Is Law School a Losing Game? Forum

[sbalive]

I'm most disgusted by the "I thought someone would hook me up with a job" mentality in the article. No, people don't just walk around and hand you jobs in any field. You actually have to apply and prove yourself. I see this even at my own law school with people who bitch that OCS didn't just hook them up with a summer job. There is a huge sense of entitlement among law students and maybe even our generation as a whole, and it scares me. No one owes you anything, no matter how fancy your degree is.

+1

+2

If you couldn't use your BA to rustle up some kind of decent employment, expecting a JD to make a huge difference may be a stretch. Actually, this idea that a school office will find me a job is all very new to me.

I'm a big believer in hustling and working hard on job acquisition versus just studying and hoping for the best.

BUT -- we're talking about what is about to exceed $150K for a professional degree in a highly competitive field. It is absolutely NOT too much to expect law schools to make career placement their highest priority. Instead, they use the increasing revenue from tuition to build luxurious classroom spaces and offices, and to hire professors who published two more law review articles than someone else who might well be a superior teacher. Maybe if they used that income to open more clinics and subsidize externships, that would be useful, but it's often second fiddle to hiring whoever the latest Yale-educated "academic superstar" they can find whose only experience with the real world of law firms (or even PI/government) is a 2L summer.

And, by the way, this highlights the fact that placement is not all about CSO. It's about having a CULTURE of career preparation, so that everyone engages in helping students figure out what they need to do to hustle and providing them with open doors so they have the opportunity to sell their characteristics. The fundamental problem is that Law academics want desperately to be SCHOLARS, when they should just grow up, realize that they aren't fucking liberal arts professors, understand that they make 3 or 4 times the salary of liberal arts professors BECAUSE they are at a professional school, and do whatever the hell it takes for their students to be competitive in a crappy marketplace.

[rundoxierun]

I'd like to point out the most important point that everyone should take away from this article:

If you allow anyone to borrow lots of money, lots of stupid people will do so. It doesn't matter what its for, maybe its a house, car, or degree. The point is, allowing the vast majority of the population to borrow huge amounts of money will result in lots of people being in serious debt.

Unfortunately, proving that law school students aren't the best policy makers, people on these message boards constantly bitch about how we should limit the number of law schools. Returning to the age of guilds is not the solution to this problem. The simple solution is to stop allowing anyone to borrow huge amounts of money for advanced degrees. Allow students to discharge debts through bankruptcy. Don't have the government guarantee 100% of loans (maybe having the government guarantee a fractions might be a better idea). If lenders have to face consequences for making bad loans, they'll stop lending money to idiots. Right now we've completely destroyed capitalistic mechanisms from the student loan process. Lenders can make bad loans and borrowers can borrow themselves stupid.

This is absolutely credited. To piggyback just a little, with the constant drumbeat we hear about how great the federal financial aid program is because it "makes college affordable" for so many people, we rarely hear about the outrageous, economically perverse effect student loan guarantees have had on tuition prices.

Here is a graph of the arc of law school tuition at UVa since the 1990-91 school year. Pay special attention to the out-of-state tuition figure, as it should at least theoretically reflect the true cost of educating students. With the additional $3,700 increase for this year, that's a 371% jump in tuition over the past 20 years. There's no way that happens in a free market where people have to (gasp!) really qualify for loans or (double gasp!) pay their way through school with savings, part-time work, etc.

Unfortunately, those currently in charge in Washington have decided to double down by completely taking lending institutions out of the loop. But I digress.

I get the point you are trying to make but I dont think it is that simple.. Even w/o the student loan effect the cost of education would not be affordable. A huge amount of 18-25 year olds could not qualify for private loans and part-time work would not be enough to pay the cost. A change in the student loan process would have to also be accompanied by reinvestment in education by our state governments. Some of our public schools get so little funding from their states that they might as well be private. When these cuts fall down on the schools they have to either make up the losses via tuition or start cutting programs.

