HYS Intimidation

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AreJay711
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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:07 pm

notanumber wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:
notanumber wrote:I, for one, hope that I am surrounded by trust fund types in law school. I intend to marry one and live a life of leisure.

But seriously, the grading systems and job opportunities at HYS probably make those schools more forgiving to the easily intimidated than CCN would be. The pass/pass grading system of YLS and the knowledge that I'll primarily be competing with myself and not my classmates, was one of its biggest draws for me.

What wasn't serious about the first part?


One would imagine that very few billionaire heiresses actually have the desire to attend a top law school.


Maybe their family members or the general university. DON'T GIVE UP ON YOUR DREAMS!!!

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Helmholtz
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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:18 pm

In terms of pure educational backgrounds, I don't think you're going to see that much of a difference between HYS and CCN. Just like any other school in the top ten, plenty of people at my school have been educated at schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Oxford, etc. and I can't say that that fact alone has done anything to intimidate me. Often I'll get to know somebody, think they're a genius, and be shocked that they went to Colorado State, for example, while I'll meet other people who are not so much in the genius category and I find out that they have an undergrad from Princeton and a masters from Harvard. From somebody who grew up in a rural area and went to a pretty crappy state school, I think it's easy to put faceless HYP grads up on a pedestal until you're actually put in a classroom with them and for the most part, they seem to be on pretty much the same level as you. If you can make it to HYS, you're there for a reason. The admissions office thought that you were bright enough to pull your own weight, and there's generally no reason why you can't.

Kaitlyn
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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby Kaitlyn » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:19 pm

notanumber wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:
notanumber wrote:I, for one, hope that I am surrounded by trust fund types in law school. I intend to marry one and live a life of leisure.

But seriously, the grading systems and job opportunities at HYS probably make those schools more forgiving to the easily intimidated than CCN would be. The pass/pass grading system of YLS and the knowledge that I'll primarily be competing with myself and not my classmates, was one of its biggest draws for me.

What wasn't serious about the first part?


One would imagine that very few billionaire heiresses actually have the desire to attend a top law school.


THIS.

Furthermore, as an HYP undergrad who knows more than a few people at HYS, I can assure you that a lot of these people aren't nearly as impressive as you think. It's not that hard to look good on paper.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby Bildungsroman » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:25 pm

Helmholtz wrote: Colorado State


A damn fine institution.

d34d9823
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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby d34d9823 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:25 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
Helmholtz wrote: Colorado State


A damn fine institution.

Where they love their sheep, if you know what I mean.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby Bildungsroman » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:26 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:
Helmholtz wrote: Colorado State


A damn fine institution.

Where they love their sheep, if you know what I mean.

Well, the mascot is a ram. Unless you mean something else I'm not catching...

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Helmholtz
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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:27 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
Helmholtz wrote: Colorado State


A damn fine institution.


HYPCst

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AreJay711
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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:28 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:
Helmholtz wrote: Colorado State


A damn fine institution.

Where they love their sheep, if you know what I mean.

Well, the mascot is a ram. Unless you mean something else I'm not catching...

I think he is saying they take after their mascot in certain carnal activities.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby Bildungsroman » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:29 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:
Helmholtz wrote: Colorado State


A damn fine institution.


HYPCst


This has always been my understanding of the top tier as well. Let's be friends.
Last edited by Bildungsroman on Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

A&O
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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby A&O » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:29 pm

I used to think there was a huge difference between HYS and the rest.

But the moment you learn that they all admit students with 167s and sub 3.8 GPAs, you also learn that there's nothing intellectually significant that separates you from those who were admitted. That is to say, there is no such thing as being, "HYS material."

Edit: Let me be more clear:

When HYS admit students with 3.8/167, they're essentially stating that they have sufficient intellectual capabilities to survive at those schools. When they say that, they're essentially also saying that almost any other student in the T14 has sufficient intellectual capabilities to survive at HYS as well. Yes, HYS might have something special (i.e., URM status, significant work experience, whatever), but that doesn't necessarily translate into being able to perform better in the class or into a higher likelihood of surviving the "rigors" of HYS.

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AreJay711
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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:39 pm

A&O wrote:I used to think there was a huge difference between HYS and the rest.

But the moment you learn that they all admit students with 167s and sub 3.8 GPAs, you also learn that there's nothing intellectually significant that separates you from those who were admitted. That is to say, there is no such thing as being, "HYS material."

Well think about it. UVA: 3.85 / 170 Yale: 3.9 /173

Yale is only .05 better gpa and 3 extra questions right on the LSAT than UVA at the median. Using weighted 25ths and 75ths, the difference is greater but still not huge.

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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby A&O » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:41 pm

Yale is only .05 better gpa and 3 extra questions right on the LSAT than UVA at the median. Using weighted 25ths and 75ths, the difference is greater but still not huge.


