A Law Career Outside of T14

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drummerboy
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A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby drummerboy » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:28 pm

It seems that for all intents and purposes, unless you graduate from a T14 or similar, that you shouldnt even bother attending law school. Thus, for the great majority of people out there that dont qualify for T14, your future is dismal. I personally can not believe this is the case. Indeed, practically every attorney I have ever met or have consulted did not graduate from a T14 school. Moreover, they all seem to be successful and suggest that you should try to go to the best school you should get into or at least one in the city you plan on living in. T14 schools they reiterate, opens different doors than than all others. If you want Big Law, and dont mind being number 200 plus on the totem pole, working 18 hour days with little or no recognition, surrounded by cut throat peers overworking for the most billable hours, then T14 maybe for you. I just cant belive that everyone out their fits this Type A profile and would be happy in that environment. Thus, to the great majority of us, well have to make do with what we have. Others have done it and have been quite successful. Bad economy or not. What are your thoughts.

pwyoung
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby pwyoung » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:56 pm

Reading this felt like I was reading a LR question from "Juan" or some other cheesy multi-cultured fake author.

My thoughts? Yeah, there are some exceptions. T14 is just a basic outline you should be shooting for.

Curry

Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby Curry » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:00 pm

drummerboy wrote:It seems that for all intents and purposes, unless you graduate from a T14 or similar, that you shouldnt even bother attending law school. Thus, for the great majority of people out there that dont qualify for T14, your future is dismal. I personally can not believe this is the case. Indeed, practically every attorney I have ever met or have consulted did not graduate from a T14 school. Moreover, they all seem to be successful and suggest that you should try to go to the best school you should get into or at least one in the city you plan on living in. T14 schools they reiterate, opens different doors than than all others. If you want Big Law, and dont mind being number 200 plus on the totem pole, working 18 hour days with little or no recognition, surrounded by cut throat peers overworking for the most billable hours, then T14 maybe for you. I just cant belive that everyone out their fits this Type A profile and would be happy in that environment. Thus, to the great majority of us, well have to make do with what we have. Others have done it and have been quite successful. Bad economy or not. What are your thoughts.


Retake.

canuck
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby canuck » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:23 pm

Curry wrote:
drummerboy wrote:It seems that for all intents and purposes, unless you graduate from a T14 or similar, that you shouldnt even bother attending law school. Thus, for the great majority of people out there that dont qualify for T14, your future is dismal. I personally can not believe this is the case. Indeed, practically every attorney I have ever met or have consulted did not graduate from a T14 school. Moreover, they all seem to be successful and suggest that you should try to go to the best school you should get into or at least one in the city you plan on living in. T14 schools they reiterate, opens different doors than than all others. If you want Big Law, and dont mind being number 200 plus on the totem pole, working 18 hour days with little or no recognition, surrounded by cut throat peers overworking for the most billable hours, then T14 maybe for you. I just cant belive that everyone out their fits this Type A profile and would be happy in that environment. Thus, to the great majority of us, well have to make do with what we have. Others have done it and have been quite successful. Bad economy or not. What are your thoughts.


Retake.


Definitely retake. Don't let a bad LSAT ruin this convoluted question.

drummerboy
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby drummerboy » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:13 pm

Great answers. Thanks.

VTarmyjag
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby VTarmyjag » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:14 pm

.
Last edited by VTarmyjag on Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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IAFG
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby IAFG » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:14 pm

not everyone should be a lawyer.

Curry

Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby Curry » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:16 pm

IAFG wrote:not everyone should be a lawyer.

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Doritos
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby Doritos » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:18 pm

I recommend you talk to recent law grads from schools that are not "T14 or similar" and ask them their thoughts

d34d9823
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby d34d9823 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:19 pm

VTarmyjag wrote:most (practicing) lawyers did not attend a T14 school.

Even more lawyers who are working retail did not attend a T14 school. When you're talking about ability to pay back student loans, stylistic considerations are pretty irrelevant.

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Grizz
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby Grizz » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:23 pm

VTarmyjag wrote:Given the name of this forum, it seems most people here attend, attended, or will attend T14 (or around there) schools. I've been lurking around here for awhile and have noticed that ^^^^perspective is overly prominent here. Given, that perspective is somewhat true; the top paying jobs do come from those big name schools. I'm sure every prospective law applicant has had a dream/aspiration to work in biglaw; however, I feel that potential law students get the wrong impression here. Most people with a J.D. don't work in biglaw and more importantly, most (practicing) lawyers did not attend a T14 school. If you're the type to be discouraged by this type of situation, then law probably isn't for you anyhow. Bottom line: I think too many people are discouraged by the fact they won't attend a big name school simply because Mr. 175, 3.9 says that Mr. 157, 3.5 doesn't really have a shot at success in law.


