Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

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DeeCee
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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby DeeCee » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:19 am

After talking to people on this forum, although I still believe that rating people based on their achievements should be #1, perhaps maybe the LSAT could still factor in a bit. I still think the LSAT has MAJOR flaws and is not economically feasible for some of the most disadvantaged people, though.

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby peter844 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:20 am

peter844 wrote:
Drake014 wrote:
peter844 wrote:
DCLaw11 wrote:Peter844, are you trying to debate the merits of the LSAT? :D



Haha trying a bit. Although it's hard to post from a phone


I'd advise using a PC.


I agree


I don't have a low gpa. Other way around kind of. My comment landed in the middle of the 12 years out of school rant. It should be below that

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Drake014
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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby Drake014 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:21 am

peter844 wrote:
peter844 wrote:
Drake014 wrote:
peter844 wrote:
Haha trying a bit. Although it's hard to post from a phone


I'd advise using a PC.


I agree


I don't have a low gpa. Other way around kind of. My comment landed in the middle of the 12 years out of school rant. It should be below that


Sorry, the way your quote came out confused me a bit.

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DeeCee
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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby DeeCee » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:22 am

I guess my opinion comes a little from the fact that I have good achievements and an awesome GPA in a science degree, but yet my LSAT is not the best.

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby DeeCee » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:23 am

Drake014 wrote:
peter844 wrote:
I don't have a low gpa. Other way around kind of. My comment landed in the middle of the 12 years out of school rant. It should be below that


Sorry, the way your quote came out confused me a bit.


I'm a little confused too.

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Drake014
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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby Drake014 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:24 am

DCLaw11 wrote:After talking to people on this forum, although I still believe that rating people based on their achievements should be #1, perhaps maybe the LSAT could still factor in a bit. I still think the LSAT has MAJOR flaws and is not economically feasible for some of the most disadvantaged people, though.


I agree with you in most respects. Its really hard to rate people according to their achievements though. I have a classmate that went to Africa, interviewed the child soldiers there, and published a book on it. How the hell do you rate that compared to another student who has several patents? The first gets 10 points and the second gets 8? Every Berkeley applicant has some weird achievements.

On the down side, because every applicant has impressive achievements, the LSAT ends up being the determining factor in T14 schools. That's terrible and unfair.

DCLaw11 wrote:I guess my opinion comes a little from the fact that I have good achievements and an awesome GPA in a science degree, but yet my LSAT is not the best.


I scored a 177 and I still hate how the LSAT's used.

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby Woozy » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:29 am

DCLaw11 wrote:After talking to people on this forum, although I still believe that rating people based on their achievements should be #1, perhaps maybe the LSAT could still factor in a bit. I still think the LSAT has MAJOR flaws and is not economically feasible for some of the most disadvantaged people, though.


1. What is an achievement?

2. What bearing do achievements have on success in law school/law practice?

3. Why do you think focus on achievements instead of LSAT will help disadvantaged people?

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby DeeCee » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:29 am

Drake014 wrote:
DCLaw11 wrote:After talking to people on this forum, although I still believe that rating people based on their achievements should be #1, perhaps maybe the LSAT could still factor in a bit. I still think the LSAT has MAJOR flaws and is not economically feasible for some of the most disadvantaged people, though.


I agree with you in most respects. Its really hard to rate people according to their achievements though. I have a classmate that went to Africa, interviewed the child soldiers there, and published a book on it. How the hell do you rate that compared to another student who has several patents? The first gets 10 points and the second gets 8? Every Berkeley applicant has some weird achievements.

On the down side, because every applicant has impressive achievements, the LSAT ends up being the determining factor in T14 schools. That's terrible and unfair.

DCLaw11 wrote:I guess my opinion comes a little from the fact that I have good achievements and an awesome GPA in a science degree, but yet my LSAT is not the best.


I scored a 177 and I still hate how the LSAT's used.


I think standardized tests suck because in so many instances I have seen people achieve above their score. That's crazy about your classmate in Africa, my softs would never compare to those!

However, there must be (more) objective criteria for law school, somehow. I just can't see how one test could be an indicator of success, especially if a person has been out of school for a while and has an impressive resume, but not an impressive GPA (this is not me, but just sayin).

