Is Law School a Losing Game?

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sundance95
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby sundance95 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:35 am

ResolutePear wrote:
sundance95 wrote:To those saying 'just let idiots take out loans, personal responsibility, etc etc,' you do realize that allowing stupid people to take out ginormous loans that they could never repay is what precipitated the mortgage crisis, and by extension, ITE, right? How is giving out $300,000 to someone to attend TJ School o' Law any different then giving out a $300,000 ARM to someone working at Wal-Mart? Oh wait, I know-the ARM is dischargeable through BK.


Argument invalid. You cannot discharge student loans unless you lose both your arms and a uterus in a stairbortion accident.

Right, that's my point. So what is going to happen when we have this sizable slice of society that has no chance to ever build any kind of wealth? What would be their motivation, at that point, to not simply decide to be in poverty and depend on the state, whose benefits are ungarnishable-its not like hard work is going to get them out of it. It's going to be a huge drag on the economy.

Bankruptcy screws creditors in the short term, but helps the economy in the medium to long term by allowing people a second chance to succeed.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:38 am

sundance95 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
sundance95 wrote:To those saying 'just let idiots take out loans, personal responsibility, etc etc,' you do realize that allowing stupid people to take out ginormous loans that they could never repay is what precipitated the mortgage crisis, and by extension, ITE, right? How is giving out $300,000 to someone to attend TJ School o' Law any different then giving out a $300,000 ARM to someone working at Wal-Mart? Oh wait, I know-the ARM is dischargeable through BK.


Argument invalid. You cannot discharge student loans unless you lose both your arms and a uterus in a stairbortion accident.

Right, that's my point. So what is going to happen when we have this sizable slice of society that has no chance to ever build any kind of wealth? What would be their motivation, at that point, to not simply decide to be in poverty and depend on the state, whose benefits are ungarnishable-its not like hard work is going to get them out of it. It's going to be a huge drag on the economy.

Bankruptcy screws creditors in the short term, but helps the economy in the medium to long term by allowing people a second chance to succeed.


I don't know about you, but living in poverty freaking sucks. In fact, I'd rather kill than go to the soup line.

Besides, what's 200k at the end of the day? Even making 50k? 4 years.

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androstan
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby androstan » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:17 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
sundance95 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
sundance95 wrote:To those saying 'just let idiots take out loans, personal responsibility, etc etc,' you do realize that allowing stupid people to take out ginormous loans that they could never repay is what precipitated the mortgage crisis, and by extension, ITE, right? How is giving out $300,000 to someone to attend TJ School o' Law any different then giving out a $300,000 ARM to someone working at Wal-Mart? Oh wait, I know-the ARM is dischargeable through BK.


Argument invalid. You cannot discharge student loans unless you lose both your arms and a uterus in a stairbortion accident.

Right, that's my point. So what is going to happen when we have this sizable slice of society that has no chance to ever build any kind of wealth? What would be their motivation, at that point, to not simply decide to be in poverty and depend on the state, whose benefits are ungarnishable-its not like hard work is going to get them out of it. It's going to be a huge drag on the economy.

Bankruptcy screws creditors in the short term, but helps the economy in the medium to long term by allowing people a second chance to succeed.


I don't know about you, but living in poverty freaking sucks. In fact, I'd rather kill than go to the soup line.

Besides, what's 200k at the end of the day? Even making 50k? 4 years.


And what's four years? Enough time to meet someone, fall in love, get married, have your first couple of children, become established in a career. Five percent of your life, 8.5% of your adult working life.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ResolutePear » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:23 pm

androstan wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
sundance95 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Argument invalid. You cannot discharge student loans unless you lose both your arms and a uterus in a stairbortion accident.

Right, that's my point. So what is going to happen when we have this sizable slice of society that has no chance to ever build any kind of wealth? What would be their motivation, at that point, to not simply decide to be in poverty and depend on the state, whose benefits are ungarnishable-its not like hard work is going to get them out of it. It's going to be a huge drag on the economy.

Bankruptcy screws creditors in the short term, but helps the economy in the medium to long term by allowing people a second chance to succeed.


I don't know about you, but living in poverty freaking sucks. In fact, I'd rather kill than go to the soup line.

Besides, what's 200k at the end of the day? Even making 50k? 4 years.


And what's four years? Enough time to meet someone, fall in love, get married, have your first couple of children, become established in a career. Five percent of your life, 8.5% of your adult working life.


