Is Law School a Losing Game?

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HarlandBassett
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby HarlandBassett » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:20 pm

Miracle wrote:He is attending NYU-maybe he's not dumb after all.

Even as a 0L, I know NYU LLM program is not that selective.

Didnt someone tell this guy that a NYU LLM in tax will not make up for a non top14 JD ITE?

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Unitas
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Unitas » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:20 pm

Miracle wrote:
fundamentallybroken wrote:
HarlandBassett wrote:
Unitas wrote:What the hell is this:


http://www.columbia.edu/cu/gssc/faces/bohn-jason.shtml

The many faces seems about right for this guy. It appears like he took a few legal classes while at Columbia and said he attended columbia law which isn't true.

So this guy went to Columbia undergrad, Columbia grad school, UoF Law on a full scholarship, took some courses at Columbia Law, and now doing his NYU LLM in tax c/o 2012. He's all over the place with his career trajectory.


He's also bitching about being 200k+ in debt. How the hell did he get into law any school being that dumb?


He is attending NYU-maybe he's not dumb after all.


Attending NYU for a LLM in taxes.... Why, just why? Also the international business thing from Columbia Grad School, what is he a degree collector? It seems this guy doesn't know what he wants or how to go about getting it. Now complaining to a reporter about it isn't the answer.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:21 pm

If you can't do it with CCN, chances are you can't do it with YHS.

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gwuorbust
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby gwuorbust » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:55 pm

ResolutePear wrote:If you can't do it with CCN, chances are you can't do it with YHS.


one's skillzzs come into play. and someone w/o *any* skillzzzs is going to fucked regardless of where they go.

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ggocat
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ggocat » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:45 pm

NZA wrote:
lawschooliseasy wrote:
Miracle wrote:In case you didn't know about it, there is one started by some Vandy people.
http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/[/quote

According to Lawschooltransparency, if you graduate within 75th percentile of Cardozo you earn 160,000? That doesn't seem accurate.


Agreed. The Lawschooltransparency data may be more accurate that what the schools themselves advertise, but its way too optimistic to be correct.


Data are self-reported for LST, correct? That would already throw some strange bias in there, probably even more than regular rankings/statistics, since those that would go out of their way to report are more likely to be making tons of skrillah.

All salary data collected by any organization will be "self-reported."

rundoxierun
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby rundoxierun » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:02 pm

lawschooliseasy wrote:
Miracle wrote:In case you didn't know about it, there is one started by some Vandy people.
http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/[/quote

According to Lawschooltransparency, if you graduate within 75th percentile of Cardozo you earn 160,000? That doesn't seem accurate.


Agreed. The Lawschooltransparency data may be more accurate that what the schools themselves advertise, but its way too optimistic to be correct.


The data I looked at looked completely accurate. I even hand verified a couple using lists of employers from a couple of schools. Maybe you guys are just misinterpreting the data.

Miracle
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Miracle » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:25 am

tkgrrett wrote:
lawschooliseasy wrote:
Miracle wrote:In case you didn't know about it, there is one started by some Vandy people.
http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/[/quote

According to Lawschooltransparency, if you graduate within 75th percentile of Cardozo you earn 160,000? That doesn't seem accurate.


Agreed. The Lawschooltransparency data may be more accurate that what the schools themselves advertise, but its way too optimistic to be correct.


The data I looked at looked completely accurate. I even hand verified a couple using lists of employers from a couple of schools. Maybe you guys are just misinterpreting the data.


Why is it always our fault? :cry:

Aqualibrium
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Aqualibrium » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:33 am

tkgrrett wrote:
lawschooliseasy wrote:
Miracle wrote:In case you didn't know about it, there is one started by some Vandy people.
http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/[/quote

According to Lawschooltransparency, if you graduate within 75th percentile of Cardozo you earn 160,000? That doesn't seem accurate.


Agreed. The Lawschooltransparency data may be more accurate that what the schools themselves advertise, but its way too optimistic to be correct.


The data I looked at looked completely accurate. I even hand verified a couple using lists of employers from a couple of schools. Maybe you guys are just misinterpreting the data.


Yeah, don't see how its at all overly optimistic to think that during the boom times when large New York firms had SA classes in the 100's, 20 or so percent of Cardozo's 363 students got big law jobs.

I saw an old legal magazine the other day. It was from 2006. In it, some major big law firm, I can't remember which, listed every single summer associate it hired for permanent positions in all offices and what school they went to. There were well over 200 people on that list.

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observationalist
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby observationalist » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:50 am

Miracle wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:
lawschooliseasy wrote:
Miracle wrote:In case you didn't know about it, there is one started by some Vandy people.
http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/[/quote

According to Lawschooltransparency, if you graduate within 75th percentile of Cardozo you earn 160,000? That doesn't seem accurate.


