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niederbomb
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby niederbomb » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:58 pm

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Last edited by niederbomb on Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

starbucksjunkie
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby starbucksjunkie » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:01 pm

niederbomb wrote:And if it means anything, I no longer have anything to do with the whole juicy bar scene, even though it's everywhere here. But I have no way to prove it.

So immigrate to friendlier territory with a different cultural attitude?


It doesn't mean anything. Most people that get caught doing something like that swear up and down it was their first time, they didn't mean any harm, won't do it again. Its usually a lie. And unfortunately, the rehabilitation for all types of predators (sexual or otherwise) is almost always unsuccessful. Adcoms, bar administrators, and employers know that past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior.

If law is really something you want to pursue, immigration might be a wise consideration.

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joebloe
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby joebloe » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:01 pm

niederbomb wrote:
originalmutt wrote:You are not the first lawyer to see a hooker, and you certainly won't be the last. The bigger issue is the human trafficking issue.

Again, I'd start volunteering somehow at one of these organizations ASAP. And I'd work my tail off so somebody at one of these orgs can give you a good reference. Maybe you should delay law school a year. Not what you want to hear, but the passage of time does help your cause.

In terms of how the bar examiners will handle it, I can't speak to that. Perhaps you should consult attorneys who represent other attorneys in bar disciplinary matters. They may have some insight.

But I agree with the other posters. Your biggest concern should be getting past the bar, not getting into law school.


The bolded is pretty hard to do when you're on a one-year contract working in Singapore for an anal employer devoted to processing visa applications, many of them from "entertainers" from Thailand. Nobody here gives a shit about human trafficking.

So immigrate?


Consult a lawyer in the States that specializes in bar admissions before you make such a big life choice. I cannot imagine how hiring a sex worker in a country like Japan would keep you from being admitted to the bar. I think some people are unduly pressing the panic button because they heard "human trafficking" and take general offense to the sex industry.

starbucksjunkie
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby starbucksjunkie » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:25 pm

joebloe wrote:
Consult a lawyer in the States that specializes in bar admissions before you make such a big life choice. I cannot imagine how hiring a sex worker in a country like Japan would keep you from being admitted to the bar. I think some people are unduly pressing the panic button because they heard "human trafficking" and take general offense to the sex industry.


He won't get denied admissions to the bar cuz he hired a prostitute. They will see a dishonorable discharge and might get deny him because he was so compelled that he risked his career, military record, health, shot at law school, etc. It shows lack of judgement and self-control. The reality is that we don't live in a world where excuses like "Boys will be boys" and "hookers in 3rd world countries are there because they want to be/made bad decisions/etc."

Most of us have no issue with the sex industry. If a man can't get laid because he has no game, go to Amsterdam or Nevada and be sure you are getting an adult that consents and can actually say no to a customer. Going to Korea/Thailand/Singapore where you know the girl you are buying is likely to be underage and/or in slavery is unacceptable. Ignorance is not a defense. Especially with this guys bullsh** excuses.

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niederbomb
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby niederbomb » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:27 pm

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Last edited by niederbomb on Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:31 am, edited 3 times in total.

originalmutt
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby originalmutt » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:29 pm

niederbomb wrote:P.S: Why does the volunteer work you mention have to be "before" law school and not during?


The longer the record of volunteer work, the more convincing in its sincerity. Future employers/adcomms aren't idiots: they know people volunteer just to get into law school, pass the bar, get a job, etc.

starbucksjunkie
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby starbucksjunkie » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:34 pm

niederbomb wrote:How's this version? It emphasizes the disobedience of orders (the real issue) and not the action itself.

I resigned from the Army after receiving a letter of reprimand for fraternizing with an entertainer at a bar that my unit had placed off-limits for military personnel under U.S. Forces Korea Reg. 27-5 and developing an unauthorized relationship with the woman. In doing so, I violated the direct orders of the 2nd Infantry Division Commander. I was not convicted of breaking any laws; however, I did resign voluntarily in lieu of possible disciplinary actions. I left with a General Discharge “under honorable conditions.”

I realize that my resignation came as a result of a serious mistake. I signed a contract to abide by the Uniformed Code of Military Justice, and, by my actions, I violated my professional obligations to obey my Commander's orders. Through the ordeal of leaving the military and reflections on my actions, however, I have learned the importance of conducting myself more professionally in both my personal and professional capacities. Since leaving the military, I have taken a job at a Chinese nonprofit organization where my conduct has been upright and exemplary as my letter of recommendation demonstrates
.