Nobody held the gun to your head when you signed off on those loans.

Besides, if you're working Big Law hours at 50k/yr... you already failed enough that you're better off without a wife and kids. Ditto if you can't hook up, marry, and raise a family with 40-50 hour/wk jobs.

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EbonyEsq
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby EbonyEsq » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:02 pm

You all do know some companies pay for JDs, right?

It's called in-house. The smart ones take years off between UG and LS to work in corporate America, preferably for companies. During this time you make your connections, save/invest some money, and be offered some type of tuition reimbursement. Of course, the stipulation is you have to work for your employer upon successful completion of your J.D. Some employers ask for a minimum of 5 years.

Taking years off to work before LS is one of the best decisions I've made. Law schools should start requiring it for all their applicants.

rundoxierun
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby rundoxierun » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:06 pm

EbonyEsq wrote:You all do know some companies pay for JDs, right?

It's called in-house. The smart ones take years off between UG and LS to work in corporate America, preferably for companies. During this time you make your connections, save/invest some money, and be offered some type of tuition reimbursement. Of course, the stipulation is you have to work for your employer upon successful completion of your J.D. Some employers ask for a minimum of 5 years.

Taking years off to work before LS is one of the best decisions I've made. Law schools should start requiring it for all their applicants.


Really?? I didnt realize this. Ive been to panels for a few major companies and interned at one fairly large one and they never said anything about paying for JDs. Almost all had MBA programs, although some were limited to only a few top schools, but never anything else.

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EbonyEsq
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby EbonyEsq » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:17 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
EbonyEsq wrote:You all do know some companies pay for JDs, right?

It's called in-house. The smart ones take years off between UG and LS to work in corporate America, preferably for companies. During this time you make your connections, save/invest some money, and be offered some type of tuition reimbursement. Of course, the stipulation is you have to work for your employer upon successful completion of your J.D. Some employers ask for a minimum of 5 years.

Taking years off to work before LS is one of the best decisions I've made. Law schools should start requiring it for all their applicants.


Really?? I didnt realize this. Ive been to panels for a few major companies and interned at one fairly large one and they never said anything about paying for JDs. Almost all had MBA programs, although some were limited to only a few top schools, but never anything else.


Yes. One of my good friends got an offer to work as a in-house paralegal in a large company (think along the lines of General Electric, etc.) and if she decides to stay with the company, they will pay for her to continue her education in law school.

Once you go in-house, you never go back (ie BIGLAW). True, the pay is less (in house attorneys can make about 100-120k/year) but its a 9-5 job, your vacations are your own, 401k company match (seldom do you find law firms matching your 401k contributions) and no BBs or IPhones waking you up 3am in the morning to go scan a document to a partner.

Don't know if I can drop some company names in this thread...

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EbonyEsq
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby EbonyEsq » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:24 pm

tkgrrett,

If you haven't already figured it out, smart + black = free professional degrees.

Work it to your advantage, my brother. And if I was you, I'd strongly consider getting an MBA, whether alongside the JD or alone.

thisguy456
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby thisguy456 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:28 pm

Surprised no one mentioned the part of the article where Georgetown didn't have salary info for the people it was employing in admissions for 3 weeks. This to me is the most ridiculous part of the whole thing.

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gwuorbust
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby gwuorbust » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:34 pm

thisguy456 wrote:Surprised no one mentioned the part of the article where Georgetown didn't have salary info for the people it was employing in admissions for 3 weeks. This to me is the most ridiculous part of the whole thing.


honesty, the only thing that illustrated is how terrible lawl schools are at keeping records.

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niederbomb
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby niederbomb » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:39 pm

gwuorbust wrote:
thisguy456 wrote:Surprised no one mentioned the part of the article where Georgetown didn't have salary info for the people it was employing in admissions for 3 weeks. This to me is the most ridiculous part of the whole thing.


honesty, the only thing that illustrated is how terrible lawl schools are at keeping records.


You know what? The solution to this dishonesty is have an independent company do the data collection, not the law schools themselves, who have an incentive to lie their little TTT asses off. 8)

You know what? Forget law school. I've got a nonprofit organization to start! :P

Here's to applications to TTT's plummeting as this hits the media.

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GodSpeed
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby GodSpeed » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:05 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
NZA wrote:
NoJob wrote:I think this speaks volumes as to what law students are for universities, i.e. a cheap source of revenue.

