Is Law School a Losing Game?

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HarlandBassett
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby HarlandBassett » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:10 pm

mpj_3050 wrote:I went through the ABA law school guide and you could easily close down the underperforming privates in crowded markets. Western New England, New York Law School, and Thomas Jefferson? It is absolutely insane that they can get away with charging what they do. When I went through the list you could close down at least 50 private schools and be fine. The biglaw firms are not going to even let me mop the floors so I can hardly be called an elitist, but it is downright suicidal to take out 200k or even 100k for the Dominos Pizza School of Law.


reminds me of a blog post i read
http://bexhuff.com/2007/12/the-game-is-rigged

"people with street smarts are more likely to cash in on the rigged system, instead of fixing it... especially on Wall Street. The term there is IBGYBG: I'll Be Gone, You'll Be Gone. Find the scam, don't rock the boat, cash in, and leave... this gave us the tech boom, Enron, insurance broker scams, the Housing bubble, etc..."

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joemoviebuff
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby joemoviebuff » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:16 pm

Mr. Bohn,

I think it's really cool you named your dog Kaiser Soze.

-joemoviebuff

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HarlandBassett
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby HarlandBassett » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:21 pm

jjb2101 wrote:Finally, in response to the New York Times article, a number of individuals facing similar hardships sent supportive messages. I am happy I could serve as a voice for those who overcame tremendous obstacles and did everything they were suppose to do (including not taking out loans to fund European adventures), but who still find themselves swimming in debt.


lol Wallerstein :lol:

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Bronte
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Bronte » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:26 pm

@jjb2101/John Bohn:

Sounds like you've overcome a lot of obstacles. I'm sorry for the spectacle being made of you. However, wouldn't you agree that it should be clear from where you earned your JD and how you incurred your debt?

rundoxierun
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby rundoxierun » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:43 pm

jjb2101 wrote:
Finally, in response to the New York Times article, a number of individuals facing similar hardships sent supportive messages. I am happy I could serve as a voice for those who overcame tremendous obstacles and did everything they were suppose to do (including not taking out loans to fund European adventures), but who still find themselves swimming in debt.


Mr. Bohn you seem to be a shining example of overcoming obstacles but dont think taking out six-figure debt for undergrad and a non-professional masters degree may have been a mistake that could be seen as irresponsible?? I think you couldve bent your message a bit to reflect the fact that taking out that kind of debt for those degrees is a terrible idea. Not saying there arent some graduates of elite law schools struggling under immense debt but your situation does not reflect that. It wasnt law school that made it up the bulk of your debt, it was the Columbia degrees.

plum
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby plum » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:44 pm

Sinra wrote:Look, I feel like they could have easily proven the point and could have found T14 graduates with the same problem as the other gentleman, Wallerstein. But they used someone that did not fit the story they were trying to tell.

this. if my math is correct, then 25% of all people who attend a T-14 end up in the bottom 25% of their class. why not just interview them.

rundoxierun
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby rundoxierun » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:50 pm

plum wrote:
Sinra wrote:Look, I feel like they could have easily proven the point and could have found T14 graduates with the same problem as the other gentleman, Wallerstein. But they used someone that did not fit the story they were trying to tell.

this. if my math is correct, then 25% of all people who attend a T-14 end up in the bottom 25% of their class. why not just interview them.


b/c real life doesnt work like TLS OCI stats paint it. Missing out at OCI ≠ all destitute like TLS makes it out. Some are definitely screwed but the majority of them arent.

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invisiblesun
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby invisiblesun » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:33 am

tkgrrett wrote:
plum wrote:
Sinra wrote:Look, I feel like they could have easily proven the point and could have found T14 graduates with the same problem as the other gentleman, Wallerstein. But they used someone that did not fit the story they were trying to tell.

this. if my math is correct, then 25% of all people who attend a T-14 end up in the bottom 25% of their class. why not just interview them.


b/c real life doesnt work like TLS OCI stats paint it. Missing out at OCI ≠ all destitute like TLS makes it out. Some are definitely screwed but the majority of them arent.


+1, simply saying "This poor T14 graduate actually had to hustle and send out resumes on his own instead of getting offers through OCI" wouldn't have quite the effect

MrAnon
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby MrAnon » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:40 am

It may have something to do with the fact that bottom of the class T14ers have more respect for themselves than to make an appearance in a paper read by millions and act completely naive about the world

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joebloe
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby joebloe » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:43 am

<insert negative comment about going to law school made in the hopes of discouraging my competition from even applying to my target schools here>

Miracle
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Miracle » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:50 am

I do have a question.