I dunno. Its almost a lie. Certainly a relevant omission. It wasn't fraternization or a relationship. Money was exchanged. If your actual record or reprimand says it was for fraternization or being in an off-limits bar, it might fly. If your reprimand mentions anything about money being exchanged or purchasing services, I would think you need to disclose more.

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niederbomb
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby niederbomb » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:36 pm

originalmutt wrote:
niederbomb wrote:P.S: Why does the volunteer work you mention have to be "before" law school and not during?


The longer the record of volunteer work, the more convincing in its sincerity. Future employers/adcomms aren't idiots: they know people volunteer just to get into law school, pass the bar, get a job, etc.


Well if it's seriously bad enough that I have to spend 4 years volunteering to maybe/ kind of/ sort of/ convince employers that I'm contrite for them to consider hiring me, then I'll save myself a lot of trouble by immigrating and just dealing with it once -- then never again.

That's all I wanted to know. Thanks!

EDIT: I do my own research. Obviously, I will consult with an immigration attorney in the country in which I plan to attend law school as well as a C&F attorney before I make any drastic, life-altering decisions.
Last edited by niederbomb on Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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joebloe
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby joebloe » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:37 pm

starbucksjunkie wrote:
joebloe wrote:
Consult a lawyer in the States that specializes in bar admissions before you make such a big life choice. I cannot imagine how hiring a sex worker in a country like Japan would keep you from being admitted to the bar. I think some people are unduly pressing the panic button because they heard "human trafficking" and take general offense to the sex industry.


He won't get denied admissions to the bar cuz he hired a prostitute. They will see a dishonorable discharge and might get deny him because he was so compelled that he risked his career, military record, health, shot at law school, etc. It shows lack of judgement and self-control. The reality is that we don't live in a world where excuses like "Boys will be boys" and "hookers in 3rd world countries are there because they want to be/made bad decisions/etc."

Most of us have no issue with the sex industry. If a man can't get laid because he has no game, go to Amsterdam or Nevada and be sure you are getting an adult that consents and can actually say no to a customer. Going to a Korea/Thailand/Singapore where you know the girl you are buying is likely to be underage and/or in slavery is unacceptable. Ignorance is not a defense. Especially with this guys bullsh** excuses.


Bolded made me lol. Please climb down from your ivory tower. And Japan is not a third world country. You are making a very unfortunate and quite frankly offensive overgeneralization of the sex industry in Asia.

He didn't get a dishonorable discharge- read the thread. He got a general discharge, which is one step below an honorable discharge. And I'm not convinced he can't convert that to an honorable discharge.

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niederbomb
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby niederbomb » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:45 pm

I've almost had it with the conflicting advice, arguments, pompous moralizing, and uncertainty in this thread. Thanks to those who actually tried to give good advice though!

Does anyone know of an admissions consultant who I could pay to help me draft a good version of this?

starbucksjunkie
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby starbucksjunkie » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:52 pm

joebloe wrote:
Bolded made me lol. Please climb down from your ivory tower. And Japan is not a third world country. You are making a very unfortunate and quite frankly offensive overgeneralization of the sex industry in Asia.

He didn't get a dishonorable discharge- read the thread. He got a general discharge, which is one step below an honorable discharge. And I'm not convinced he can't convert that to an honorable discharge.


You need to read the thread more carefully. I'm not talking about Japan, but Korea.

niederbomb wrote:Here's a thought:

What if I noted in passing that I was dating this "bar girl"? That way, it doesn't sound quite as bad as if I was just an ordinary whoring American GI.

In the small towns up near the DMZ, there really aren't any other women (even GI's since it's an Infantry Division), we're rarely allowed to go to Seoul, and it's quite common for GI's to develop real relationships with these girls, rescue them from the establishments, and marry them.



Though unfortunate, anything less than an honorable discharge is considered dishonorable to an uninformed citizen.

Also, I have no intention of climbing off of any tower as you put it. Women would still be chattel pimped out by our fathers and brothers if women didn't take stands against this behavior.

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joebloe
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby joebloe » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:57 pm

starbucksjunkie wrote:
joebloe wrote:
Bolded made me lol. Please climb down from your ivory tower. And Japan is not a third world country. You are making a very unfortunate and quite frankly offensive overgeneralization of the sex industry in Asia.

He didn't get a dishonorable discharge- read the thread. He got a general discharge, which is one step below an honorable discharge. And I'm not convinced he can't convert that to an honorable discharge.


You need to read the thread more carefully. I'm not talking about Japan, but Korea.

niederbomb wrote:Here's a thought:

What if I noted in passing that I was dating this "bar girl"? That way, it doesn't sound quite as bad as if I was just an ordinary whoring American GI.