Agreed. The Lawschooltransparency data may be more accurate that what the schools themselves advertise, but its way too optimistic to be correct.


The data I looked at looked completely accurate. I even hand verified a couple using lists of employers from a couple of schools. Maybe you guys are just misinterpreting the data.


Why is it always our fault? :cry:


There has been a lot of confusion about what the Data Clearinghouse represents, but to clarify your points:

-all data pulls from what was reported to USNews. We have asked schools to voluntarily disclose far more useful employment data (including the names and cities for every employer, as well as whether a JD or bar passage was required), but only a few schools have either agreed to do so or are in the practice of disclosing employer lists. All we did was break down the numbers so that you can see how unrepresentative the median reported salaries are.
-the graphic at the top is the biggest takeaway; you can see just what percentage of the class is actually represented in the law school's salary information. For some schools, the median salary actually only represents 10-15% of the class. We see these schools as some of the worst offenders, although there are plenty of other ways in which law schools can mislead prospectives.
-since the data relies on what was submitted to USNews, there's no way to verify its accuracy. If schools did choose to disclose employer lists, it would be relatively easy to let the public monitor the data. We've heard from a lot of graduates who think they were counted unfairly in their law school's reported info, but they have no way of knowing for sure.

Our goal (and what we are asking accepted students to do) is to convince law schools that they need to disclose all of the non-private info they collect from their graduates. This would cut down on the ability to fool applicants who see six-figure starting salaries for half the class and assume that's a safe bet, when in reality the six-figures are only for 10% of the class, creating odds that are probably not worth paying full tuition. Some people will still make bad decisions, but the rest would want to see more value added to a degree program (or reduced tuition) before attending law school.

I think the NYT piece was a great look at some of the underlying problems facing legal education, but we're hopeful they will write again on the topic and flesh out some of the issues. Like many people have said, it would definitely help to focus more on human interest stories where the unemployed graduate actually deserves the reader's empathy.

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Ragged
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Ragged » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:57 am

This article made Yahoo! headline today. Hopefuly more people see it.

FiveSermon
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby FiveSermon » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:11 am

Saw this on yahoo today. Didn't finish it yet but seems like it confirms most of what I've been reading on TLS...

FiveSermon
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby FiveSermon » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:31 am

Jason Bohn the guy that the NYT article cites as having gone to Columbia undergrad/Law school actually only went to Columbia for undergrad, then went to Florida for law school.

He then came back go Columbia for a masters and claims to have taken some law classes while doing his masters.

The article totally misrepresents him.

Edit: His credentials.

Columbia University School of Law

2008 – 2009

Top grades in "Insurance Law" and "Business Law." Selected to serve as Research Associate to Jagdish Bhagwati, Professor of Law & Economics. Researched the economic efficacy of American immigration law since 1986. Analyzed the prospects for a United Nations migrant worker taxation program to fund (1) the cost incurred by a destination country to provide social services to immigrants and (2) infrastructure development in the source country to reduce the need to migrate in the first place.

Columbia University - School of International and Public Affairs

Master of International Affairs, (Finance & Human Rights)

2009

Top grades in "Emerging Financial Markets," "Honors Research: Economics of Immigration Law & Policy," "Latin American Courts: Law & Politics," and "Managing the Global Corporation."

Activities and Societies: Received a half tuition SIPA departmental research assistantship.

University of Florida - Fredric G. Levin College of Law

Juris Doctor

2009

Top grades in "Appellate Advocacy" and "Advanced Legal Research."

Activities and Societies: Journal of Law & Public Policy; Represented School in ABA Tax Challenge; Teaching Assistant for Legal Research & Writing; Florida Law Fellow (full-tuition).

kpuc
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby kpuc » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:26 am

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 18446.html

This article is about a Northwestern student. It's not Columbia, but it's T-14.

09042014
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:30 am

~30% of Columbia strikes out at OCI. There are unemployed Columbia grads.

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Patriot1208
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Patriot1208 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:33 am

Desert Fox wrote:~30% of Columbia strikes out at OCI. There are unemployed Columbia grads.


I'd imagine most of those that strike out at OCI can find gainful employment.

09042014
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:37 am

Patriot1208 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:~30% of Columbia strikes out at OCI. There are unemployed Columbia grads.


I'd imagine most of those that strike out at OCI can find gainful employment.


Eventually? Yes.

At good jobs that pay enough to pay off loans? No.

There are Uchi grads doing temp doc review in Chicago at this very moment.

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Patriot1208
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Patriot1208 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:38 am

Desert Fox wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:~30% of Columbia strikes out at OCI. There are unemployed Columbia grads.


I'd imagine most of those that strike out at OCI can find gainful employment.


Eventually? Yes.

At good jobs that pay enough to pay off loans? No.

There are Uchi grads doing temp doc review in Chicago at this very moment.


