Is Law School a Losing Game?

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:09 am

JG Hall wrote:I actually don't think the problem is with the TTTs in themselves, but the misunderstanding as to for what they're there. I have some friends who are going to the local TTT and just want to come back home and make what most would scoff at here but in a place where the CoL is dirt cheap and anything six figures makes on upper middle class and pretty comfortable. That's fine. Great, perhaps, because that's the school at its. It's people who have some great expectations of graduation from shitlawschool that create the problem. Lower expectations, and make people really understand what they're getting into, before you start axing schools in general. (Although if you are going to start getting rid of law schools, I'd start in California.)


The problem is...

Some TTT's charge T14 price while having the average salary top off around ~40k.

Seriously, you can make that in retail with whatever bachelors after working there for 3 years with the effort that you'd put into law school. Oh, and you make money while doing it.

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JG Hall
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby JG Hall » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:12 am

ResolutePear wrote:
JG Hall wrote:I actually don't think the problem is with the TTTs in themselves, but the misunderstanding as to for what they're there. I have some friends who are going to the local TTT and just want to come back home and make what most would scoff at here but in a place where the CoL is dirt cheap and anything six figures makes on upper middle class and pretty comfortable. That's fine. Great, perhaps, because that's the school at its. It's people who have some great expectations of graduation from shitlawschool that create the problem. Lower expectations, and make people really understand what they're getting into, before you start axing schools in general. (Although if you are going to start getting rid of law schools, I'd start in California.)


The problem is...

Some TTT's charge T14 price while having the average salary top off around ~40k.

Seriously, you can make that in retail with whatever bachelors after working there for 3 years with the effort that you'd put into law school. Oh, and you make money while doing it.

Meh one should not attend TTT private schools. TTT in-state seems a bit more tolerable though.

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glitched
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby glitched » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:12 am

man... that guy really should have retook.

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kk19131
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby kk19131 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:13 am

Ragged wrote:
If things were as doom and gloom as people on here think there wouldn't be so many people still going to law school.



I think you underestimate just how little most people actually know about law schools and employment prospects.

TLS represents a very small percentage of law school students. It's amazing how many people will attend a tier 4 school at sticker just to call themselves lawyers.

plum
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby plum » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:15 am

kk19131 wrote:It's amazing how many people will attend a tier 4 school at sticker just to call themselves lawyers.

this.
i'm sure we could find many such people among our facebook friends. i sincerely feel bad for them.

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JaLeCa
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby JaLeCa » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:17 am

kk19131 wrote:
Ragged wrote:
If things were as doom and gloom as people on here think there wouldn't be so many people still going to law school.



I think you underestimate just how little most people actually know about law schools and employment prospects.

TLS represents a very small percentage of law school students. It's amazing how many people will attend a tier 4 school at sticker just to call themselves lawyers.


This is one of the major problems here. People want to call themselves lawyers without even researching

rundoxierun
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:17 am

JG Hall wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
JG Hall wrote:I actually don't think the problem is with the TTTs in themselves, but the misunderstanding as to for what they're there. I have some friends who are going to the local TTT and just want to come back home and make what most would scoff at here but in a place where the CoL is dirt cheap and anything six figures makes on upper middle class and pretty comfortable. That's fine. Great, perhaps, because that's the school at its. It's people who have some great expectations of graduation from shitlawschool that create the problem. Lower expectations, and make people really understand what they're getting into, before you start axing schools in general. (Although if you are going to start getting rid of law schools, I'd start in California.)


The problem is...

Some TTT's charge T14 price while having the average salary top off around ~40k.

Seriously, you can make that in retail with whatever bachelors after working there for 3 years with the effort that you'd put into law school. Oh, and you make money while doing it.

Meh one should not attend TTT private schools. TTT in-state seems a bit more tolerable though.


Actually, if things continue on the current path the difference between private and in-state wont be something that really matters. Sure, you might save but you will still be in relatively huge debt either way Due to funding cuts, many schools get so little of their budget from state funding that they may as well be private schools. We will soon be at the point where in-state at even cheap TTT state schools will be upwards of or approaching 20k/yr.

