Is Law School a Losing Game?

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NoJob
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby NoJob » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:01 pm

ResolutePear wrote:So guys, let me get this straight:

You guys want a 100% employment rate when the nation's hovering over a 10% unemployment average?


The rate for people with bachelor's and higher is much lower, i.e. 4-5%. Law school grads are a clear aberration from that stat.

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mpj_3050
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby mpj_3050 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:02 pm

He took out 15k for the bar, what the hell? Jesus man, all that money for Thomas Jefferson. Plus, he has private loans on top of it!

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JG Hall
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby JG Hall » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:02 pm

ScottRiqui wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:
NZA wrote:
NoJob wrote:I think this speaks volumes as to what law students are for universities, i.e. a cheap source of revenue.

And the Times is certainly a more credible source than a scamblogger.


I was thinking about that, too...the part where they mention that enrolling 25 students can mean a million dollars in tuition blew my mind. I'd never really thought of that before.

Some law schools spend more per student than tuition. Definitely all of the t14.


I'm glad you brought this up. I've always wondered how law schools spend their money.

For things like engineering/science and medicine, I can see where the expenses come from at a big university-affiliated research lab, or a teaching hospital, but where does the $150-200k per student go in a law school? Professors and books?

(I realize that most students aren't paying sticker, and that's it's more than *just* professors and books, but there has to be something big that I'm not even thinking of.)

I think tuition covers ~62% of operating expenses at CLS. There are a shitton of professors who I am sure are all making way more than 3 years' tuition. And Columbia has a HORRIBLE contract with the maintenance union, so we pay out the ass for any on-campus event.

theantiscalia
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby theantiscalia » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:03 pm

Part of me is very upset with law schools like Thomas Jefferson for misleading people into a lifetime of debt servitude. But an even larger - and slightly cynical - part of me thinks these kids got what they deserved. A basic Google search - five minutes worth of research - would have alerted them of the questionable value of a law degree. These aren't idiots that need to be protected by society... they have a college degree.

I do feel sorry for people who make smart decisions (good law school, with a scholarship, living a spartan lifestyle) and then find themselves in over their head. But to me, attending one of these schools is rarely a smart decision.

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JG Hall
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby JG Hall » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:03 pm

albusdumbledore wrote:
swfangirl wrote:Before y'all dismiss this because the main person discussed in the article went to a T4 school, consider this:

"Jason Bohn is earning $33 an hour as a legal temp while strapped to more than $200,000 in loans, a sizable chunk of which he accumulated during his time at Columbia University, where he finished both a J.D. and a master’s degree.
"


I'm not dismissing that. 200K for a degree, yes even one from Columbia, isn't a wise decision. Or at least it isn't one I'd be willing to make.

And his solution? ANOTHER DEGREE. (Also, he was a transfer, so it wasn't ALL CLS.)

plum
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby plum » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:05 pm

albusdumbledore wrote:
swfangirl wrote:Before y'all dismiss this because the main person discussed in the article went to a T4 school, consider this:

"Jason Bohn is earning $33 an hour as a legal temp while strapped to more than $200,000 in loans, a sizable chunk of which he accumulated during his time at Columbia University, where he finished both a J.D. and a master’s degree.
"


I'm not dismissing that. 200K for a degree, yes even one from Columbia, isn't a wise decision. Or at least it isn't one I'd be willing to make.

how much debt would you be willing to take on for CLS?

MrAnon
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby MrAnon » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:08 pm

oh please. Every 0L and 1L on this board, with exception of those at HYS would sign away rights to their first borne son in order to attend CLS.

amonynous_ivdinidual
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby amonynous_ivdinidual » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:09 pm

JG Hall wrote:
amonynous_ivdinidual wrote:the comment about closing law schools/limiting enrollments would run afoul of antitrust laws caught my attention. why is it ok for the AMA to regulate med schools in this way, but the ABA would be precluded by antitrust rules? sounds fishy to me. the ABA should restore some prestige and integrity to its profession, and here is step 1- take the bottom 50 law schools (by whatever metric the ABA wants to use) out back and shoot them. then tell law schools 101-150 that it's open season on them. after a 5-10 year period the top 25 performers of these schools (again, pick your metric, but i say LEGITIMATE job reports for grads are a good start) will be allowed to remain open.

then, strictly limit the numbers of students law schools can enroll, not unlike the approach the AMA takes.

the profession could survive on 125 law schools.

let's step outside the box of supply/demand and fix what's obviously broken. we do it all the time, and the market endures, so please don't warn me of the imminent demise of the free market if these measures were taken. i don't really care. i'd rather have a job.

http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/press ... 216804.htm


Well, don't that beat all.