If students from T-14 not all, but most or some score these summer associates jobs that pay $3000-3500 a week(if it's true that summer associates earn that much), why aren't these bright young individuals living in accordance with student conditions, and instead of doing "whatever" with their money pay down their debt? Something isn't right here! :oops:

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ResolutePear » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:52 am

Miracle wrote:I do have a question.

If students from T-14 not all, but most or some score these summer associates jobs that pay $3000-3500 a week(if it's true that summer associates earn that much), why aren't these bright young individuals living in accordance with student conditions, and instead of doing "whatever" with their money pay down their debt? Something isn't right here! :oops:


Well gee, you better write to the NYT about this.

Miracle
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Miracle » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:55 am

ResolutePear wrote:
Miracle wrote:I do have a question.

If students from T-14 not all, but most or some score these summer associates jobs that pay $3000-3500 a week(if it's true that summer associates earn that much), why aren't these bright young individuals living in accordance with student conditions, and instead of doing "whatever" with their money pay down their debt? Something isn't right here! :oops:


Well gee, you better write to the NYT about this.


I'm being serious? What do people do with that kind of money. If you make $3,000 a week that's $12,000 a month, and $36,000 in three month.

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invisiblesun
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby invisiblesun » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:55 am

Miracle wrote:I do have a question.

If students from T-14 not all, but most or some score these summer associates jobs that pay $3000-3500 a week(if it's true that summer associates earn that much), why aren't these bright young individuals living in accordance with student conditions, and instead of doing "whatever" with their money pay down their debt? Something isn't right here! :oops:


Those who are scoring the SA positions are unlikely to be the ones who need help paying down their debt in the long run...

Miracle
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Miracle » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:56 am

invisiblesun wrote:
Miracle wrote:I do have a question.

If students from T-14 not all, but most or some score these summer associates jobs that pay $3000-3500 a week(if it's true that summer associates earn that much), why aren't these bright young individuals living in accordance with student conditions, and instead of doing "whatever" with their money pay down their debt? Something isn't right here! :oops:


Those who are scoring the SA positions are unlikely to be the ones who need help paying down their debt in the long run...


Why is that? Now you're confusing me even more?

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AreJay711
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby AreJay711 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:56 am

Miracle wrote:I do have a question.

If students from T-14 not all, but most or some score these summer associates jobs that pay $3000-3500 a week(if it's true that summer associates earn that much), why aren't these bright young individuals living in accordance with student conditions, and instead of doing "whatever" with their money pay down their debt? Something isn't right here! :oops:


I think paying down the debt is dumb use of the money. The increased liquidity going to that last year is well worth the little bit of interest. If it takes you a few months after a no offer to find a job you would likely appreciate the extra cash.

Miracle
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Miracle » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:58 am

AreJay711 wrote:
Miracle wrote:I do have a question.

If students from T-14 not all, but most or some score these summer associates jobs that pay $3000-3500 a week(if it's true that summer associates earn that much), why aren't these bright young individuals living in accordance with student conditions, and instead of doing "whatever" with their money pay down their debt? Something isn't right here! :oops:


I think paying down the debt is dumb use of the money. The increased liquidity going to that last year is well worth the little bit of interest. If it takes you a few months after a no offer to find a job you would likely appreciate the extra cash.


extra cash? 30,000+ to you is extra cash? People work whole year for that, some even almost two years...that's more than extra cash!

rundoxierun
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby rundoxierun » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:58 am

Miracle wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Miracle wrote:I do have a question.

If students from T-14 not all, but most or some score these summer associates jobs that pay $3000-3500 a week(if it's true that summer associates earn that much), why aren't these bright young individuals living in accordance with student conditions, and instead of doing "whatever" with their money pay down their debt? Something isn't right here! :oops:


Well gee, you better write to the NYT about this.


I'm being serious? What do people do with that kind of money. If you make $3,000 a week that's $12,000 a month, and $36,000 in three month.

3,000 for 10 wks but you have expenses. Expensive housing, taxes and you need to buy a few threads. At the end of the day you might have 15k to contribute to debt. At 7.5% interest with 140k already accumulated in loans most of that would just cover interest. The 30k SA might lead to a reduction of your principal of like 5k if you attempted to pay down debt.