MrAnon
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby MrAnon » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:17 am

If things were as doom and gloom as people on here think there wouldn't be so many people still going to law school.



People bought real estate like mad in spring and summer of 2008. So because so many people were doing it, it should have worked out fine.

The shitlaw trajectory is very off. Many people in shitlaw drop out of the program completely, or at least they used to, when you could get a job in real estate or teaching with much greater ease. That takes some pressure off crowding at the senior levels. Shitlaw business is crim law, family law, real estate transactions. These are one off transactions- a divorce, an arrest, a closing - and there is no real line of business. Getting business as a shitlaw type might be bringing in an auto accident from someone you know or a family members. How often does that really happen?

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98234872348
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby 98234872348 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:19 am

plum wrote:
kk19131 wrote:It's amazing how many people will attend a tier 4 school at sticker just to call themselves lawyers.

this.
i'm sure we could find many such people among our facebook friends. i sincerely feel bad for them.

Also agree: I've talked to people at Coastal, it's pretty sad.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:21 am

tkgrrett wrote:
JG Hall wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
JG Hall wrote:I actually don't think the problem is with the TTTs in themselves, but the misunderstanding as to for what they're there. I have some friends who are going to the local TTT and just want to come back home and make what most would scoff at here but in a place where the CoL is dirt cheap and anything six figures makes on upper middle class and pretty comfortable. That's fine. Great, perhaps, because that's the school at its. It's people who have some great expectations of graduation from shitlawschool that create the problem. Lower expectations, and make people really understand what they're getting into, before you start axing schools in general. (Although if you are going to start getting rid of law schools, I'd start in California.)


The problem is...

Some TTT's charge T14 price while having the average salary top off around ~40k.

Seriously, you can make that in retail with whatever bachelors after working there for 3 years with the effort that you'd put into law school. Oh, and you make money while doing it.

Meh one should not attend TTT private schools. TTT in-state seems a bit more tolerable though.


Actually, if things continue on the current path the difference between private and in-state wont be something that really matters. Sure, you might save but you will still be in relatively huge debt either way Due to funding cuts, many schools get so little of their budget from state funding that they may as well be private schools. We will soon be at the point where in-state at even cheap TTT state schools will be upwards of or approaching 20k/yr.


FIU - a state TTT in Miami FL costs ~35k in total tuition. If you just need to sit for the bar, it's a steal.

A bit more, you can get UF at ~40k. If you're the first generation of college grads in your family, you get around 20k, IIRC, in scholarships.

rundoxierun
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:29 am

ResolutePear wrote:
FIU - a state TTT in Miami FL costs ~35k in total tuition. If you just need to sit for the bar, it's a steal.

A bit more, you can get UF at ~40k. If you're the first generation of college grads in your family, you get around 20k, IIRC, in scholarships.


FIU site lists 2010-11 full-time tuition at 15k. Taking into account increases, you are looking at ~50k if you enter in 2011-2012. If the budget cuts and price increases continue that amount will be at 60k very soon. Sticker could very easily put you into 6 figures with the other fees/expenses included.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:31 am

tkgrrett wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
FIU - a state TTT in Miami FL costs ~35k in total tuition. If you just need to sit for the bar, it's a steal.

A bit more, you can get UF at ~40k. If you're the first generation of college grads in your family, you get around 20k, IIRC, in scholarships.


FIU site lists 2010-11 full-time tuition at 15k. Taking into account increases, you are looking at ~50k if you enter in 2011-2012. If the budget cuts and price increases continue that amount will be at 60k very soon. Sticker could very easily put you into 6 figures with the other fees/expenses included.

Well sue me - I didn't look at the new tuition prices. But compared to 40k/yr for Coastal or Ave Maria, seems like TCR. Hell, you can probably put Miami on there, too.

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98234872348
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby 98234872348 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:32 am

ResolutePear wrote: FIU - a state TTT in Miami FL costs ~35k in total tuition. If you just need to sit for the bar, it's a steal.