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby Drake014 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:35 am

DCLaw11 wrote:I think standardized tests suck because in so many instances I have seen people achieve above their score. That's crazy about your classmate in Africa, my softs would never compare to those!

However, there must be (more) objective criteria for law school, somehow. I just can't see how one test could be an indicator of success, especially if a person has been out of school for a while and has an impressive resume, but not an impressive GPA (this is not me, but just sayin).


Traditionally, the LSAT is only an indicator of 1L grades and only to a fairly small degree (.1-.2 correlation or something like that). It doesn't really have a significant correlation to 2L or 3L grades and it has no correlation to actual success as a lawyer. The law schools have to admit according to something though and at least the test has some small correlation to 1L grades. However, once you get into law school (if you're not yet), I think you'll be disappointed with how little law school grading seems to have anything to do with being a lawyer. As a lawyer, your success does not depend on issue spotting over a few hour period but most of your grades will. Its one senseless thing after another.

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby DeeCee » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:38 am

see post below
Last edited by DeeCee on Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby DeeCee » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:38 am

1. What is an achievement?
I'm not sure. Perhaps a leadership role in an organization, or another activity I have not thought of yet.

2. What bearing do achievements have on success in law school/law practice?
Leadership qualities in a non-required activity could mean an applicant is mature and might put in the time and work hard in law school. Obviously this is not always true, but participation does equal effort.

3. Why do you think focus on achievements instead of LSAT will help disadvantaged people?
I think that standardized tests are inherently disadvantageous for minorities because it takes a lot of time and resources to prepare for the test, and that person might not have those resources. Instead, if that student could participate in an activity that was meaningful to them outside of the home, these factors could weigh a little in the admissions process.

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby JCougar » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:46 am

Drake014 wrote: As a lawyer, your success does not depend on issue spotting over a few hour period but most of your grades will. Its one senseless thing after another.


Not to mention issue spotting with only a limited, simple set of laws that you learned from your casebook, in which nearly everybody in your class will be able to understand even without the help of their outline.

What differentiates the As and the Bs is not who understands the material better...because everyone understands it. It's who studies how to write law school exams the hardest, and about satisfying your professor's ego in addition to understanding the material.

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby DeeCee » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:47 am

Drake014 wrote:
DCLaw11 wrote:I think standardized tests suck because in so many instances I have seen people achieve above their score. That's crazy about your classmate in Africa, my softs would never compare to those!

However, there must be (more) objective criteria for law school, somehow. I just can't see how one test could be an indicator of success, especially if a person has been out of school for a while and has an impressive resume, but not an impressive GPA (this is not me, but just sayin).


Traditionally, the LSAT is only an indicator of 1L grades and only to a fairly small degree (.1-.2 correlation or something like that). It doesn't really have a significant correlation to 2L or 3L grades and it has no correlation to actual success as a lawyer. The law schools have to admit according to something though and at least the test has some small correlation to 1L grades. However, once you get into law school (if you're not yet), I think you'll be disappointed with how little law school grading seems to have anything to do with being a lawyer. As a lawyer, your success does not depend on issue spotting over a few hour period but most of your grades will. Its one senseless thing after another.


Since you have had the law school versus lawyer experience, what do you believe might predict 1L success?

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby DeeCee » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:47 am

DCLaw11 wrote:
Drake014 wrote:
DCLaw11 wrote:I think standardized tests suck because in so many instances I have seen people achieve above their score. That's crazy about your classmate in Africa, my softs would never compare to those!

However, there must be (more) objective criteria for law school, somehow. I just can't see how one test could be an indicator of success, especially if a person has been out of school for a while and has an impressive resume, but not an impressive GPA (this is not me, but just sayin).


Traditionally, the LSAT is only an indicator of 1L grades and only to a fairly small degree (.1-.2 correlation or something like that). It doesn't really have a significant correlation to 2L or 3L grades and it has no correlation to actual success as a lawyer. The law schools have to admit according to something though and at least the test has some small correlation to 1L grades. However, once you get into law school (if you're not yet), I think you'll be disappointed with how little law school grading seems to have anything to do with being a lawyer. As a lawyer, your success does not depend on issue spotting over a few hour period but most of your grades will. Its one senseless thing after another.