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invisiblesun
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby invisiblesun » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:01 am

Miracle wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:
Miracle wrote:I do have a question.

If students from T-14 not all, but most or some score these summer associates jobs that pay $3000-3500 a week(if it's true that summer associates earn that much), why aren't these bright young individuals living in accordance with student conditions, and instead of doing "whatever" with their money pay down their debt? Something isn't right here! :oops:


I think paying down the debt is dumb use of the money. The increased liquidity going to that last year is well worth the little bit of interest. If it takes you a few months after a no offer to find a job you would likely appreciate the extra cash.


extra cash? 30,000+ to you is extra cash? People work whole year for that, some even almost two years...that's more than extra cash!


he means extra cash for costs involved with moving out of law school, putting a down payment on a new place or a car, etc.

Miracle wrote:Why is that? Now you're confusing me even more?


bc those who get SA positions almost always get job offers

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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Miracle » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:02 am

tkgrrett wrote:
Miracle wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Miracle wrote:I do have a question.

If students from T-14 not all, but most or some score these summer associates jobs that pay $3000-3500 a week(if it's true that summer associates earn that much), why aren't these bright young individuals living in accordance with student conditions, and instead of doing "whatever" with their money pay down their debt? Something isn't right here! :oops:


Well gee, you better write to the NYT about this.


I'm being serious? What do people do with that kind of money. If you make $3,000 a week that's $12,000 a month, and $36,000 in three month.

3,000 for 10 wks but you have expenses. Expensive housing, taxes and you need to buy a few threads. At the end of the day you might have 15k to contribute to debt. At 7.5% interest with 140k already accumulated in loans most of that would just cover interest. The 30k SA might lead to a reduction of your principal of like 5k if you attempted to pay down debt.


$30,000+ over the period of 3 months is a lot! What kind of expenses could you possibly have to blow away 15K? A Mercedes payment? :wink:

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AreJay711
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby AreJay711 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:07 am

Miracle wrote:$30,000+ over the period of 3 months is a lot! What kind of expenses could you possibly have to blow away 15K? A Mercedes payment? :wink:

Or covering your loan payments and other expenses for a few months while you look for a job. Even if you are almost always offered a job at graduation, it can only help just in case. Holding it a year would only cost you the price of interest.

rundoxierun
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby rundoxierun » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:07 am

Miracle wrote:
tkgrrett wrote: 3,000 for 10 wks but you have expenses. Expensive housing, taxes and you need to buy a few threads. At the end of the day you might have 15k to contribute to debt. At 7.5% interest with 140k already accumulated in loans most of that would just cover interest. The 30k SA might lead to a reduction of your principal of like 5k if you attempted to pay down debt.


$30,000+ over the period of 3 months is a lot! What kind of expenses could you possibly have to blow away 15K? A Mercedes payment? :wink:


Fed/local taxes takes away 6-8k depending on location.. that leaves 22-24k. 3 months rent at say a relatively cheap $1100/month. You now have 18-21k left. Add in food, clothing, entertainment, plane tickets and bamm. 15k or less left.

jjohn4
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby jjohn4 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:16 am

Torn...trying to decide if it really worth it.













Jason John Gambrills, MD

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Bronte
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Bronte » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:18 am

Miracle, you might need to brush up a little bit on some personal finance. Those who land biglaw SAs are, as others have said, not typically the at-risk debtors (although, permanent offers aren't as forthcoming as they once were). When you have a lot of debt, it very well might be more reasonable to keep $15,000-30,000 liquid until your financial position is more secure.

As others have said, making the transition from law school into permanent employment can require significant cash. You're saying, "What would you need with $15k?" That's not the right question. If you don't need it a few months after graduation, then you can use it to pay down principal. The point is that if you sink it straight into principal after 2L summer, you may end up cash-strapped during the transition (e.g., if you need to start a new job search and make loan payments during that time, which might be over $2000 a month; if you need to make a down payment; if you need to buy formal clothing, which might cost a thousand dollars or more; if you need to buy a vehicle).

Does that make sense?

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JazzOne
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby JazzOne » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:29 am

jjohn4 wrote:Torn...trying to decide if it really worth it.

Jason John Gambrills, MD

OMG!!!! You've done it! Why doesn't this Bohn fellow just go to medical school? Problem solved, right there.
Last edited by JazzOne on Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:36 am, edited 3 times in total.




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