Is Law School a Losing Game?

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby DoubleChecks » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:55 pm

Bronte wrote:
ISTAND wrote:Did you even read the article? It clearly states he got his JD from Florida and his school loans from undergrad and his masters.

"Jason Bohn, who received his J.D. from the University of Florida, is earning $33 an hour as a legal temp while strapped to more than $200,000 in loans, nearly all of which he accumulated as an undergraduate and while working on a master's degree at Columbia University."


sundance95 wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:i could be wrong, but i think they edited the original article because it was misleading and there were some complaints all around

You're not wrong.


Maybe I'm missing something, but what are you guys talking about? The original article did not state that Bohn when to UF. That's the entire genesis of the controversy. See:

NYT wrote:This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: January 11, 2011

An earlier version of this article misstated the educational history of Jason Bohn, a recent law school graduate. While Mr. Bohn took classes at Columbia Law School, his law degree is from the University of Florida. And while nearly all of his student loan debt was accumulated at Columbia University, it was incurred while he was an undergraduate and while working on a master’s degree, and not at Columbia Law.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html, scroll down.

Also see: http://abovethelaw.com/2011/01/a-notabl ... aw-school/


uh, im even more confused now bronte. let me recap what went down so far from my point of view:

hazel eyes says bohn's linkedln is misleading...how he did not graduate from columbia law and how the article is misleading

istand asks if hazel even read the article, since the article says bohn received his JD from UF

now this was because the original article was misleading and made it seem as if he graduated from CLS (the links and controversy you reference)...so it was edited. hazel saw original, istand saw edited...which led to my comment on how i thought that it was cause they edited the original to reflect reality.

sundance confirms my comment.

then your comment lol. sundance and i never said the original article said bohn went to UF. in fact, we said the opposite.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:21 am

This thread has nothing more to contribute to my life.

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robotclubmember
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby robotclubmember » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:04 am

lol

jaestro
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby jaestro » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:20 am

I feel like if things remain the same in twenty years, we need to be giving our children better advice. First, only be willing to take out loans (if at all) at their final academic institution. It is crazy if people have to take out loans for college, then a masters program, and then law school (unless you decide you want to stay in school your whole life, finish with fifteen degrees and laugh at the loan agencies). I think the SAT, LSAT or whatever is exponentially more important than what it once was, and good parents should let their kids in high school ditch class for months at a time to study for the SAT.

Further,I think we need a new poll that states how many former prospective lawyers are brushing up on their biology? My brother is a doctor, and I am beginning to feel like an idiot. Sure, his loans may have been bigger, and he looked like an old man when he was in school. But after all of his BS, he is guaranteed a job anywhere in the country, and can change jobs whenever he wants. He does still work a decent amount of hours, but the stress has to be much less. It is truly a job where all you have to do is be smart and study, pass and be rewarded for life.

The good news, quoting from that documentary on the CA bar, is that law is the only profession where the pessimists out perform the optimists. So maybe all of us doubters are actually pursuing the right profession?

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gwuorbust
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby gwuorbust » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:36 am

ResolutePear wrote:This thread has nothing more to contribute to my life.

NoJob
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby NoJob » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:54 pm

Miracle wrote:I do have a question.

If students from T-14 not all, but most or some score these summer associates jobs that pay $3000-3500 a week(if it's true that summer associates earn that much), why aren't these bright young individuals living in accordance with student conditions, and instead of doing "whatever" with their money pay down their debt? Something isn't right here! :oops:



Very few actually make that much. Especially now.


I know T14 who did shitlaw jobs and volunteering to avoid the resume gap last summer.

NoJob
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby NoJob » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:59 pm

robotclubmember wrote:
theghostofDrewTate wrote:
Miracle wrote:GULC is misrepresenting its employment statistics?


I wouldn't say they are - they are probably within the guidelines when they report. However, I would guess that if you went up and down the hundreds of graduates per year they are churning out and ask if they think they are in the type of job they thought they would be in after graduation, a decent percentage would report back with a "no." The classes there are huge and being below median is not a good place to be coming out of there from what I have heard.


