Is Law School a Losing Game?

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NoJob
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby NoJob » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:12 am

Patriot1208 wrote:
NoJob wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:So guys, let me get this straight:

You guys want a 100% employment rate when the nation's hovering over a 10% unemployment average?


The rate for people with bachelor's and higher is much lower, i.e. 4-5%. Law school grads are a clear aberration from that stat.


Actually, the unemployment rate for those with bachelors in their twenties is about 9%


Not according to the report on NPR last night when the new jobless numbers came out.

Even at that rate, lawyers are still disproportionately unemployed or underemployed.

thegor1987
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby thegor1987 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:13 am

I still don't understand though, isn't the ABA completely disconnected from law schools. The article talks about how there is that resistance from those who benefit from the diploma mills but I don't get how it influence ABA. ABA doesn't benefit

NoJob
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby NoJob » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:15 am

thegor1987 wrote:
ScottRiqui wrote:This part made my heart drop into my stomach (if I end up going to law school, I'll be 47 when I graduate):

Most of us either went to the wrong law school, which is the bottom two-thirds, or we were too old when we graduated,” he said. “I was 32 when I graduated, and at 32 you’re washed up in this field, in terms of a shot at the real deal. They perceived me as somebody they can’t indoctrinate into slave labor and work to death for seven years and then release if they don’t like you.

Unfortunately, we don't learn anything about the quoted lawyer in the article except that he's managing a temporary legal service, so I guess I can hold out hope that his age wasn't his only problem.


Be careful when reading opinions. Especially when it is online and you can't see the big pussy that's saying it. Just form your own opinion on such a matter.

Burt Rutan is 67 and is about to create the biggest explosion in space travel advancement we have ever seen. Through his imagination, work, and sheer genius about 100,000 civialians will see space by 2020 (and that's not including his competition!).

At 32 you not washed up in any field


True, but, limiting the discussion to biglaw, I can think of older people from my class who were on law review and who had good grades who lost out on biglaw from a T20.

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kk19131
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby kk19131 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:16 am

I'm bothered that so many people on here are so easily willing to take out $150,000 in loans.

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JazzOne
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby JazzOne » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:20 am

NoJob wrote:
thegor1987 wrote:
ScottRiqui wrote:This part made my heart drop into my stomach (if I end up going to law school, I'll be 47 when I graduate):

Most of us either went to the wrong law school, which is the bottom two-thirds, or we were too old when we graduated,” he said. “I was 32 when I graduated, and at 32 you’re washed up in this field, in terms of a shot at the real deal. They perceived me as somebody they can’t indoctrinate into slave labor and work to death for seven years and then release if they don’t like you.

Unfortunately, we don't learn anything about the quoted lawyer in the article except that he's managing a temporary legal service, so I guess I can hold out hope that his age wasn't his only problem.


Be careful when reading opinions. Especially when it is online and you can't see the big pussy that's saying it. Just form your own opinion on such a matter.

Burt Rutan is 67 and is about to create the biggest explosion in space travel advancement we have ever seen. Through his imagination, work, and sheer genius about 100,000 civialians will see space by 2020 (and that's not including his competition!).

At 32 you not washed up in any field


True, but, limiting the discussion to biglaw, I can think of older people from my class who were on law review and who had good grades who lost out on biglaw from a T20.

I agree with you, but my evidence is all anecdotal.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:23 am

kk19131 wrote:I'm bothered that so many people on here are so easily willing to take out $150,000 in loans.


It's an investment, in my opinion.

If I'm expected to make a million dollars without a law degree..

or perhaps 3-4 times more with a law degree..

that 150k is a drop in a bucket.

thegor1987
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby thegor1987 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:28 am

NoJob wrote:
thegor1987 wrote:
ScottRiqui wrote:This part made my heart drop into my stomach (if I end up going to law school, I'll be 47 when I graduate):

Most of us either went to the wrong law school, which is the bottom two-thirds, or we were too old when we graduated,” he said. “I was 32 when I graduated, and at 32 you’re washed up in this field, in terms of a shot at the real deal. They perceived me as somebody they can’t indoctrinate into slave labor and work to death for seven years and then release if they don’t like you.

Unfortunately, we don't learn anything about the quoted lawyer in the article except that he's managing a temporary legal service, so I guess I can hold out hope that his age wasn't his only problem.


Be careful when reading opinions. Especially when it is online and you can't see the big pussy that's saying it. Just form your own opinion on such a matter.

Burt Rutan is 67 and is about to create the biggest explosion in space travel advancement we have ever seen. Through his imagination, work, and sheer genius about 100,000 civialians will see space by 2020 (and that's not including his competition!).

At 32 you not washed up in any field


True, but, limiting the discussion to biglaw, I can think of older people from my class who were on law review and who had good grades who lost out on biglaw from a T20.