In the small towns up near the DMZ, there really aren't any other women (even GI's since it's an Infantry Division), we're rarely allowed to go to Seoul, and it's quite common for GI's to develop real relationships with these girls, rescue them from the establishments, and marry them.



Though unfortunate, anything less than an honorable discharge is considered dishonorable to an uninformed citizen.

Also, I have no intention of climbing off of any tower as you put it. Women would still be chattel pimped out by our fathers and brothers if women didn't take stands against this behavior.


Why are you talking about Korea? OP's incident took place in Japan.

Why would a state bar be made up of uninformed (or uninformable) people?

I refuse to argue further on the merits of prostitution. You have your unswayable viewpoint, and I have mine.

starbucksjunkie
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby starbucksjunkie » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:59 pm

niederbomb wrote:I've almost had it with the conflicting advice, arguments, pompous moralizing, and uncertainty in this thread. Thanks to those who actually tried to give good advice though!

Does anyone know of an admissions consultant who I could pay to help me draft a good version of this?


I wouldn't lie or omit key info. I would consult someone about passing the bar and not worry about admissions to law school.

Just curious though, was it worth possibly raping a child sex slave that had no choice in the matter? Just cuz you paid for it, doesn't mean it wasn't rape either.

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birdlaw117
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby birdlaw117 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:04 pm

starbucksjunkie wrote:
niederbomb wrote:I've almost had it with the conflicting advice, arguments, pompous moralizing, and uncertainty in this thread. Thanks to those who actually tried to give good advice though!

Does anyone know of an admissions consultant who I could pay to help me draft a good version of this?


I wouldn't lie or omit key info. I would consult someone about passing the bar and not worry about admissions to law school.

Just curious though, was it worth possibly raping a child sex slave that had no choice in the matter? Just cuz you paid for it, doesn't mean it wasn't rape either.

Wow! Really?!

starbucksjunkie
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby starbucksjunkie » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:08 pm

joebloe wrote:
Why are you talking about Korea? OP's incident took place in Japan.

Why would a state bar be made up of uninformed (or uninformable) people?

I refuse to argue further on the merits of prostitution. You have your unswayable viewpoint, and I have mine.


Can you post the quote where he tells us that it took place in Japan? Others mentioned Korea and he referenced Seoul, so I assumed Korea.

I'm didn't say the admissions officials for the state bar are uninformable, but I doubt they would know the nuances of different types of discharge other than honorable/dishonorable and form an negative initial impression that could cost him admittance. How knows? Many they really care and really investigate this stuff. I hope so. This is why I am advising him to run this by the bar before committing him to debt by going to law school.

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niederbomb
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby niederbomb » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:10 pm

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starbucksjunkie
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby starbucksjunkie » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:10 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
starbucksjunkie wrote:
niederbomb wrote:I've almost had it with the conflicting advice, arguments, pompous moralizing, and uncertainty in this thread. Thanks to those who actually tried to give good advice though!

Does anyone know of an admissions consultant who I could pay to help me draft a good version of this?


I wouldn't lie or omit key info. I would consult someone about passing the bar and not worry about admissions to law school.

Just curious though, was it worth possibly raping a child sex slave that had no choice in the matter? Just cuz you paid for it, doesn't mean it wasn't rape either.

Wow! Really?!


Yeah, really. I'm just curious. I understand that I most likely won't get an answer. I just wanna know what people are thinking when they do this stuff and try to justify it. I don't get it.

starbucksjunkie
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby starbucksjunkie » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:13 pm

niederbomb wrote:
I resigned from the Army after receiving a letter of reprimand for paying a bar fine at an off-limits establishment on October 17 2009, contrary to U.S. Forces XXX Reg. 27-5. In doing so, I violated the direct orders of the 2nd Infantry Division Commander. I was not convicted of breaking any laws; however, I did resign voluntarily in lieu of possible disciplinary actions. I left with a General Discharge “under honorable conditions.”

I realize that my resignation came as a result of a serious mistake. I signed a contract to abide by the Uniformed Code of Military Justice, and, by my actions, I violated my professional obligations to obey my Commander's orders. Through the ordeal of leaving the military and reflections on my actions, however, I have learned the importance of conducting myself more professionally in both my personal and professional capacities. Since leaving the military, I have taken a job at a Chinese nonprofit organization where my conduct has been upright and exemplary as my letter of recommendation demonstrates.


I took a look at the regulation itself. The technical term is "bar fine." So any harm in just using the proper terminology without further explanation?


This is fine I think. Anyone that didn't know what was going on could easily search and understand what that problem was.

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masochist
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby masochist » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:16 pm

OP: I think there is a really important detail that you have left out of your proposed addendums and this discussion; how did you get caught?

