that the bigger risk is attempting to bargain and having the school decide to pull it.

Um, either you are a really well-crafted flame, or you're just an asshole for discouraging this kid from negotiating away his scholarship stipulation. Good schools, T14 or T25 or whatever, do not do this to their students. If you get a scholarship from a T14, it is, in all cases that I've heard of and in my own experience, unconditional. And even then, they are often receptive to negotiation.

Also, come on man, LOL at you talking to the dean or whatever and then networking with the alumni at "prestigious firms" that he recommends. You do realize that he is only going to recommend you talk to successful alums, right? Your willful ignorance is going to land you in a big pile of shit in a few years, and now you can't say you weren't warned.

stugots26
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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby stugots26 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:50 pm

First of all, I am not a troll or flaming you in any way. I won the scholarship and have been doing research on it.

Second of all, I'm talking to the very people I want to emulate. Past scholarship winners. These are more than meetings for advice. These are potential networking opportunities for a first job. No one encouraged me to do this, not even the dean. I've done it on my own thus far.

Third, having just come from the meeting with the dean, in which he was very forthcoming, I think it's clear that the scholarship is not a trap. I asked him flat out the number of full scholarship winners able to retain their scholarships after the first year. After explaining briefly that the program has been in place since 1997, and the two or three Markey (IP) scholars per year and the ten or so general distinguished scholars per year, he calculated that above 90% retained the scholarship. I asked a few unrelated questions, and then asked how the scholarship winners are placed within sections, and he explained that because of the curve, the scholars are evenly spread through the sections.

Fourth, the judicial externships as part of the program are guaranteed.

I will ask about the retention numbers and the section stacking as I continue to meet with alumni, faculty, and students, but I will mention again that the faculty and alumni communications are completely independent of any help of the school.

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johnnyutah
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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby johnnyutah » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:53 pm

stugots26 wrote:No one encouraged me to do this, not even the dean. I've done it on my own thus far.

You've gotten to be such a big boy!

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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby stugots26 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:03 pm

You folks are amazing. I return to the forum with new evidence to support my positions, and rather than discuss it, you circumvent any discussion and descend into juvenile mockery.

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Grizz
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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby Grizz » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:30 pm

Don't go to JM Chi even with a massive scholarship. How's that?

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Unemployed
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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby Unemployed » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:44 pm

stugots26 wrote:You folks are amazing. I return to the forum with new evidence to support my positions, and rather than discuss it, you circumvent any discussion and descend into juvenile mockery.


Dude. Just stop. Do your research, go to a law school, take contract law, figure out what "counteroffer" means, then come back.

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby Stringer Bell » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:51 pm

You can and probably should drop out if you can't keep that stipulation.

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johnnyutah
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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby johnnyutah » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:54 pm

stugots26 wrote:I return to the forum with new evidence to support my positions, and rather than discuss it, you circumvent any discussion and descend into juvenile mockery.

To say I descended into juvenile mockery assumes that I was once somewhere else. This is patently false. Let this be a lesson for you: "assume" makes an ASS of U and ME.

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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:05 pm

stugots26 wrote:First of all, I am not a troll or flaming you in any way. I won the scholarship and have been doing research on it.

Second of all, I'm talking to the very people I want to emulate.

So what you're saying is, you want to be an effective lawyer, and you think you can do that by emulating people who don't negotiate for better terms before accepting or rejecting an offer?

Also, this isn't a lottery. You didn't "win" anything. You received an offer designed to encourage you to attend, with strings attached. If you choose to accept it with those strings, that's your choice, but it brings with it new obligations you must meet and consequences if you don't. It's not some prize you can just collect. This isn't the state fair and we're not talking about a giant stuffed animal that belongs to you to keep or give to your SO as you wish.

You sound frighteningly naive and defensive for someone about to enter a cutthroat industry. And you didn't provide "new evidence" of anything, just more assertions that you're right and you know what you're talking about. There's plenty of reason by now to doubt both points.

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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby miazdc » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:17 pm

Is it just me, or do 80% of threads of TLS devolve into people bickering? In the spirit of getting this thread back on track:

I was also offered a full ride at JMLS with the top third stipulation. I agree that a full ride is tempting. But, my fear is that I would lose the scholarship, and then I'd be paying sticker price to go to the worst law school I applied to, in a terrible legal economy, in a city that's saturated with lawyers. I got into a top-30 and am waiting on others, and the prospect of paying ANY money to go to JMLS is just a risk I'm not willing to assume.

That being said. I have a friend who goes there and is very happy with her experience, and has recommended it to me highly. I plan to try to negotiate the stipulations out of the agreement, and if they don't budge.... then so long, JMLS.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby Kilpatrick » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:27 pm

stugots26 wrote:You folks are amazing. I return to the forum with new evidence to support my positions, and rather than discuss it, you circumvent any discussion and descend into juvenile mockery.


Your "new evidence" comes from the person who has the most incentive to mislead you.

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masochist
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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby masochist » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:44 pm

stugots26 wrote:
he calculated that above 90% retained the scholarship.