"Within guidelines" doesn't mean it isn't misrepresented when the guidelines are as weak as they are. Counting people who have a 6-week temp job looking at admissions applications as "employed" seems like misrepresentation to me.



Amen especially if they give them that job for that purpose. Not outright but suspect.

NoJob
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby NoJob » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:02 pm

bk1 wrote:
Miracle wrote:Cardozo was just an example. Albany as a TTT $100,000+ . The numbers just don't add up. I'm sorry


You think that less than 9% of their grads who graduated in 2008 making over $100k doesn't add up?


Surprisingly high in my opinion.

dabears1
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby dabears1 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:32 pm

My company just hired a T2 law grad as a marketing compliance assistant.... prob 35k/year.

Wow, options must not be too "plentiful" out there.

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NCtoDC
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby NCtoDC » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:46 pm

http://thebellyofthebeast.wordpress.com/2011/01/12/law-school-deception/

The latest ramblings concerning the NYT article.

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AreJay711
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby AreJay711 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:48 pm

jaestro wrote:I feel like if things remain the same in twenty years, we need to be giving our children better advice. First, only be willing to take out loans (if at all) at their final academic institution. It is crazy if people have to take out loans for college, then a masters program, and then law school (unless you decide you want to stay in school your whole life, finish with fifteen degrees and laugh at the loan agencies). I think the SAT, LSAT or whatever is exponentially more important than what it once was, and good parents should let their kids in high school ditch class for months at a time to study for the SAT.

Further,I think we need a new poll that states how many former prospective lawyers are brushing up on their biology? My brother is a doctor, and I am beginning to feel like an idiot. Sure, his loans may have been bigger, and he looked like an old man when he was in school. But after all of his BS, he is guaranteed a job anywhere in the country, and can change jobs whenever he wants. He does still work a decent amount of hours, but the stress has to be much less. It is truly a job where all you have to do is be smart and study, pass and be rewarded for life.

The good news, quoting from that documentary on the CA bar, is that law is the only profession where the pessimists out perform the optimists. So maybe all of us doubters are actually pursuing the right profession?


I don't think the choice between being a doctor and lawyer is there for most people and if it is then you are probably perusing both for the wrong reasons. I think the real fallout is that many people were blinded (by themselves) to believe that practicing law is a sure way to a big paycheck. In reality, especially ITE, it is not. Once you consider debt, law isn't much better than other fields really since any field (including those that don't even need college degrees) can lead big money for people who excel at what they do, which is necessary as a law student and associate to make big money in law.

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JazzOne
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby JazzOne » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:37 pm

dabears1 wrote:My company just hired a T2 law grad as a marketing compliance assistant.... prob 35k/year.

Wow, options must not be too "plentiful" out there.

He's lucky.

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txadv11
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby txadv11 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:21 pm

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1. Enroll in classes (I guess I'm gonna be accepted despite applying there)
2. Pay 30,000 total for the four year program
3. Increase my "e-rep"
4. Be $170,000+, less in debt that the people in the article.
5. Profit

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HarlandBassett
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby HarlandBassett » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:54 pm

ResolutePear wrote:This thread has nothing more to contribute to my life.

.

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Borhas
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Borhas » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:57 pm

amonynous_ivdinidual wrote:the comment about closing law schools/limiting enrollments would run afoul of antitrust laws caught my attention. why is it ok for the AMA to regulate med schools in this way, but the ABA would be precluded by antitrust rules? sounds fishy to me. the ABA should restore some prestige and integrity to its profession, and here is step 1- take the bottom 50 law schools (by whatever metric the ABA wants to use) out back and shoot them. then tell law schools 101-150 that it's open season on them. after a 5-10 year period the top 25 performers of these schools (again, pick your metric, but i say LEGITIMATE job reports for grads are a good start) will be allowed to remain open.

then, strictly limit the numbers of students law schools can enroll, not unlike the approach the AMA takes.

the profession could survive on 125 law schools.

let's step outside the box of supply/demand and fix what's obviously broken. we do it all the time, and the market endures, so please don't warn me of the imminent demise of the free market if these measures were taken. i don't really care. i'd rather have a job.


while I admire your direct approach, it's probably easier to reform financial aid so that some schools don't get to have their students' loans subsidized. That would probably avoid the anti-trust issues too (though WTF do I know...)