Too bad biglaw and secondary market midlaw gigs that pay $100k+ are the best way to quickly pay off accumulated law school debt. And in this economy, they can fill their summer classes with qualified T20ish kids.

drummerboy
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby drummerboy » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:26 pm

Excellent replies. Thanks. I do believe that the t14 minus subset are not all losers

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Adjudicator
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby Adjudicator » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:27 pm

Practicing lawyers that you talked to most likely don't have any idea what the market is like for new graduates right now. It's a whole different paradigm. My uncle went to University of North Dakota and is a successful attorney with 30+ years experience. But would it be a good idea to go there today? It was a different time back then.
Last edited by Adjudicator on Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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IAFG
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby IAFG » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:27 pm

drummerboy wrote:Excellent replies. Thanks. I do believe that the t14 minus subset are not all losers

just because you shouldn't be in law school doesn't make you a loser.

Curry

Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby Curry » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:29 pm

IAFG wrote:
drummerboy wrote:Excellent replies. Thanks. I do believe that the t14 minus subset are not all losers

just because you shouldn't be in law school doesn't make you a loser.


IAFG is quickly becoming one of my favorite posters

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IAFG
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby IAFG » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:32 pm

Curry wrote:
IAFG wrote:
drummerboy wrote:Excellent replies. Thanks. I do believe that the t14 minus subset are not all losers

just because you shouldn't be in law school doesn't make you a loser.


IAFG is quickly becoming one of my favorite posters

:oops: <3

d34d9823
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby d34d9823 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:35 pm

drummerboy wrote:Excellent replies. Thanks. I do believe that the t14 minus subset are not all losers

TBH, there are a lot of assholes in T14. This has nothing to do with anyone's worth as a person. It has to do with the realities of the job market.

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rayiner
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby rayiner » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:47 pm

VTarmyjag wrote: Most people with a J.D. don't work in biglaw and more importantly, most (practicing) lawyers did not attend a T14 school. If you're the type to be discouraged by this type of situation, then law probably isn't for you anyhow..


Most people with a JD attended law school when it was drastically cheaper and the legal market was far less saturated. Someone in their mid-30s who graduated Michigan Law (in-state) in the late 1990s paid a total of about $50k in tuition, total. You will pay more than three times as much, over $150k (again, in-state). Someone in their mid-40s who graduated Michigan Law in 1990 (probably a typical attorney you might have talked to) paid $17k in tuition, total. Someone in their mid-50s who graduated Michigan Law in 1980 (probably typical of your parents) paid $5k in tuition. Even adjusted for inflation that is less than $13k today.

So when an experienced attorney tells you that it's fine to go to the local T2, take their advice with a grain of salt, for two reasons.

1) They went to law school in a completely different time (evidenced by the debt numbers above). How on earth do you think they can understand your position when they went to law school at a time when it was a financial commitment akin to buying a Kia, instead of one akin to buying a house?

2) They are the ones that ended up successful -- all those people who went to law school in the '80s and didn't get a good job left the law a long time ago. You never hear from them do you?

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megaTTTron
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby megaTTTron » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:56 pm

rayiner wrote:
VTarmyjag wrote: Most people with a J.D. don't work in biglaw and more importantly, most (practicing) lawyers did not attend a T14 school. If you're the type to be discouraged by this type of situation, then law probably isn't for you anyhow..


Most people with a JD attended law school when it was drastically cheaper and the legal market was far less saturated. Someone in their mid-30s who graduated Michigan Law (in-state) in the late 1990s paid a total of about $50k in tuition, total. You will pay more than three times as much, over $150k (again, in-state). Someone in their mid-40s who graduated Michigan Law in 1990 (probably a typical attorney you might have talked to) paid $17k in tuition, total. Someone in their mid-50s who graduated Michigan Law in 1980 (probably typical of your parents) paid $5k in tuition. Even adjusted for inflation that is less than $13k today.

So when an experienced attorney tells you that it's fine to go to the local T2, take their advice with a grain of salt, for two reasons.

1) They went to law school in a completely different time (evidenced by the debt numbers above). How on earth do you think they can understand your position when they went to law school at a time when it was a financial commitment akin to buying a Kia, instead of one akin to buying a house?

2) They are the ones that ended up successful -- all those people who went to law school in the '80s and didn't get a good job left the law a long time ago. You never hear from them do you?


Brilliant.

drummerboy
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby drummerboy » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:18 pm

Thanks .