Since you have had the law school versus lawyer experience, what do you believe might predict 1L success?


This is an honest question, not sarcasm

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby DeeCee » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:49 am

This is an off-topic question, but have any of you been in grad school? I am currently in grad school finishing my thesis, and as a future law student, I'd like to know differences, if anyone has had both experiences.

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby Drake014 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:50 am

DCLaw11 wrote:
Drake014 wrote:
DCLaw11 wrote:I think standardized tests suck because in so many instances I have seen people achieve above their score. That's crazy about your classmate in Africa, my softs would never compare to those!

However, there must be (more) objective criteria for law school, somehow. I just can't see how one test could be an indicator of success, especially if a person has been out of school for a while and has an impressive resume, but not an impressive GPA (this is not me, but just sayin).


Traditionally, the LSAT is only an indicator of 1L grades and only to a fairly small degree (.1-.2 correlation or something like that). It doesn't really have a significant correlation to 2L or 3L grades and it has no correlation to actual success as a lawyer. The law schools have to admit according to something though and at least the test has some small correlation to 1L grades. However, once you get into law school (if you're not yet), I think you'll be disappointed with how little law school grading seems to have anything to do with being a lawyer. As a lawyer, your success does not depend on issue spotting over a few hour period but most of your grades will. Its one senseless thing after another.


Since you have had the law school versus lawyer experience, what do you believe might predict 1L success?


I haven't had the lawyer experience other than working besides lawyers for one day at this semester's externship. I'm a 2L. I'm happy with where my future looks to be heading though. Eh... career wise anyway.

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby Drake014 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:51 am

DCLaw11 wrote:This is an off-topic question, but have any of you been in grad school? I am currently in grad school finishing my thesis, and as a future law student, I'd like to know differences, if anyone has had both experiences.


I'd start another discussion on this when when more people are on if you don't get any responses tonight.

Edit: Also, are you ignoring my PMs or not getting them? If its the former, you hurt my feelings. :(

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby DeeCee » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:54 am

Drake014 wrote:
DCLaw11 wrote:This is an off-topic question, but have any of you been in grad school? I am currently in grad school finishing my thesis, and as a future law student, I'd like to know differences, if anyone has had both experiences.


I'd start another discussion on this when when more people are on if you don't get any responses tonight.

Edit: Also, are you ignoring my PMs or not getting them? If its the former, you hurt my feelings. :(


My bad! I'm kind of new here, so I will check them now.

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby JCougar » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:06 am

DCLaw11 wrote:This is an off-topic question, but have any of you been in grad school? I am currently in grad school finishing my thesis, and as a future law student, I'd like to know differences, if anyone has had both experiences.


It probably really depends on the grad school program.

The law that you learn 1L is really not all that complex, and it's fairly easy to understand and apply. And your competition is pretty smart. What do you get when you have a grading distribution that forces professors to differentiate grade-wise between a bunch of really smart people trying to understand something that's fairly simple? There's a lot of focus on petty, superficial stuff on a law school exam, rather than on depth of understanding...such as using terms that your professor likes, tailoring your answers to your professor's individual style, fast typing speed, or just plain getting lucky.

Grad school programs are usually focused on understanding more complex material, on research and coming up with your own ideas, and becoming an expert on the subject matter.

People say that law school is more competitive and cutthroat, but in my experience, almost everyone in law school is a pretty good person.

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby serdog » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:24 am

of the North American schools there the only one that does not require the LSAT (and is worth attending) is McGill, however if you have taken the LSAT it a consideration in admission I would think some schools would do something similar if the LSAT was made optional.

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby amers73 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:05 am

I feel that the LSAT is an equalizer and an indicator of logical reasoning/analytical skills (to a degree). There are always people who do better in law school than their LSAT score would indicate. However its not just about being smart, its a skills test.

Does anybody remember the guy from the Paper Chase? The one who had an amazing memory but couldn't analyze anything?
Soft achievement may show work ethic, but not intellectual skill. Without the LSAT I think a lot of really great people would go to law school with fantastic GPAs from TTT schools and impressive achievements, but those people may not have the skills to excel in LS.

My point is the LSAT should stay.