And the Times is certainly a more credible source than a scamblogger.


I was thinking about that, too...the part where they mention that enrolling 25 students can mean a million dollars in tuition blew my mind. I'd never really thought of that before.

Some law schools spend more per student than tuition. Definitely all of the t14.

I seriously doubt that.

LS-boundNYC
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby LS-boundNYC » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:14 pm

niederbomb wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:
thisguy456 wrote:Surprised no one mentioned the part of the article where Georgetown didn't have salary info for the people it was employing in admissions for 3 weeks. This to me is the most ridiculous part of the whole thing.


honesty, the only thing that illustrated is how terrible lawl schools are at keeping records.


You know what? The solution to this dishonesty is have an independent company do the data collection, not the law schools themselves, who have an incentive to lie their little TTT asses off. 8)

You know what? Forget law school. I've got a nonprofit organization to start! :P

Here's to applications to TTT's plummeting as this hits the media.


That organization totally needs to exist! Do it!

CyLaw
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby CyLaw » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:17 pm

Chris Ross wrote:
niederbomb wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:
thisguy456 wrote:Surprised no one mentioned the part of the article where Georgetown didn't have salary info for the people it was employing in admissions for 3 weeks. This to me is the most ridiculous part of the whole thing.


honesty, the only thing that illustrated is how terrible lawl schools are at keeping records.


You know what? The solution to this dishonesty is have an independent company do the data collection, not the law schools themselves, who have an incentive to lie their little TTT asses off. 8)

You know what? Forget law school. I've got a nonprofit organization to start! :P

Here's to applications to TTT's plummeting as this hits the media.


That organization totally needs to exist! Do it!


In case you didn't know about it, there is one started by some Vandy people.
http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/

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HarlandBassett
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby HarlandBassett » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:44 pm

amonynous_ivdinidual wrote:the comment about closing law schools/limiting enrollments would run afoul of antitrust laws caught my attention. why is it ok for the AMA to regulate med schools in this way, but the ABA would be precluded by antitrust rules? sounds fishy to me. the ABA should restore some prestige and integrity to its profession, and here is step 1- take the bottom 50 law schools (by whatever metric the ABA wants to use) out back and shoot them. then tell law schools 101-150 that it's open season on them. after a 5-10 year period the top 25 performers of these schools (again, pick your metric, but i say LEGITIMATE job reports for grads are a good start) will be allowed to remain open.

then, strictly limit the numbers of students law schools can enroll, not unlike the approach the AMA takes.

the profession could survive on 125 law schools.

let's step outside the box of supply/demand and fix what's obviously broken. we do it all the time, and the market endures, so please don't warn me of the imminent demise of the free market if these measures were taken. i don't really care. i'd rather have a job.

there will always be clueless students who need to get nonvaluable graduate degrees b/c they were unable to secure a job. Other venues will open up such as the currently inflating bubble of business school (MBA) or degrees such as this ("International Business")

--LinkRemoved--

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HarlandBassett
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby HarlandBassett » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:47 pm

icouldbuyu wrote:
swfangirl wrote:Before y'all dismiss this because the main person discussed in the article went to a T4 school, consider this:

Jason Bohn is earning $33 an hour as a legal temp while strapped to more than $200,000 in loans, a sizable chunk of which he accumulated during his time at Columbia University, where he finished both a J.D. and a master’s degree.


I just looked this guy up on linkedin and I found him. His masters is in some useless liberal arts concentration. Additionally, based on his profile pic, he looks like he's in his 30's, which the article states is a handicapp. Is it possible that completing a MA/JD jointly resulted in bad grades, thus no big law offers? Just trying to make sense of this person's circumstances.

article does not state that. it was the brilliant Wallerstein who said that.

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bgdddymtty
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby bgdddymtty » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:01 pm

HarlandBassett wrote:
icouldbuyu wrote:
swfangirl wrote:Before y'all dismiss this because the main person discussed in the article went to a T4 school, consider this:

Jason Bohn is earning $33 an hour as a legal temp while strapped to more than $200,000 in loans, a sizable chunk of which he accumulated during his time at Columbia University, where he finished both a J.D. and a master’s degree.