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Knock
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Knock » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:10 pm

MrAnon wrote:oh please. Every 0L and 1L on this board, with exception of those at HYS would sign away rights to their first borne son in order to attend CLS.


Not true at all. Many people would prefer to take scholarship money than to take CLS at sticker, and some people may choose other schools due to regional preference; not everyone wants NYC biglaw.

plum
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby plum » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:11 pm

i found a random article about the cls guy http://jccany.convio.net/site/MessageVi ... lv_id=6821

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albusdumbledore
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby albusdumbledore » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:14 pm

plum wrote:
albusdumbledore wrote:
swfangirl wrote:Before y'all dismiss this because the main person discussed in the article went to a T4 school, consider this:

"Jason Bohn is earning $33 an hour as a legal temp while strapped to more than $200,000 in loans, a sizable chunk of which he accumulated during his time at Columbia University, where he finished both a J.D. and a master’s degree.
"


I'm not dismissing that. 200K for a degree, yes even one from Columbia, isn't a wise decision. Or at least it isn't one I'd be willing to make.

how much debt would you be willing to take on for CLS?


I'm speaking as someone who has experience paying bills for whatever that's worth. I guess I'm a "0L" (that term makes me shudder). But if you can get into CLS, there is a good chance that you'll have significant scholarship at lower T14. Quite honestly, I don't think I'd take out more than 100K to go anywhere, but like I said I'm fairly debt averse because I've had experience paying back undergrad loans. I know what it feels like.

NoJob
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby NoJob » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:17 pm

theantiscalia wrote:Part of me is very upset with law schools like Thomas Jefferson for misleading people into a lifetime of debt servitude. But an even larger - and slightly cynical - part of me thinks these kids got what they deserved. A basic Google search - five minutes worth of research - would have alerted them of the questionable value of a law degree. These aren't idiots that need to be protected by society... they have a college degree.

I do feel sorry for people who make smart decisions (good law school, with a scholarship, living a spartan lifestyle) and then find themselves in over their head. But to me, attending one of these schools is rarely a smart decision.


I think the schools need to be policed. I can easily see a 0L relying on them to tell the truth about their employment data. If some company tried to massage the numbers this way to its shareholders, there would be a shareholder class action coming at them.

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AreJay711
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby AreJay711 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:28 pm

MrAnon wrote:oh please. Every 0L and 1L on this board, with exception of those at HYS would sign away rights to their first borne son in order to attend CLS.

Ehh I wasn't impressed with CLS even though it is obviously a great school.

Anyway, this guy is an idiot and no, i don't feel sorry for him in the least bit. The guy from CLS maybe a little bit but some fool that borrows all that money and then drops this BS:
“When it was my turn, I said, ‘Labor Day is about celebrating the 40-hour workweek, weekends, that sort of thing,’ ” Mr. Wallerstein recalls. “She said, ‘Well, workers have that now so you don’t need a day off to celebrate it.’ ”

He lasted less than a month.



I thought at least sorry for the fiancée that was hopefully devising an exit plan until I read this:
Mr. Wallerstein is chatting over lunch one recent afternoon with his fiancée, Karin Michonski. She, too, seems unperturbed by his dizzying collection of i.o.u.’s. Despite those debts, she hopes that he does not wind up in one of those time-gobbling corporate law jobs.



Oh and at the end there is this little gem:
MR. WALLERSTEIN, for his part, is not complaining. Once you throw in the intangibles of having a J.D., he says, he is one of law schools’ satisfied customers.