A bit more, you can get UF at ~40k. If you're the first generation of college grads in your family, you get around 20k, IIRC, in scholarships.

UF's tuition is going up 15% every year indefinitely. Next year it will be 19k for tuition alone... :|

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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Patriot1208 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:41 am

NoJob wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
NoJob wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:So guys, let me get this straight:

You guys want a 100% employment rate when the nation's hovering over a 10% unemployment average?


The rate for people with bachelor's and higher is much lower, i.e. 4-5%. Law school grads are a clear aberration from that stat.


Actually, the unemployment rate for those with bachelors in their twenties is about 9%


Not according to the report on NPR last night when the new jobless numbers came out.

Even at that rate, lawyers are still disproportionately unemployed or underemployed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/14/opini ... ml?_r=2&hp

the unemployment rate for college grads under age 25 has averaged 9.2 percent

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:43 am

mistergoft wrote:
ResolutePear wrote: FIU - a state TTT in Miami FL costs ~35k in total tuition. If you just need to sit for the bar, it's a steal.

A bit more, you can get UF at ~40k. If you're the first generation of college grads in your family, you get around 20k, IIRC, in scholarships.

UF's tuition is going up 15% every year indefinitely. Next year it will be 19k for tuition alone... :|


Well, better jump on the bandwagon :P

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emhellmer
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby emhellmer » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:48 am

swfangirl wrote:Before y'all dismiss this because the main person discussed in the article went to a T4 school, consider this:

Jason Bohn is earning $33 an hour as a legal temp while strapped to more than $200,000 in loans, a sizable chunk of which he accumulated during his time at Columbia University, where he finished both a J.D. and a master’s degree.


Someone on another thread pointed out that they new of two Cooley grads who had just started at a firm at $35,000 a year. I take away from this that both Ivies and TTTT loosers still have to convince someone to hire them at the end of the day. The Cooley grads seem to have better prospects for upward mobility though. Unless the Columbia grad drops the entitlement and sweet talks (butt kissing and networking) one of his temporary bosses into bringing him on fool time. That's how most of the proletariat got their start.

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98234872348
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby 98234872348 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:52 am

ResolutePear wrote:
mistergoft wrote:
ResolutePear wrote: FIU - a state TTT in Miami FL costs ~35k in total tuition. If you just need to sit for the bar, it's a steal.

A bit more, you can get UF at ~40k. If you're the first generation of college grads in your family, you get around 20k, IIRC, in scholarships.

UF's tuition is going up 15% every year indefinitely. Next year it will be 19k for tuition alone... :|


Well, better jump on the bandwagon :P

Fortunately for me next year is my last.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:55 am

emhellmer wrote:
swfangirl wrote:Before y'all dismiss this because the main person discussed in the article went to a T4 school, consider this:

Jason Bohn is earning $33 an hour as a legal temp while strapped to more than $200,000 in loans, a sizable chunk of which he accumulated during his time at Columbia University, where he finished both a J.D. and a master’s degree.


Someone on another thread pointed out that they new of two Cooley grads who had just started at a firm at $35,000 a year. I take away from this that both Ivies and TTTT loosers still have to convince someone to hire them at the end of the day. The Cooley grads seem to have better prospects for upward mobility though. Unless the Columbia grad drops the entitlement and sweet talks (butt kissing and networking) one of his temporary bosses into bringing him on fool time. That's how most of the proletariat got their start.


If I ended up in a TTT, I'd become a slip-and-fall ambulance chaser.

Oh, and I'd totally be into fat chicks, too.

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emhellmer
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby emhellmer » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:59 am

NoJob wrote:
theantiscalia wrote:Part of me is very upset with law schools like Thomas Jefferson for misleading people into a lifetime of debt servitude. But an even larger - and slightly cynical - part of me thinks these kids got what they deserved. A basic Google search - five minutes worth of research - would have alerted them of the questionable value of a law degree. These aren't idiots that need to be protected by society... they have a college degree.