In general, your vague descriptions pose more questions than they answer. How did your CO find out about this? If this were really your first time, why was this night different than all of the other nights? Do you regret the act itself, or do you just regret your failure to exercise better judgment? Was alcohol a factor? How is it that you were allowed to resign to escape possible punishment? Maybe some of these answers are obvious to those with a military background, but I don't think you can assume that any adcom members will have such a background.

Either disclose the incident and explain it fully and clearly or do not disclose it. Adcom members will not be impressed by obfuscation.

Also, this is a big deal regardless of your views on legalized prostitution. Your experience of trying to convince people on this forum that it is not a big deal should inform your decision about which tactics to take with LS admissions.

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theskippa10
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby theskippa10 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:17 pm

I'm not going to jump into the whole debate, but I'd say " I was discharged..." not "I resigned.."" . Resigned makes it sound like you had a whole lot more choic ein the matter than you did

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niederbomb
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby niederbomb » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:20 pm

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Last edited by niederbomb on Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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theskippa10
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby theskippa10 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:27 pm

That changes the perception completley. As an enlisted man it probably wouldn't be a big deal. As an officer it shows even more lack of judgment. Contact a lawyer who specializes in bar admission stuff.

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joebloe
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby joebloe » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:28 pm

starbucksjunkie wrote:
joebloe wrote:
Why are you talking about Korea? OP's incident took place in Japan.

Why would a state bar be made up of uninformed (or uninformable) people?

I refuse to argue further on the merits of prostitution. You have your unswayable viewpoint, and I have mine.


Can you post the quote where he tells us that it took place in Japan? Others mentioned Korea and he referenced Seoul, so I assumed Korea.

I'm didn't say the admissions officials for the state bar are uninformable, but I doubt they would know the nuances of different types of discharge other than honorable/dishonorable and form an negative initial impression that could cost him admittance. How knows? Many they really care and really investigate this stuff. I hope so. This is why I am advising him to run this by the bar before committing him to debt by going to law school.


I resigned from the Armed Forces after receiving a letter of reprimand for paying a bar fine at an overseas hostess bar in Japan. I purchased a bar girl’s day off on ******* contrary to unit regulations. I was not convicted of breaking any laws; however, I did resign in lieu of possible disciplinary actions. I left with a General Discharge “under honorable conditions.”


Please read about bar admission procedures before you make statements like the bolded. I have read about very very few cases where a bar has permanently denied an application, and almost all of those have been where the applicant willfully committed some form of fraud directly in connection with the path to becoming a lawyer. The few others I recall involve execution-style murders and Matthew Hale.

OP definitely needs to consult a lawyer, but I don't understand why he's throwing in the towel WRT practicing in the US, unless he actually doesn't want to practice in the US.

mala2
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby mala2 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:29 pm

[/quote] Consult a lawyer in the States that specializes in bar admissions before you make such a big life choice. I cannot imagine how hiring a sex worker in a country like Japan would keep you from being admitted to the bar. I think some people are unduly pressing the panic button because they heard "human trafficking" and take general offense to the sex industry.[/quote]

agree, they admitted a murderer here in Arizona. Attitudes are different around the world, and in my opinion there's nothing wrong with a woman choosing to make money that way, I don't see how it's that different than staying in an unhappy marriage. The thing that is annoying about your attitude (in my opinion and maybe in the opinion of admins) is that you come off as super self righteous and arrogant which is not a trait that is likable. No sh*t everyone else has done bad stuff and no one is Jesus Christ, and clearly it's awful to blow up civilians, but that doesn't mean that what you do wrong is justified. Sorry to pull out the mom card but 2 wrongs don't make a right.

mala2
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Re: Hooker Addendum Military people please help!!!

Postby mala2 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:32 pm

Voyager wrote:look: only disclose EXACTLY what you were ultimately found guilty of and discharged for.

Also, which service dishonorable discharged you for that? Marine Corp sure as hell wouldn't. I mean, military guy hires prostitute? Oh the horror. You must be the only dude ever to get discharged for that. Seriously. The entire economy of the Phillipines was supported in the 1980s and 90s by Navy and Marine bar tabs like that.

I imagine there is probably a LOT more to this story, but we'll just leave that there. Won't even speculate, although I have some guesses.

EDIT: Wait, this was a violation of a local unit order? Holy shit your CO is crazy. I get banning the hiring of prostitutes, but there a ton of ways to handle that short of bringing you up on charges.


haha yeah, sounds like he just had an uptight crazy CO who was a Mormon or a Southern Baptist or something. I'm guessing OP's generally lack of respect for rules he doesn't like and arrogant attitude really helped diffuse the situation too.




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