[masterthearts]

I googled Jason Bohn (Columbia grad). I am under the impression that his columbia degree is undergrad. He was to enter Univ. of Florida Law..if it's the same jason bohn

Pretty sure this is the guy:
--LinkRemoved--

You are incorrect. The Jason Bohn in the NYT article says he was a ward of the state. THIS is the Jason Bohn. In this article, he talks about how he was a ward of the state:

In My Own Words

Jason Bohn

Each year, the JCCA Scholarship Fund helps young people from programs throughout the agency continue on with their education. Over the years, there have been many, many success stories of young men and women who overcome tremendous odds to rebuild troubled lives. Jason Bohn is one. A resident at Pleasantville Cottage School during the mid-1990s, Jason graduated from Columbia University in 2005, and spent the past year working as a paralegal for a large New York Law Firm. In September, he will enter the University of Florida Law School on a full scholarship. We are very proud to publish his story, told in his own words. (106)

“ I am a 27-year old law student, Ivy League graduate and former ward of the court. My entire identity is one of juxtapositions. While I am originally from “Da Bronx”, I now live in Riverdale. My father was addicted to drugs and physically abusive. My mother was addicted to success and eventually abandoned me for a new life and family. I was thirteen years of age, depressed and extremely angry when I went to live at the Pleasantville Cottage School in Westchester County. Upon my arrival to Cottage 8, I was sincerely determined to do whatever it took to get kicked out. I was physically violent against fellow cottage members and disobedient to concerned staff members such as Andre and Clarence. I also went AWOL every other week to escape to the city. Retrospectively I can honestly say that I didn’t give a &%#@ about much. In reality, I was suicidal.

This sort of behavior continued through my first year of placement. In fact, it wasn’t until I realized that the people at PCS were not just going to abandon me that I begin to look at my life as something with value. I remember thinking, “why won’t these people just leave me alone?” But they didn’t. And heading into my second year at PCS, I begin to see my life as an opportunity worth investing in. Indeed it was no secret that I was a very good student despite my behavior. I remember my favorite teacher, Mr. Heine, remarking on one of my report cards that “it is amazing how well Jason performs academically despite his unruly behavior”. It was individuals such as Mr. Buckstein, then the head of PCS who is now at Edenwald, who helped me understand that if I ever got my behavior and emotional issues under control, I could make it. On the whole, my experience at PCS was positive—especially once I became more cooperative and less self-destructive.

After leaving PCS, I began to slowly redefine myself. There were many falls along the way. But I got up. And after graduating from community college some years later, I received a partial scholarship to attend Columbia University. At the time, I was ecstatic that I had been accepted but distraught over the funding shortfall. Like compassionate parents, Helen Solomon and the JCCA Scholarship Fund stepped in and helped make up the difference. Furthermore, Helen provided sound guidance throughout my time at Columbia and during the application process to law school. It made all the difference.

To the wonderful people at PCS and JCCA, I am indebted to you for life.” (436)

[Black-Blue]

It is absolutely NOT too much to expect law schools to make career placement their highest priority. Instead, they use the increasing revenue from tuition to build luxurious classroom spaces and offices, and to hire professors who published two more law review articles than someone else who might well be a superior teacher. Maybe if they used that income to open more clinics and subsidize externships, that would be useful, but it's often second fiddle to hiring whoever the latest Yale-educated "academic superstar" they can find whose only experience with the real world of law firms (or even PI/government) is a 2L summer.

I think this is because of the peer-review score on USNEWS. If that were gone, there would be no incentive to hire superstar academics, because nobody really gives a crap about them.