Doubt age was the factor they missed out on big law
Last edited by thegor1987 on Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

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kk19131
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby kk19131 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:28 am

ResolutePear wrote:
kk19131 wrote:I'm bothered that so many people on here are so easily willing to take out $150,000 in loans.


It's an investment, in my opinion.

If I'm expected to make a million dollars without a law degree..

or perhaps 3-4 times more with a law degree..

that 150k is a drop in a bucket.



It's more like a gamble.

And, even if you manage to land that 150k+ job ITE, it would still take you years to pay off such high debt.

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Kabuo
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Kabuo » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:29 am

Does anyone else see an ad for Thomas Jefferson Law School at the bottom of the page? I guess they're of the "any publicity is good publicity" school of thought.

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JG Hall
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby JG Hall » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:30 am

kk19131 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
kk19131 wrote:I'm bothered that so many people on here are so easily willing to take out $150,000 in loans.


It's an investment, in my opinion.

If I'm expected to make a million dollars without a law degree..

or perhaps 3-4 times more with a law degree..

that 150k is a drop in a bucket.



It's more like a gamble.

And, even if you manage to land that 150k+ job ITE, it would still take you years to pay off such high debt.

4 or 5, depending on you bonus structure and CoL/QoL. Seems doable at the moment.

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98234872348
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby 98234872348 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:30 am

kk19131 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
kk19131 wrote:I'm bothered that so many people on here are so easily willing to take out $150,000 in loans.


It's an investment, in my opinion.

If I'm expected to make a million dollars without a law degree..

or perhaps 3-4 times more with a law degree..

that 150k is a drop in a bucket.



It's more like a gamble.

And, even if you manage to land that 150k+ job ITE, it would still take you years to pay off such high debt.

Why does everyone on TLS assume that if you don't make 150k/year out of school, you're doomed? If I have to work my way to 150k, I am fine with that...

also: gotta spend money to make money, baby!

I am taking out substantially less than 150k in loans

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JazzOne
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby JazzOne » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:32 am

It's easy to make biglaw right?

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kk19131
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby kk19131 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:33 am

mistergoft wrote:
kk19131 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
kk19131 wrote:I'm bothered that so many people on here are so easily willing to take out $150,000 in loans.


It's an investment, in my opinion.

If I'm expected to make a million dollars without a law degree..

or perhaps 3-4 times more with a law degree..

that 150k is a drop in a bucket.



It's more like a gamble.

And, even if you manage to land that 150k+ job ITE, it would still take you years to pay off such high debt.

Why does everyone on TLS assume that if you don't make 150k/year out of school, you're doomed? If I have to work my way to 150k, I am fine with that...

also: gotta spend money to make money, baby!

I am taking out substantially less than 150k in loans



If you start off making 50k per year, then that 150k in loans is even more ridiculous.

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kk19131
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby kk19131 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:33 am

JazzOne wrote:It's easy to make biglaw right?



Unless you go to one of the 95% of scam law schools in the country. :lol:

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:35 am

kk19131 wrote:
mistergoft wrote:
kk19131 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:It's an investment, in my opinion.

If I'm expected to make a million dollars without a law degree..

or perhaps 3-4 times more with a law degree..

that 150k is a drop in a bucket.



It's more like a gamble.

And, even if you manage to land that 150k+ job ITE, it would still take you years to pay off such high debt.

Why does everyone on TLS assume that if you don't make 150k/year out of school, you're doomed? If I have to work my way to 150k, I am fine with that...

also: gotta spend money to make money, baby!

I am taking out substantially less than 150k in loans



If you start off making 50k per year, then that 150k in loans is even more ridiculous.


IBR + LRAP.

If you fail to pick a school with a good LRAP, you should just bend over and take it every night when you come home from the office.

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98234872348
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby 98234872348 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:40 am

kk19131 wrote:If you start off making 50k per year, then that 150k in loans is even more ridiculous.

I don't think anyone goes to law school shooting for this, but I don't think you're doomed making 50k out of school when you'll likely have to opportunity to lateral to a job making 75/80k after 3 years, with the potential to earn more as you continue your career.

plum
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby plum » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:42 am

i am taking out 150k of loans for a T10. as a splitter i don't think i would be getting any full-rides to a T50 or so school, and so i'd probably have some debt either way which would take me multiple years to pay off. i think the debt issue is more problematic if you are debating between doing law or not doing law. but once you make the decision to go into the legal field and decide that's what you want to do with your life then it seems more justifiable to take out those loans. of course it is extremely stressful knowing that i have to do well in school otherwise risk being an indentured servant etc., but ITE everything is stressful....any job i would have gotten had i not gone to law school would have been unstable, never knowing when you'd be laid off or when your job might become unnecessary etc. So it's not like the alternative was that much more appealing to me. I think all of this went into justifying the obscene loan in my mind...but maybe I'm just as much as an idiot as the guy in the article.

jasonc.
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby jasonc. » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:44 am

what level of debt is everyone comfortable with?