I do feel sorry for people who make smart decisions (good law school, with a scholarship, living a spartan lifestyle) and then find themselves in over their head. But to me, attending one of these schools is rarely a smart decision.


I think the schools need to be policed. I can easily see a 0L relying on them to tell the truth about their employment data. If some company tried to massage the numbers this way to its shareholders, there would be a shareholder class action coming at them.


If a person with a BA doesn't know how to read between the lines on the employment data reported by law schools, they need to be reserving at least part of their wrath for their alma mater. There is no excuse for an educated person to think "99% employed nine months after graduation, median starting at $70,000. Wow. Guess I've done all the digging I need to do!" Just ridiculous.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:01 am

emhellmer wrote:
NoJob wrote:
theantiscalia wrote:Part of me is very upset with law schools like Thomas Jefferson for misleading people into a lifetime of debt servitude. But an even larger - and slightly cynical - part of me thinks these kids got what they deserved. A basic Google search - five minutes worth of research - would have alerted them of the questionable value of a law degree. These aren't idiots that need to be protected by society... they have a college degree.

I do feel sorry for people who make smart decisions (good law school, with a scholarship, living a spartan lifestyle) and then find themselves in over their head. But to me, attending one of these schools is rarely a smart decision.


I think the schools need to be policed. I can easily see a 0L relying on them to tell the truth about their employment data. If some company tried to massage the numbers this way to its shareholders, there would be a shareholder class action coming at them.


If a person with a BA doesn't know how to read between the lines on the employment data reported by law schools, they need to be reserving at least part of their wrath for their alma mater. There is no excuse for an educated person to think "99% employed nine months after graduation, median starting at $70,000. Wow. Guess I've done all the digging I need to do!" Just ridiculous.


http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/ paints a really nice picture, especially for Northwestern and UF.

lackadaisy
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby lackadaisy » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:20 am

The average law student is the type of person who thinks you win an argument by being passionate or by being forceful rather than having evidence, a logical argument or facts.


Maybe that's the problem right there... too many gullible applicants.

I'm disappointed that they didn't talk about more of the HYS graduates who realized their earning potential would be lower in small firm jobs (paying 40k-60k) than if they'd stuck with the jobs they could have gotten with their BA credentials. I'm currently a "0L" (might be applying for class of 2015 or 2016 but definitely not this year) college senior at Harvard and know several HLS students who complain that on-campus recruiting isn't nearly what you'd hope for; many of them simply won't get jobs that pay highly enough to make law school a good choice for them, taking both debt and opportunity cost into consideration.

Obviously there's evidence elsewhere on this forum for that claim, so I won't go into it more -- but in a nutshell, the article is missing a major point, which is that law school may be a bad deal not only for people who can't get into good schools, but also for those who can, but could also have done as well elsewhere (taking debt & three years time into consideration).

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JazzOne
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby JazzOne » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:25 am

lackadaisy wrote:
The average law student is the type of person who thinks you win an argument by being passionate or by being forceful rather than having evidence, a logical argument or facts.


Maybe that's the problem right there... too many gullible applicants.

I'm disappointed that they didn't talk about more of the HYS graduates who realized their earning potential would be lower in small firm jobs (paying 40k-60k) than if they'd stuck with the jobs they could have gotten with their BA credentials. I'm currently a "0L" (might be applying for class of 2015 or 2016 but definitely not this year) college senior at Harvard and know several HLS students who complain that on-campus recruiting isn't nearly what you'd hope for; many of them simply won't get jobs that pay highly enough to make law school a good choice for them, taking both debt and opportunity cost into consideration.

Obviously there's evidence elsewhere on this forum for that claim, so I won't go into it more -- but in a nutshell, the article is missing a major point, which is that law school may be a bad deal not only for people who can't get into good schools, but also for those who can, but could also have done as well elsewhere (taking debt & three years time into consideration).