[rundoxierun]

I googled Jason Bohn (Columbia grad). I am under the impression that his columbia degree is undergrad. He was to enter Univ. of Florida Law..if it's the same jason bohn

Pretty sure this is the guy:
--LinkRemoved--

You are incorrect. The Jason Bohn in the NYT article says he was a ward of the state. THIS is the Jason Bohn. In this article, he talks about how he was a ward of the state:

In My Own Words

Jason Bohn

Each year, the JCCA Scholarship Fund helps young people from programs throughout the agency continue on with their education. Over the years, there have been many, many success stories of young men and women who overcome tremendous odds to rebuild troubled lives. Jason Bohn is one. A resident at Pleasantville Cottage School during the mid-1990s, Jason graduated from Columbia University in 2005, and spent the past year working as a paralegal for a large New York law firm. In September, he will enter the University of Florida Law School on a full scholarship. We are very proud to publish his story, told in his own words. (106)

“ I am a 27-year old law student, Ivy League graduate and former ward of the court. My entire identity is one of juxtapositions. While I am originally from “Da Bronx”, I now live in Riverdale. My father was addicted to drugs and physically abusive. My mother was addicted to success and eventually abandoned me for a new life and family. I was thirteen years of age, depressed and extremely angry when I went to live at the Pleasantville Cottage School in Westchester County. Upon my arrival to Cottage 8, I was sincerely determined to do whatever it took to get kicked out. I was physically violent against fellow cottage members and disobedient to concerned staff members such as Andre and Clarence. I also went AWOL every other week to escape to the city. Retrospectively I can honestly say that I didn’t give a &%#@ about much. In reality, I was suicidal.

This sort of behavior continued through my first year of placement. In fact, it wasn’t until I realized that the people at PCS were not just going to abandon me that I begin to look at my life as something with value. I remember thinking, “why won’t these people just leave me alone?” But they didn’t. And heading into my second year at PCS, I begin to see my life as an opportunity worth investing in. Indeed it was no secret that I was a very good student despite my behavior. I remember my favorite teacher, Mr. Heine, remarking on one of my report cards that “it is amazing how well Jason performs academically despite his unruly behavior”. It was individuals such as Mr. Buckstein, then the head of PCS who is now at Edenwald, who helped me understand that if I ever got my behavior and emotional issues under control, I could make it. On the whole, my experience at PCS was positive—especially once I became more cooperative and less self-destructive.

After leaving PCS, I began to slowly redefine myself. There were many falls along the way. But I got up. And after graduating from community college some years later, I received a partial scholarship to attend Columbia University. At the time, I was ecstatic that I had been accepted but distraught over the funding shortfall. Like compassionate parents, Helen Solomon and the JCCA Scholarship Fund stepped in and helped make up the difference. Furthermore, Helen provided sound guidance throughout my time at Columbia and during the application process to law school. It made all the difference.

To the wonderful people at PCS and JCCA, I am indebted to you for life.” (436)

hmm.. good find. I knew I should not have had faith in our journalists.

[ResolutePear]

It is absolutely NOT too much to expect law schools to make career placement their highest priority. Instead, they use the increasing revenue from tuition to build luxurious classroom spaces and offices, and to hire professors who published two more law review articles than someone else who might well be a superior teacher. Maybe if they used that income to open more clinics and subsidize externships, that would be useful, but it's often second fiddle to hiring whoever the latest Yale-educated "academic superstar" they can find whose only experience with the real world of law firms (or even PI/government) is a 2L summer.

I think this is because of the peer-review score on USNEWS. If that were gone, there would be no incentive to hire superstar academics, because nobody really gives a crap about them.

I'm just curious..

Do other professions have such a formal OCI scheme?

I understand Med School has somewhat the same thing for residency, but otherwise.

[Black-Blue]

Formal OCI? Business, I'd say.

[JazzOne]

I have a full scholly at a T20 and will probably have about $40K in debt after I'm done w/ law school from cost of living loans, and I'm scared shitless about it. I'm extremely risk/debt averse, and I sometimes wish I hadn't even attended law school, even w/ the scholly.

Ditto

[JazzOne]

So in short, I guess I'd have to go the "biglaw or bust" route, not because I want "models and bottles" or to drive a Bentley, but because the skewed nature of law salaries means that biglaw is just about the only way that law becomes a better financial option than the ones I already have.