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby tttlllsss » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:28 am

Exactly, the LSAT is the great equalizer, and that's why it's here to stay. OK, let's say it were banished. I think some other standardized test would simply take its place.

Why do we need a standardized test? Well...

Everyone here is overlooking the fact that ECs, work experience, special accomplishments, etc, can't really be evaluated on a merit basis in any comparative way. OK, let's say you did "research" for 2 yrs in the gene lab at your school. You put on your resume that it was real high-level stuff, that you toiled endlessly on some project that will ultimately benefit millions. You get a LOR from your prof; he says that you're a top-notch student, really smart, and dedicated.

That's fine and all, but there's no way to verify that you actually weren't just fooling around for 2 yrs. There's no way to measure what you've done. There's no way to compare that experience to someone else's special experience. Finally, and most importantly, there's no way to determine - in any comparative sort of way - whether this experience makes you a good law candidate.

On the other hand, we've got 2 numbers - LSAT and GPA. These 2 numbers sum up your achievements in a directly comparable way. Is that totally fair? Of course not, but I think it's way more fair than trying to compare unlike experiences.

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby SrLaw » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:18 am

My post was the following.

Law School Admissions should = Med School Admissions.

If you want to be a lawyer you will take it seriously and perform. I am sure we have all seen way too many young people choose LS as a default or just go for the hell of it. They stagger in with their 3.1 GPA's and 152 LSAT's and grab a seat a Western State and rack up 180K in debt.
The ABA needs to make gaining accreditation much more difficult. Elitist or not, some people should just not be lawyers. If you can only get into TTT/TTTT at sticker then you should not go to LS. Yes, a few people will make it and become successful but the majority will get a worthless degree and owe more money then they will ever make.

Perfect example in NC Law Market - Duke, Wake, UNC, Campbell, NCCU, Elon, etc.

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby queenlizzie13 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:40 am

tttlllsss wrote:Exactly, the LSAT is the great equalizer, and that's why it's here to stay. OK, let's say it were banished. I think some other standardized test would simply take its place.

Why do we need a standardized test? Well...

Everyone here is overlooking the fact that ECs, work experience, special accomplishments, etc, can't really be evaluated on a merit basis in any comparative way. OK, let's say you did "research" for 2 yrs in the gene lab at your school. You put on your resume that it was real high-level stuff, that you toiled endlessly on some project that will ultimately benefit millions. You get a LOR from your prof; he says that you're a top-notch student, really smart, and dedicated.

That's fine and all, but there's no way to verify that you actually weren't just fooling around for 2 yrs. There's no way to measure what you've done. There's no way to compare that
experience to someone else's special experience. Finally, and most importantly, there's no
way to determine - in any comparative sort of way - whether this experience makes you a
good law candidate.

On the other hand, we've got 2 numbers - LSAT and GPA. These 2 numbers sum up your
achievements in a directly comparable way. Is that totally fair? Of course not, but I think it's
way more fair than trying to compare unlike experiences.


+1. Measuring "achievements" is way too subjective. Diversity is good and law schools should strive for it, but I agree there has to be some kind of numerical basis to measure people on.

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Re: Will Law Schools Drop the LSAT Requirement?

Postby firemed » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:32 am

queenlizzie13 wrote:
+1. Measuring "achievements" is way too subjective. Diversity is good and law schools should strive for it, but I agree there has to be some kind of numerical basis to measure people on.


I absolutely agree that you need numbers to give you a good idea. I think that LSAT and GPA should be 50% of the decision, and should be used as a cutoff measure. Then, when it comes to measuring achievements, I think some things could really help out. For instance, Canadian schools require you to list a person and phone number for each and every "achievement." That helps out.

I think interviews would also really help out. This is a career that regularly requires human interaction. There are people who get into lawl school who have the social skills of a dead mollusk. Even more who get in without a even vaguely reasonable reason they want to become a lawyer... I still don't get how people get into law school without knowing why the hell they want to be a lawyer. One of my friends, for instance, went to law school because he (and he admits it) literally didn't have any other idea what to do. Got a specialization in Maritime law and moved to a landlocked desert to practice. The fact that it is considered somewhat inappropriate to use a PS to talk about why you want to go to LS means that people can get in without ever articulating a decent reason.




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