No, I'm not talking about it in that way. I'm seeing language in this thread that's all about being "HYS material" or whatever. The fact is that if HYS admit students with numbers like 3.7/167, the concede that students with those numbers can survive at their schools and are "HYS materials." Just in terms of numbers, then, almost every other student in the T14 is "HYS material."

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20121109
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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby 20121109 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:42 pm

A&O wrote:
Yale is only .05 better gpa and 3 extra questions right on the LSAT than UVA at the median. Using weighted 25ths and 75ths, the difference is greater but still not huge.


No, I'm not talking about it in that way. I'm seeing language in this thread that's all about being "HYS material" or whatever. The fact is that if HYS admit students with numbers like 3.7/167, the concede that students with those numbers can survive at their schools and are "HYS materials." Just in terms of numbers, then, almost every other student in the T14 is "HYS material."


Then this means that HYS material is more than just the numbers?

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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby d34d9823 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:43 pm

A&O wrote:When HYS admit students with 3.8/167, they're essentially stating that they have sufficient intellectual capabilities to survive at those schools. When they say that, they're essentially also saying that almost any other student in the T14 has sufficient intellectual capabilities to survive at HYS as well.


This is dumb. They don't roll dice to see which 3.8/167s to take. LSAT and GPA are hardly a perfect measure, and they saw something else in that person's packet that convinced them that they were a good candidate.

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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby A&O » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:47 pm

Then this means that HYS material is more than just the numbers?


Sure...
...but when you drill it down to what specifically it is, it's usually pretty arbitrary. If a specific student is admitted to Harvard with a 3.67/167, but is Hispanic and that factor shifted the tie in her favor, you can't possibly argue that suddenly her being Hispanic makes her more "HYS material" than anyone else who was rejected with those numbers. That would be pretty racist, actually.

Or...
...suppose an admissions officer woke up one morning and, after watching an intriguing documentary on South America, she decides she wants more Fulbright scholars who worked in South America. Say she admits someone with numbers who would otherwise be rejected, based on the fact that he is a Fulbright scholar in South America. There's nothing "HYS material" about it. Dude just got lucky.

Or...
...in terms of Yale, suppose a professor reviewing an application has a particular affinity for platonism, and an applicant waxes poetic about platonism in his essay. Suppose the professor gives a much higher rating on that factor, giving the applicant an acceptance at Yale. Are you going to say that being a platonist is HYS material and being a non-platonist with the same numbers relegates one to the gutter of Columbia Law School?

Makes no sense.

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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby A&O » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:51 pm

Or, back in the day, when Harvard admitted only men, would you be willing then to contend that the women of those times were not "Harvard material?"

Come on. The preferences for certain factors are just signs of the times. They have nothing more to do with being "HYS material" than being a part of the white boys club back in the day was "Harvard material."

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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby d34d9823 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:52 pm

A&O wrote:
Then this means that HYS material is more than just the numbers?


Sure...
...but when you drill it down to what specifically it is, it's usually pretty arbitrary. If a specific student is admitted to Harvard with a 3.67/167, but is Hispanic and that factor shifted the tie in her favor, you can't possibly argue that suddenly her being Hispanic makes her more "HYS material" than anyone else who was rejected with those numbers. That would be pretty racist, actually.

Or...
...suppose an admissions officer woke up one morning and, after watching an intriguing documentary on South America, she decides she wants more Fulbright scholars who worked in South America. Say she admits someone with numbers who would otherwise be rejected, based on the fact that he is a Fulbright scholar in South America. There's nothing "HYS material" about it. Dude just got lucky.

Or...
...in terms of Yale, suppose a professor reviewing an application has a particular affinity for platonism, and an applicant waxes poetic about platonism in his essay. Suppose the professor gives a much higher rating on that factor, giving the applicant an acceptance at Yale. Are you going to say that being a platonist is HYS material and being a non-platonist relegates one to the gutter of Columbia Law School?

Makes no sense.

  • All of these are things that add to their credentials.
  • You're assuming that professors decide admissions based on a process akin to drunk pin the tail on the donkey.
  • None of the "luck" you're claiming is somehow unique to the law admissions process. Demonstrating that normal statistical fluctuations apply to HYS hardly invalidates their entire selection process.

A&O
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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby A&O » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:57 pm

All of these are things that add to their credentials.
You're assuming that professors decide admissions based on a process akin to drunk pin the tail on the donkey.
None of the "luck" you're claiming is somehow unique to the law admissions process. Demonstrating that normal statistical fluctuations apply to HYS hardly invalidates their entire selection process.


(1) Yes, all of these things add to their credentials

(2) Professors always have their own intellectual beliefs. It shouldn't be surprising or at all controversial that they will, at times, exhibit preferences for people who share them.

(3) I'm not trying to "invalidate" a selection process.