Aqualibrium
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby Aqualibrium » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:21 pm

rayiner wrote:
VTarmyjag wrote: Most people with a J.D. don't work in biglaw and more importantly, most (practicing) lawyers did not attend a T14 school. If you're the type to be discouraged by this type of situation, then law probably isn't for you anyhow..


Most people with a JD attended law school when it was drastically cheaper and the legal market was far less saturated. Someone in their mid-30s who graduated Michigan Law (in-state) in the late 1990s paid a total of about $50k in tuition, total. You will pay more than three times as much, over $150k (again, in-state). Someone in their mid-40s who graduated Michigan Law in 1990 (probably a typical attorney you might have talked to) paid $17k in tuition, total. Someone in their mid-50s who graduated Michigan Law in 1980 (probably typical of your parents) paid $5k in tuition. Even adjusted for inflation that is less than $13k today.

So when an experienced attorney tells you that it's fine to go to the local T2, take their advice with a grain of salt, for two reasons.

1) They went to law school in a completely different time (evidenced by the debt numbers above). How on earth do you think they can understand your position when they went to law school at a time when it was a financial commitment akin to buying a Kia, instead of one akin to buying a house?

2) They are the ones that ended up successful -- all those people who went to law school in the '80s and didn't get a good job left the law a long time ago. You never hear from them do you?



This should be stickied.

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TLSanders
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby TLSanders » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:59 am

Everything everyone has said in this thread is true: there are a lot of opportunities for lawyers outside of big law, and a lot of lawyers are very happy and successful in them; law school is expensive and the jobs that will make it a positive financial investment are fewer and further between than they used to be; a lot of law school graduates are doing something else entirely.

All that said, there is one big factor that seems to have been overlooked--big law jobs aren't what they used to be, either. The number of opportunities and the salaries associated with those opportunities are shrinking, and given the shifts in policy by the major corporations that employ many of those firms, it seems likely that shrinkage will continue. A T10 or T14 (or wherever the visionaries have decided the magical line falls today) education is far from a guarantee of big law level money four years from now.

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Grizz
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby Grizz » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:05 am

TLSanders wrote:All that said, there is one big factor that seems to have been overlooked--big law jobs aren't what they used to be, either. The number of opportunities and the salaries associated with those opportunities are shrinking, and given the shifts in policy by the major corporations that employ many of those firms, it seems likely that shrinkage will continue. A T10 or T14 (or wherever the visionaries have decided the magical line falls today) education is far from a guarantee of big law level money four years from now.


Have you been reading TLS lately? No one is arguing against this or overlooking this.

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TLSanders
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby TLSanders » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:13 am

rad law wrote:Have you been reading TLS lately? No one is arguing against this or overlooking this.


In this particular thread, it doesn't seem to be getting factored in. The truth is that there is a very good chance that in a few years when those applying to law school right now are looking for jobs or planning careers, the landscape will be very different even from the one we're looking at today. One significant challenge that many recent/upcoming grads are facing today (perhaps especially at top schools) is that their educations and the efforts of the career planning and placement offices are still heavily focused on jobs that are slowly changing and/or ceasing to exist. It may well be that those whose preparation is geared toward something more realistic will actually have the upper hand by the time current applicants are entering the workforce. I don't have a crystal ball, but the one thing that is clear is that banking on what's happened in the past is not the way to go where the legal profession is concerned.

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Grizz
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Re: A Law Career Outside of T14

Postby Grizz » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:23 am

TLSanders wrote:
rad law wrote:Have you been reading TLS lately? No one is arguing against this or overlooking this.


In this particular thread, it doesn't seem to be getting factored in. The truth is that there is a very good chance that in a few years when those applying to law school right now are looking for jobs or planning careers, the landscape will be very different even from the one we're looking at today. One significant challenge that many recent/upcoming grads are facing today (perhaps especially at top schools) is that their educations and the efforts of the career planning and placement offices are still heavily focused on jobs that are slowly changing and/or ceasing to exist. It may well be that those whose preparation is geared toward something more realistic will actually have the upper hand by the time current applicants are entering the workforce. I don't have a crystal ball, but the one thing that is clear is that banking on what's happened in the past is not the way to go where the legal profession is concerned.


They're heavily focused on biglaw because it's one of the best ways to pay back big debt. And when going to a strong regional (UGA, UF, etc. doesn't guarantee a legal job at all, going to a T14/17/20ish/whatever places you in the best spot to just BE a lawyer).

Furthermore, the landscape is probably not gonna be drastically different in the 6ish months before biglaw recruiting happens for current 1Ls or the year and half before people applying applying today do it.




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