I just looked this guy up on linkedin and I found him. His masters is in some useless liberal arts concentration. Additionally, based on his profile pic, he looks like he's in his 30's, which the article states is a handicapp. Is it possible that completing a MA/JD jointly resulted in bad grades, thus no big law offers? Just trying to make sense of this person's circumstances.

article does not state that. it was the brilliant Wallerstein who said that.
Actually, neither Wallerstein nor the article's author stated that. It was the manager of the doc review temp service, himself over 30, who made that claim.

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paratactical
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby paratactical » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:15 pm

EbonyEsq wrote:You all do know some companies pay for JDs, right?


While your friend got lucky, this is actually incredibly rare and is only possible from an inhouse position. Law firms that pay for paralegals to go to law school are even more rare and unlikely. There isn't a single firm in the Vault top 50 that will do this.

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EbonyEsq
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby EbonyEsq » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:55 pm

paratactical wrote:
EbonyEsq wrote:You all do know some companies pay for JDs, right?


While your friend got lucky, this is actually incredibly rare and is only possible from an inhouse position. Law firms that pay for paralegals to go to law school are even more rare and unlikely. There isn't a single firm in the Vault top 50 that will do this.


It's not luck. It's being smart. Just like there are legal assistant/paralegal positions offered by firms, they are also available positions in-house. In fact, my friend started at a V30, stayed a year and then moved on to her current position. She kept applying to jobs even though she landed a decent one in BIGLAW.

HamDel
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby HamDel » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:57 pm

porgie wrote:I have a full scholly at a T20 and will probably have about $40K in debt after I'm done w/ law school from cost of living loans, and I'm scared shitless about it. I'm extremely risk/debt averse, and I sometimes wish I hadn't even attended law school, even w/ the scholly. How the hell do you take out $200K in loans and not once stop and think, "what will it take to repay this? How much per month will my loan payment be, and what salary do I need to be earning in order to pay it? will obtaining this degree open up career opportunities that will allow me to meet that necessary salary?"

The Wallerstein guy came across as an epic douche who made a horrible decision just to impress some people who are stupid enough to be impressed by a thomas jefferson law degree. The fact that he almost tried to purchase a home as investment property or some other such bullshit just confirms how douchey the guy really is.

As far as the misleading info, I admit that I didn't know the extent that schools go to in order to boost their numbers. GULC temporarily hires unemployed grads in order to boost their employment rate up? horrible, and I would never have thought that they would stoop to that.


You don't have enough self confidence to think that you will be able to pay back $40,000 comfortably?

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emorystud2010
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby emorystud2010 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:02 pm

funny when i wrote it
Last edited by emorystud2010 on Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BlakcMajikc
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby BlakcMajikc » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:04 pm

EbonyEsq wrote:tkgrrett,

If you haven't already figured it out, smart + black = free professional degrees.

Work it to your advantage, my brother. And if I was you, I'd strongly consider getting an MBA, whether alongside the JD or alone.



Nice ;)

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BlakcMajikc
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby BlakcMajikc » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:05 pm

The article just hit the front page of yahoo.com, so definitely spreading...

http://finance.yahoo.com/college-educat ... _education

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paratactical
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby paratactical » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:11 pm

EbonyEsq wrote:
paratactical wrote:
EbonyEsq wrote:You all do know some companies pay for JDs, right?


While your friend got lucky, this is actually incredibly rare and is only possible from an inhouse position. Law firms that pay for paralegals to go to law school are even more rare and unlikely. There isn't a single firm in the Vault top 50 that will do this.


It's not luck. It's being smart. Just like there are legal assistant/paralegal positions offered by firms, they are also available positions in-house. In fact, my friend started at a V30, stayed a year and then moved on to her current position. She kept applying to jobs even though she landed a decent one in BIGLAW.


It is at least partially luck. I'm sure your friend is smart and gamed her move well, but she was lucky to work in an area that had inhouse groups that will pay for law school (unless she moved). There really aren't many companies that will pay for law school because it is viewed as having such high returns. While I admire your friend for being able to get herself a position that allows this, it's misinformation to imply to people that anybody can do it. There are very very very few jobs out there that will do this and I know because I spent 2 years in NYC looking for an office that would do this and they simply don't exist very frequently and when they do, their other benefits tend to be so good that the turn over is incredibly low, making getting employment at such companies incredibly difficult.

ISTAND
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ISTAND » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:50 pm

Who else thinks ResolutePear is A-N-N-O-Y-I-N-G? :idea: :roll:




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