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MrSparkle
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby MrSparkle » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:16 pm

Article from 2007: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1190407 ... op_emailed

Essentially the same picture

ATR
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ATR » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:51 am

MrSparkle wrote:Article from 2007: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1190407 ... op_emailed

Essentially the same picture

And that was before the financial markets meltdown in '08.

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txadv11
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby txadv11 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:42 pm


theregulator
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby theregulator » Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:04 pm


Correction: January 16, 2011


An article last Sunday about law schools misstated the educational history of Jason Bohn, a recent law school graduate.While Mr. Bohn took classes at Columbia Law School, his law degree is from the University of Florida. And while nearly all of his student loan debt was accumulated at Columbia University, it was incurred while he was an undergraduate and while working on a master’s degree, and not at Columbia Law.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby HarlandBassett » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:06 pm

Debt-Laden Law Grad Featured in NYT Article on Perils of Law School Suspected of Murder

http://abovethelaw.com/2012/06/debt-lad ... of-murder/

SchopenhauerFTW
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby SchopenhauerFTW » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:12 pm

HarlandBassett wrote:Debt-Laden Law Grad Featured in NYT Article on Perils of Law School Suspected of Murder

http://abovethelaw.com/2012/06/debt-lad ... of-murder/
Holy shit.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby HarlandBassett » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:08 pm

SchopenhauerFTW wrote:
HarlandBassett wrote:Debt-Laden Law Grad Featured in NYT Article on Perils of Law School Suspected of Murder

http://abovethelaw.com/2012/06/debt-lad ... of-murder/
Holy shit.

Image

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piccolittle
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby piccolittle » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:22 pm

SchopenhauerFTW wrote:
HarlandBassett wrote:Debt-Laden Law Grad Featured in NYT Article on Perils of Law School Suspected of Murder

http://abovethelaw.com/2012/06/debt-lad ... of-murder/
Holy shit.

Wait, are we sure this is the same guy? Couldn't there be multiple Jason Bohns in the same city? If it's not him, I feel pretty bad for the guy - now he'll pretty much never get a non-contract attorney job.

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jas1503
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby jas1503 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:59 pm

Jason Bohn's story is such a depressing one. His linkedin is even worse, especially since I'd give my left testis right now for his SIPA Masters from Columbia.

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Ohiobumpkin
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Ohiobumpkin » Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:26 am

NYT wrote:Instead, Mr. Wallerstein rented a spacious apartment. He also spent a month studying in the South of France and a month in Prague — all on borrowed money. There were cost-of-living loans, and tuition of about $33,000 a year. Later came a $15,000 loan to cover months of studying for the bar.

Today, his best guess is that he should be sending $2,000 to $3,000 a month in total, to lenders that include Wells Fargo, Citibank and Sallie Mae.

“There are a bunch of others,” he says. “I’m not really good at keeping records.”

Mr. Wallerstein didn’t know it at the time, but Thomas Jefferson leads the nation’s law schools in at least one category: 95 percent of students graduate with debt, the highest rate in the U.S. News rankings.

The reason, Ms. Kransberger says, is that many Thomas Jefferson students are either immigrants or, like Mr. Wallerstein, the first person in their family to get a law degree; statistically those are both groups with generally little or modest means. When Ms. Kransberger meets applicants engaged in what she calls “magical thinking” about their finances, she advises them to defer for a year or two until they are on stronger footing.


Idiot. I don't know what to say other than this example is the utter extreme case.




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