Ya, I just meant that it's unlikely they are unemployed. But, sure, they may be in shit jobs.

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robotclubmember
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby robotclubmember » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:41 am

You can find Michael Wallerstein on Facebook pretty easily: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=33700187

I like the way he lists his current job as "Attorney at Attorney." Sounds like a good gig he's got there. I actually sent him a message because I was curious if the NYT really represented him accurately or not, and if he really expected taxpayers to bail him out. He said that he really is the way he comes off in the article, but it doesn't mean he's a tool. He just has a positive outlook.

:?

If his plan really is to just never repay his debts, ultimately, when his student loans default it will be the rest of us that pay for it. Whether it's increased interest rates to compensate for default risk, or money coming from gov't coffers to cover the default, he's made it clear he doesn't want to pay so everyone else will. I mean, his loans are a drop in the bucket of the financial systems. One drop never blamed itself for the flood, but every drop matters, doesn't it? I wish I shared his "positive attitude," which really just seems like a convenient facade for his attitude of entitlement.

He is the least sympathetic poster boy that could have been selected for what is, in actuality, a serious problem in the legal profession. The NYT wrote a good piece, but by writing about Wallerstein, it kind of undermines the point that many students are legitimately mislead by data that is borderline fiction, and that level of debt without any kind of viable job prospects is potentiall catastrophic to thousands of students. I think most people who go into law school really are honest people that want to pave their own way make a good living for themselves and honor their debts, but they are woefully misguided. Thanks to the NYT, and this Wallerstein yokel, we all look like a joke now.

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ArchRoark
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ArchRoark » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:46 am

kpuc wrote:http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704866204575224350917718446.html

This article is about a Northwestern student. It's not Columbia, but it's T-14.


Lazy splitters.

DEKOCARDS
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby DEKOCARDS » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:51 am

robotclubmember wrote:He is the least sympathetic poster boy that could have been selected for what is, in actuality, a serious problem in the legal profession. The NYT wrote a good piece, but by writing about Wallerstein, it kind of undermines the point that many students are legitimately mislead by data that is borderline fiction, and that level of debt without any kind of viable job prospects is potentiall catastrophic to thousands of students. I think most people who go into law school really are honest people that want to pave their own way make a good living for themselves and honor their debts, but they are woefully misguided. Thanks to the NYT, and this Wallerstein yokel, we all look like a joke now.


I think it was the NYT's way of showing that it isn't entirely the legal education system's failure. There are a lot of complete idiots who go into law school blind and come out without a clue how to pay for the years of education wasted on them. I suppose they could have found a better example of someone who did their research and still got screwed to balance it out.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby HarlandBassett » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:14 pm

ArchRoark wrote:
kpuc wrote:http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704866204575224350917718446.html

This article is about a Northwestern student. It's not Columbia, but it's T-14.


Lazy splitters.

lol 50 resumes.

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Sammi
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Sammi » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:17 pm

DEKOCARDS wrote:
robotclubmember wrote:He is the least sympathetic poster boy that could have been selected for what is, in actuality, a serious problem in the legal profession. The NYT wrote a good piece, but by writing about Wallerstein, it kind of undermines the point that many students are legitimately mislead by data that is borderline fiction, and that level of debt without any kind of viable job prospects is potentiall catastrophic to thousands of students. I think most people who go into law school really are honest people that want to pave their own way make a good living for themselves and honor their debts, but they are woefully misguided. Thanks to the NYT, and this Wallerstein yokel, we all look like a joke now.


I think it was the NYT's way of showing that it isn't entirely the legal education system's failure. There are a lot of complete idiots who go into law school blind and come out without a clue how to pay for the years of education wasted on them. I suppose they could have found a better example of someone who did their research and still got screwed to balance it out.


I think we all know that there are folks that are in this forum who got their 16* and have high hopes, will take out hundreds of thousands to pay for the best school they can, will end up bottom of their class, and will have to shoulder a load of debt. It's in the stats. You can't think that everyone is in the top of their class, that everyone is employed, and that everyone makes $150k. I find it interesting that TLS is an area that fosters blind optimism when it comes to after law school success.

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James Bond
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Law School is a Losing Game

Postby James Bond » Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:20 pm

Lol why is the thread title in the form of a question?

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ResolutePear
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Re: Law School is a Losing Game

Postby ResolutePear » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:51 pm

James Bond wrote:Lol why is the thread title in the form of a question?


Because he wants to hear what those attorneys with models and bottles have to say..


oh.

ATR
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Re: Law School is a Losing Game

Postby ATR » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:56 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
James Bond wrote:Lol why is the thread title in the form of a question?


Because he wants to hear what those attorneys with models and bottles have to say..


oh.

That, and the article OP linked to is titled, "Is Law School a Losing Game?"




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