I'm merely saying that the notion of something being "HYS material" is just conjured from people making up concepts, trying to feel good about themselves. If you really walk through the streets of Morningside Heights and, as you walk by the Columbia Law student, that you're "more HYS material than he will ever be," there's something wrong.

Yes, on average, the numbers are higher. On average, HYS classes tend to have more accomplishments. But there is nothing in the concept of being "HYS material" other than what you load into it, and I get the sick feeling that some people are just making up this concept to feel like they're special or something. Yes, you're special. No, you're not special because you belong to some arbitrary little club. Yes, you're special because of the qualities you have.

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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby d34d9823 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:00 pm

On a side note, I would actually be terrified to write about a professor's pet subject.

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AreJay711
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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:01 pm

@A&O

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just pointing out that numerically there isn't a huge difference either. As a whole, HYS are only very slightly better than the rest of the t14 numerically. I'm sure they look for more than just numbers but numbers are probably what they use to determine academic potential and other factors are just what interesting perspectives you can bring to the table.

A&O
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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby A&O » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:04 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:On a side note, I would actually be terrified to write about a professor's pet subject.


I'm not saying that people, necessarily, pander to the professor's intellectual whims, though I know some who have tried. I'm just saying that if the student happens to write about some intellectual topic that the professor happens to agree with, that might shift the tide in the student's favor. In the law school admissions world, where students with good numbers always exceed the number of seats at a top school, admissions officers and reviewers have to make mind-numbingly fine distinctions to make up their decisions.

And this factor pervades any decision-making process. If two guys are up for partner, but only one can make it and one is rejected because he rubbed one other partner the wrong way, there's nothing really making the rejected one any less "partner material" than the other.

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Veyron
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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby Veyron » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:05 pm

delusional wrote:Say someone has a good GPA at an average school, and does well enough on the LSAT to be a strong consider at HYS. Said person feels that they have an educational disadvantage compared to all the trust-fund Ivy undergrads who were previously acclaimed ballerinas or Navy colonels, or King George IV's speech therapist. Is that a reason to attend CCN over one of the top 3?

In short, is it logical to prefer being comparatively "overqualified", so to speak, at CCN rather than average or slightly below at HYS?


You DO understand that ALL top law schools are predominantly full of members of the middle and upper middle classes, RIGHT? Very few true trust-fund babies go to ANY T-14s. If you think about it, why go for biglaw if you're already loaded or have connections that can get you a SWeet corporate job. If you want to be PI, there are more effective ways to do PI if you have $. Mostly, the upper classes don't go to law school unless they either (a) want to be lawyers [various Kennedies for e.g.] or (b) need a law degree to show people that they are not spoiled kids with no maturity but rather hard-working adults who can put forth the effort and have the stick-tuitidedness necessary to get a JD.
Last edited by Veyron on Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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20121109
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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby 20121109 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:05 pm

A&O wrote:Yes, on average, the numbers are higher. On average, HYS classes tend to have more accomplishments. But there is nothing in the concept of being "HYS material" other than what you load into it, and I get the sick feeling that some people are just making up this concept to feel like they're special or something. Yes, you're special. No, you're not special because you belong to some arbitrary little club. Yes, you're special because of the qualities you have.


tbf, people push the whole "HYS material" label upon those that attend HYS. We don't label ourselves these things. Just a little personal anecdote, I watched the local news one night and the reporter referred to Harvard students as "intellectual elites." I couldn't help but laugh because I'm also student and in no way do I think that I'm an "intellectual elite." In fact, quite a few of my classmates don't think so either. We just worked hard and we're grateful that the admissions committee saw something a little special in us. But of course, this isn't representative of all HYS students. Just saying that some of us are still quite humble.

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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby rundoxierun » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:08 pm

How about this:

None of us are that smart (meaning future HYS/t-14 students) we are masters of sociology, political science and history. Our research is mostly simplistic and very rarely complex. Our field is of the sort that pretty much anyone could do. Our standardized test is the most useless and meaningless thing ever created. A good portion of us would struggle in a community college Calculus I class. Most of our college classes were things that we found interesting rather than useful.

None of us are special. Law isnt super hard. Just join the party and dont be scared.

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Drake014
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Re: HYS Intimidation

Postby Drake014 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:08 pm

delusional wrote:Say someone has a good GPA at an average school, and does well enough on the LSAT to be a strong consider at HYS. Said person feels that they have an educational disadvantage compared to all the trust-fund Ivy undergrads who were previously acclaimed ballerinas or Navy colonels, or King George IV's speech therapist. Is that a reason to attend CCN over one of the top 3?

In short, is it logical to prefer being comparatively "overqualified", so to speak, at CCN rather than average or slightly below at HYS?


Do what I did, pass up HYS and attend another T14 for free. Why? Because you don't have a trust-find like others do but you're still smarter than them.




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