“It’s a prestige thing,” he says. “I’m an attorney. All of my friends see me as a person they look up to. They understand I’m in a lot of debt, but I’ve done something they feel they could never do and the respect and admiration is important.”


Maybe natural selection will kick in and we will be rid of people like this forever so I think TTTs might be beneficial to society.
Last edited by AreJay711 on Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JazzOne
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby JazzOne » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:29 pm

NoJob wrote:
theantiscalia wrote:Part of me is very upset with law schools like Thomas Jefferson for misleading people into a lifetime of debt servitude. But an even larger - and slightly cynical - part of me thinks these kids got what they deserved. A basic Google search - five minutes worth of research - would have alerted them of the questionable value of a law degree. These aren't idiots that need to be protected by society... they have a college degree.

I do feel sorry for people who make smart decisions (good law school, with a scholarship, living a spartan lifestyle) and then find themselves in over their head. But to me, attending one of these schools is rarely a smart decision.


I think the schools need to be policed. I can easily see a 0L relying on them to tell the truth about their employment data. If some company tried to massage the numbers this way to its shareholders, there would be a shareholder class action coming at them.

+1

It's just going to take a clever lawyer to crack this nut.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:35 pm

JazzOne wrote:
NoJob wrote:
theantiscalia wrote:Part of me is very upset with law schools like Thomas Jefferson for misleading people into a lifetime of debt servitude. But an even larger - and slightly cynical - part of me thinks these kids got what they deserved. A basic Google search - five minutes worth of research - would have alerted them of the questionable value of a law degree. These aren't idiots that need to be protected by society... they have a college degree.

I do feel sorry for people who make smart decisions (good law school, with a scholarship, living a spartan lifestyle) and then find themselves in over their head. But to me, attending one of these schools is rarely a smart decision.


I think the schools need to be policed. I can easily see a 0L relying on them to tell the truth about their employment data. If some company tried to massage the numbers this way to its shareholders, there would be a shareholder class action coming at them.

+1

It's just going to take a clever lawyer to crack this nut.


Depending on the school, I like to compare most of them to a late-night infomercial. You're not going to sue the guy on slap chop because it doesn't execute the 4 slap perfect 20% of the time with various random deviations therefore.

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ScottRiqui
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ScottRiqui » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:36 pm

This part made my heart drop into my stomach (if I end up going to law school, I'll be 47 when I graduate):

Most of us either went to the wrong law school, which is the bottom two-thirds, or we were too old when we graduated,” he said. “I was 32 when I graduated, and at 32 you’re washed up in this field, in terms of a shot at the real deal. They perceived me as somebody they can’t indoctrinate into slave labor and work to death for seven years and then release if they don’t like you.

Unfortunately, we don't learn anything about the quoted lawyer in the article except that he's managing a temporary legal service, so I guess I can hold out hope that his age wasn't his only problem.

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Patriot1208
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Patriot1208 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:38 pm

NoJob wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:So guys, let me get this straight:

You guys want a 100% employment rate when the nation's hovering over a 10% unemployment average?


The rate for people with bachelor's and higher is much lower, i.e. 4-5%. Law school grads are a clear aberration from that stat.


Actually, the unemployment rate for those with bachelors in their twenties is about 9%

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:39 pm

ScottRiqui wrote:This part made my heart drop into my stomach (if I end up going to law school, I'll be 47 when I graduate):

Most of us either went to the wrong law school, which is the bottom two-thirds, or we were too old when we graduated,” he said. “I was 32 when I graduated, and at 32 you’re washed up in this field, in terms of a shot at the real deal. They perceived me as somebody they can’t indoctrinate into slave labor and work to death for seven years and then release if they don’t like you.

Unfortunately, we don't learn anything about the quoted lawyer in the article except that he's managing a temporary legal service, so I guess I can hold out hope that his age wasn't his only problem.


I just find it hard to believe that at 32 you're washed up - especially when 4-5 years of work experience before law school is valued by certain law schools like Northwestern and Stanford, IIRC.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:42 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
NoJob wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:So guys, let me get this straight:

You guys want a 100% employment rate when the nation's hovering over a 10% unemployment average?