+1

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jenesaislaw
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby jenesaislaw » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:25 am

emhellmer wrote:If a person with a BA doesn't know how to read between the lines on the employment data reported by law schools, they need to be reserving at least part of their wrath for their alma mater. There is no excuse for an educated person to think "99% employed nine months after graduation, median starting at $70,000. Wow. Guess I've done all the digging I need to do!" Just ridiculous.


Is it really ridiculous to expect that schools tell you the truth? It makes sense to trust the institutions you're going to pay to be educate you. It's what should be expected.

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rman1201
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby rman1201 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:29 am

lackadaisy wrote:Obviously there's evidence elsewhere on this forum for that claim, so I won't go into it more -- but in a nutshell, the article is missing a major point, which is that law school may be a bad deal not only for people who can't get into good schools, but also for those who can, but could also have done as well elsewhere (taking debt & three years time into consideration).


Or maybe the problem is too many people attending law school for purely financial expectations and not because they actually like law. If you can get into HYS and aren't sure because you might be able to make more elsewhere you shouldn't be a lawyer.

nickm100
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby nickm100 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:32 am

ResolutePear wrote:
emhellmer wrote:
NoJob wrote:
theantiscalia wrote:Part of me is very upset with law schools like Thomas Jefferson for misleading people into a lifetime of debt servitude. But an even larger - and slightly cynical - part of me thinks these kids got what they deserved. A basic Google search - five minutes worth of research - would have alerted them of the questionable value of a law degree. These aren't idiots that need to be protected by society... they have a college degree.

I do feel sorry for people who make smart decisions (good law school, with a scholarship, living a spartan lifestyle) and then find themselves in over their head. But to me, attending one of these schools is rarely a smart decision.


I think the schools need to be policed. I can easily see a 0L relying on them to tell the truth about their employment data. If some company tried to massage the numbers this way to its shareholders, there would be a shareholder class action coming at them.


If a person with a BA doesn't know how to read between the lines on the employment data reported by law schools, they need to be reserving at least part of their wrath for their alma mater. There is no excuse for an educated person to think "99% employed nine months after graduation, median starting at $70,000. Wow. Guess I've done all the digging I need to do!" Just ridiculous.


http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/ paints a really nice picture, especially for Northwestern and UF.


Here in lies why even the best informed students cannot be wholly blamed for thinking they are making a reasonable investment in law school. Consider where the information for lawschooltransparency.com's analysis of all but a couple of schools is coming from, US News and World Report. The analysis of data from such a dubious source is pointless and to an extent falsely assures well intentioned prospective students that they are making a sound decision. Law schools ought to be forced to provide real data, accounting for every graduate, consisting of salary, market, position, firm/company/government agency/non-profit, and levels of debt their students take on in an anonymous, graph or list based fashion. Put this information out there in a Department of Education report, the agency ultimately allowing the ABA to accredited schools, and let prospective students suffer the consequences or reap the rewards. No more of employment figures that appear simple but are calculated like this:

------------
Key Facts:

* The U.S. News nine-month employment rate does not reflect the percentage of the class employed at nine months. It is a figure computed by a formula:
Employment Rate =
graduates known to be employed OR enrolled in FT degree program + 25% of graduates whose employment status is unknown
_________________________________________________________
total graduates – graduates who are unemployed and not seeking work

* This formula makes it difficult to deduce the exact percentage of the class whose salaries are known.

Assumptions Required to Make These Charts:

* ALL graduates' employment statuses are known.
* NO gradautes are enrolled in a full-time degree program.
* NO graduates are unemployed and not seeking work.
* ALL graduates work full-time positions.

These assumptions may be true for some schools, but the charts that appear on this webpage may display better-than-actual outcomes. For example, if a school could not determine the employment status of 10% of the class for a given year, it is possible that the unemployed figure is 2.5% higher than displayed on this chart. Based on data provided in LSAC's Official Guide, this can be extremely problematic at certain law schools. As such, we are working with U.S. News to correct how they publish the information. If U.S. News makes the changes we've suggested, we could relax most of these assumptions and substitute genuine employment data.

(taken from Law School Transparency's "key facts and assumptions" and found at lawschooltransparency.com )




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