He calculated this while you were sitting there? If so, why is it such an inexact number? If not, when did he calculate this? 90% is suspiciously high. Are you sure he is not saying that 90% renew the scholarship for the second year? Depending upon the way they count drop-outs, class rank may be inflated at the beginning of the second year. With close to 16% attrition, a top-third class rank could be obtained with grades that put you close to the median provided that drop-outs are ranked. I also wonder about transfers. Given that JM is apparently so good at predicting law school grades that they can select a dozen students they know will be in the top of their class based upon their LS application, why aren't more of the people with scholarships transfering out? If the people with the scholarship really do end up at the top of the class, I have a hard time believing that only one out of ten would transfer. I know of at least one who did this, and I doubt he was the only one clever enough to consider this option.

Data will convince me. This isn't really data.

You can and probably should drop out if you can't keep that stipulation.


TITCR

I did have one lawyer friend who managed to make the JM scholarship work for him. He wasn't very good a standardized testing so he was never able to get his LSAT up to the level he wanted. Rather than take on a huge amount of debt to attend a t2, he accepted one of the big scholarships from JM. When he accpeted it, his plan was to go to JM for the first year, rock his classes, and tranfer to somewhere better than he would have been able to get into initially. His back-up plan was to rock his classes, retain his scholarship, and continue to go to school for nearly free. His back-up to the back-up plan was to drop out of JM after a year but before writing them a single tuition check. Median at JM = unemployed and in crushing debt.

He was able to rock his classes and transfered to a t25. That said, only take the scholarship if you are willing to cut your losses after a year. The stipulation makes this a gamble, and it is always good to set a limit on acceptable losses before sitting down to gamble.

09042014
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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:03 pm

You better be willing to drop out if you don't get top third. Also Chicago IP firms don't seem to be filled with JMLS grads. Maybe if you want patent prosecution.

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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby stugots26 » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:38 pm

Okay, I'm back after my first year at John Marshall Chicago, and I wanted to bump up this post after all this time.

I took a risk, took the full ride scholarship with top third stipulation, and guess what? I kept the scholarship. It took hard work, lots of studying, and dealing with a couple of wild-card professors, but with hard work and determination it's ENTIRELY POSSIBLE to keep a scholarship. I know at least six other people (not everyone advertises that he or she is a scholarship student) with the same stipulation this year who have kept their scholarships. Those who may have lost their scholarship fully admit to slacking this semester.

I bought in to the fear about the section-stacking and pay-for-two-years-after-I-can't-keep-my-scholarship disaster scenarios, anecdotes that are shared on this forum about people losing their scholarships - to a point. I'm beginning to think, however, that people will blame and rationalize rather than accepting that they couldn't hack it. In the end, yes, it took a lot of hard work, but it is by no means impossible. The school wants us to graduate debt-free so we aren't forced to choose jobs based on our debt loads. I'm working a patent job for the summer, I'm taking the Patent Bar, and I'll have a bunch of interviews at the Patent Law Interview Program as a result of a combination of the PhD, my resume, and networking.

In short, the disaster scenarios spouted on this thread were the most irresponsible and untrue fear-mongering techniques I've ever seen. Completely ridiculous and contrary to reality. It's like people need to shoot down any route toward a successful law career that isn't at a top school with a crapload of debt.

Stipulations are entirely manageable and reasonable measures of accountability, and as I got closer and closer to keeping the scholarship, the humor of this thread, and those like it, hit me more and more. Well, I've said my piece. Let the flaming begin - but it's going to be kind of difficult to dispute hard evidence of success. I'll check back after a while and I've kept the scholarship for another semester.

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bjsesq
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Re: Anyone in at John Marshall Chicago? Any info would be great

Postby bjsesq » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:44 pm

stugots26 wrote:Okay, I'm back after my first year at John Marshall Chicago, and I wanted to bump up this post after all this time.

I took a risk, took the full ride scholarship with top third stipulation, and guess what? I kept the scholarship. It took hard work, lots of studying, and dealing with a couple of wild-card professors, but with hard work and determination it's ENTIRELY POSSIBLE to keep a scholarship. I know at least six other people (not everyone advertises that he or she is a scholarship student) with the same stipulation this year who have kept their scholarships. Those who may have lost their scholarship fully admit to slacking this semester.

I bought in to the fear about the section-stacking and pay-for-two-years-after-I-can't-keep-my-scholarship disaster scenarios, anecdotes that are shared on this forum about people losing their scholarships - to a point. I'm beginning to think, however, that people will blame and rationalize rather than accepting that they couldn't hack it. In the end, yes, it took a lot of hard work, but it is by no means impossible. The school wants us to graduate debt-free so we aren't forced to choose jobs based on our debt loads. I'm working a patent job for the summer, I'm taking the Patent Bar, and I'll have a bunch of interviews at the Patent Law Interview Program as a result of a combination of the PhD, my resume, and networking.

In short, the disaster scenarios spouted on this thread were the most irresponsible and untrue fear-mongering techniques I've ever seen. Completely ridiculous and contrary to reality. It's like people need to shoot down any route toward a successful law career that isn't at a top school with a crapload of debt.

Stipulations are entirely manageable and reasonable measures of accountability, and as I got closer and closer to keeping the scholarship, the humor of this thread, and those like it, hit me more and more. Well, I've said my piece. Let the flaming begin - but it's going to be kind of difficult to dispute hard evidence of success. I'll check back after a while and I've kept the scholarship for another semester.


Your story= it's a generally good idea. Good to see they got the bright minds down at John Marshall.




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