The rate for people with bachelor's and higher is much lower, i.e. 4-5%. Law school grads are a clear aberration from that stat.


Actually, the unemployment rate for those with bachelors in their twenties is about 9%


Yep. And that's not even painting a good picture as they're higher when taking certain factors into account(race, ethnicity, and sex).

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Patriot1208
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Patriot1208 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:45 pm

ResolutePear wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
NoJob wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:So guys, let me get this straight:

You guys want a 100% employment rate when the nation's hovering over a 10% unemployment average?


The rate for people with bachelor's and higher is much lower, i.e. 4-5%. Law school grads are a clear aberration from that stat.


Actually, the unemployment rate for those with bachelors in their twenties is about 9%


Yep. And that's not even painting a good picture as they're higher when taking certain factors into account(race, ethnicity, and sex).

And, i'm sure we all know the kids who graduated with bachelors and are working in retail.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:57 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
NoJob wrote:
The rate for people with bachelor's and higher is much lower, i.e. 4-5%. Law school grads are a clear aberration from that stat.


Actually, the unemployment rate for those with bachelors in their twenties is about 9%


Yep. And that's not even painting a good picture as they're higher when taking certain factors into account(race, ethnicity, and sex).

And, i'm sure we all know the kids who graduated with bachelors and are working in retail.


But..

They're Hollister store managers!

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JG Hall
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby JG Hall » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:01 am

ResolutePear wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:And, i'm sure we all know the kids who graduated with bachelors and are working in retail.


But..

They're Hollister store managers!

I'm pretty sure all Hollister managers have 4 year degrees.

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NZA
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby NZA » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:02 am

ResolutePear wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
NoJob wrote:
theantiscalia wrote:Part of me is very upset with law schools like Thomas Jefferson for misleading people into a lifetime of debt servitude. But an even larger - and slightly cynical - part of me thinks these kids got what they deserved. A basic Google search - five minutes worth of research - would have alerted them of the questionable value of a law degree. These aren't idiots that need to be protected by society... they have a college degree.

I do feel sorry for people who make smart decisions (good law school, with a scholarship, living a spartan lifestyle) and then find themselves in over their head. But to me, attending one of these schools is rarely a smart decision.


I think the schools need to be policed. I can easily see a 0L relying on them to tell the truth about their employment data. If some company tried to massage the numbers this way to its shareholders, there would be a shareholder class action coming at them.

+1

It's just going to take a clever lawyer to crack this nut.


Depending on the school, I like to compare most of them to a late-night infomercial. You're not going to sue the guy on slap chop because it doesn't execute the 4 slap perfect 20% of the time with various random deviations therefore.


I don't know why I find this so hilarious, but it is.

thegor1987
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby thegor1987 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:04 am

ScottRiqui wrote:This part made my heart drop into my stomach (if I end up going to law school, I'll be 47 when I graduate):

Most of us either went to the wrong law school, which is the bottom two-thirds, or we were too old when we graduated,” he said. “I was 32 when I graduated, and at 32 you’re washed up in this field, in terms of a shot at the real deal. They perceived me as somebody they can’t indoctrinate into slave labor and work to death for seven years and then release if they don’t like you.

Unfortunately, we don't learn anything about the quoted lawyer in the article except that he's managing a temporary legal service, so I guess I can hold out hope that his age wasn't his only problem.


Be careful when reading opinions. Especially when it is online and you can't see the big pussy that's saying it. Just form your own opinion on such a matter.

Burt Rutan is 67 and is about to create the biggest explosion in space travel advancement we have ever seen. Through his imagination, work, and sheer genius about 100,000 civialians will see space by 2020 (and that's not including his competition!).

At 32 you not washed up in any field

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JazzOne
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby JazzOne » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:07 am

ResolutePear wrote:Depending on the school, I like to compare most of them to a late-night infomercial. You're not going to sue the guy on slap chop because it doesn't execute the 4 slap perfect 20% of the time with various random deviations therefore.

You might if they sold thousands of them for $100K a pop.




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