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JG Hall
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby JG Hall » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:45 am

jasonc. wrote:what level of debt is everyone comfortable with?

back to this again...

rundoxierun
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:53 am

The first thing that really shocked me when I started looking at law schools was just how shockingly not intelligent the average law student was. Like most people, I came into my search thinking that everyone who goes to law school is pretty smart and that the vast majority of lawyers made 6 figures within 6 or 7 years of graduation. It really surprised me how bad the situation actually was for graduates of non-top schools and how misinformed I was.

The crazy thing is, I have friends now thinking about tier 3 and 4 law schools and the information I have come across is pretty useless in informing them. They refuse to believe that most lawyers dont make bank and pretty much dismiss whatever I say with "stop being an asshole... not everyone wants to/can get Harvard Law". To make matters worse, none of them are exceptionally smart or hard-working but I know there are plenty of schools still willing to take their aid checks. Unfortunately, the average law student just isnt very good at listening to reasoning or analyzing data. The average law student is the type of person who thinks you win an argument by being passionate or by being forceful rather than having evidence, a logical argument or facts.

Short of regulating class sizes or cutting the number of schools, there is simply no action the ABA could take to fix anything. The average law student is going to go anyway because they "know a guy who went to *random tier 4* and drives a bentley". The reason this is all becoming such a huge problem now is that the cost of law school has gotten to a point that makes failure near catastrophic. Personally, I think 125k+ debt is extremely scary even for HYS. Unfortunately, I dont think any schools are serious about cost control right now. It may be best for the ABA and government to work in concert to create a set of standards that would limit federal funds for schools that meet the standards(similar to the proposals presented on for-profit education).

rundoxierun
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:56 am

jasonc. wrote:what level of debt is everyone comfortable with?


Well thats not the question.. the question is what level of debt are you comfortable with for a given set(?) of job prospects

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Ragged
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Ragged » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:59 am

mistergoft wrote:
kk19131 wrote:If you start off making 50k per year, then that 150k in loans is even more ridiculous.

I don't think anyone goes to law school shooting for this, but I don't think you're doomed making 50k out of school when you'll likely have to opportunity to lateral to a job making 75/80k after 3 years, with the potential to earn more as you continue your career.


I'm a 0L but I tend to also think that the future for those who don't make BigLaw as grimm as TLS believes. I'm sure you can work for shitlaw and after some years building a client list and creating a reputation for yourself you can either make partner or open your own practice and still make a decent living.

If things were as doom and gloom as people on here think there wouldn't be so many people still going to law school.

plum
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby plum » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:03 am

Ragged wrote:If things were as doom and gloom as people on here think there wouldn't be so many people still going to law school.

that's assuming we're actually rational

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JG Hall
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby JG Hall » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:06 am

I actually don't think the problem is with the TTTs in themselves, but the misunderstanding as to for what they're there. I have some friends who are going to the local TTT and just want to come back home and make what most would scoff at here but in a place where the CoL is dirt cheap and anything six figures makes on upper middle class and pretty comfortable. That's fine. Great, perhaps, because that's the school at its. It's people who have some great expectations of graduation from shitlawschool that create the problem. Lower expectations, and make people really understand what they're getting into, before you start axing schools in general. (Although if you are going to start getting rid of law schools, I'd start in California.)

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kk19131
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby kk19131 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:09 am

tkgrrett wrote:The first thing that really shocked me when I started looking at law schools was just how shockingly not intelligent the average law student was. Like most people, I came into my search thinking that everyone who goes to law school is pretty smart and that the vast majority of lawyers made 6 figures within 6 or 7 years of graduation. It really surprised me how bad the situation actually was for graduates of non-top schools and how misinformed I was.

The crazy thing is, I have friends now thinking about tier 3 and 4 law schools and the information I have come across is pretty useless in informing them. They refuse to believe that most lawyers dont make bank and pretty much dismiss whatever I say with "stop being an asshole... not everyone wants to/can get Harvard Law". To make matters worse, none of them are exceptionally smart or hard-working but I know there are plenty of schools still willing to take their aid checks. Unfortunately, the average law student just isnt very good at listening to reasoning or analyzing data. The average law student is the type of person who thinks you win an argument by being passionate or by being forceful rather than having evidence, a logical argument or facts.

Short of regulating class sizes or cutting the number of schools, there is simply no action the ABA could take to fix anything. The average law student is going to go anyway because they "know a guy who went to *random tier 4* and drives a bentley". The reason this is all becoming such a huge problem now is that the cost of law school has gotten to a point that makes failure near catastrophic. Personally, I think 125k+ debt is extremely scary even for HYS. Unfortunately, I dont think any schools are serious about cost control right now. It may be best for the ABA and government to work in concert to create a set of standards that would limit federal funds for schools that meet the standards(similar to the proposals presented on for-profit education).


:idea:




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