+1

A lot of people get criticized on these forums for the "biglaw or bust" mentality, but when tuition is so freakin' high, I don't see any other way to make law school a profitable decision.

[ResolutePear]

I have a full scholly at a T20 and will probably have about $40K in debt after I'm done w/ law school from cost of living loans, and I'm scared shitless about it. I'm extremely risk/debt averse, and I sometimes wish I hadn't even attended law school, even w/ the scholly.

Ditto

40k really isn't that bad - unless you already had a genuinely employable or entrepreneurial skill.

[JazzOne]

I have a full scholly at a T20 and will probably have about $40K in debt after I'm done w/ law school from cost of living loans, and I'm scared shitless about it. I'm extremely risk/debt averse, and I sometimes wish I hadn't even attended law school, even w/ the scholly.

Ditto

40k really isn't that bad - unless you already had a genuinely employable or entrepreneurial skill.

I mean, I was employed. I'm still not sure what they paid me for exactly, but someone seemed to like my skillz.

[ResolutePear]

So in short, I guess I'd have to go the "biglaw or bust" route, not because I want "models and bottles" or to drive a Bentley, but because the skewed nature of law salaries means that biglaw is just about the only way that law becomes a better financial option than the ones I already have.

+1

A lot of people get criticized on these forums for the "biglaw or bust" mentality, but when tuition is so freakin' high, I don't see any other way to make law school a profitable decision.

I want to archive these forums, put them on a couple DVD/Tapes, and store them away for 10-20 years.

It'd be interesting.

[ResolutePear]

I have a full scholly at a T20 and will probably have about $40K in debt after I'm done w/ law school from cost of living loans, and I'm scared shitless about it. I'm extremely risk/debt averse, and I sometimes wish I hadn't even attended law school, even w/ the scholly.

Ditto

40k really isn't that bad - unless you already had a genuinely employable or entrepreneurial skill.

I mean, I was employed. I'm still not sure what they paid me for exactly, but someone seemed to like my skillz.

Yeah, but teacher retention is always an issue anyways.

Down here in Miami, have a JD or PhD nets you 8-10k more on your salary - so even coming out 40k in debt, it'd pay off in 5 years. Kinda seems like a worse case scenario when I look at it like that.

[gwuorbust]

So in short, I guess I'd have to go the "biglaw or bust" route, not because I want "models and bottles" or to drive a Bentley, but because the skewed nature of law salaries means that biglaw is just about the only way that law becomes a better financial option than the ones I already have.

+1

A lot of people get criticized on these forums for the "biglaw or bust" mentality, but when tuition is so freakin' high, I don't see any other way to make law school a profitable decision.

I want to archive these forums, put them on a couple DVD/Tapes, and store them away for 10-20 years.

It'd be interesting.

except in 20 years finding a DVD player will be like finding an 8-track player

[JazzOne]

Yeah, but teacher retention is always an issue anyways.

Down here in Miami, have a JD or PhD nets you 8-10k more on your salary - so even coming out 40k in debt, it'd pay off in 5 years. Kinda seems like a worse case scenario when I look at it like that.

I figured I could go back to teaching if worse came to worse, but then just as I began law school, a lot of school districts implemented hiring freezes. I could probably scramble for a job since I have a decent amount of experience, but finding a job in teaching would not be as easy as I anticipated when I made the decision to go to law school. Once OCI rolled around, I really did feel like it was biglaw or bust. I know that $40K is not a ton of money, but it's my signature on the promissory note, and I'm not going to end up in some NYT article for taking on enormous debt. Fuck that. I'll pay my own debt without whining to the whole world about it, thank you very much.

[ResolutePear]

So in short, I guess I'd have to go the "biglaw or bust" route, not because I want "models and bottles" or to drive a Bentley, but because the skewed nature of law salaries means that biglaw is just about the only way that law becomes a better financial option than the ones I already have.

+1

A lot of people get criticized on these forums for the "biglaw or bust" mentality, but when tuition is so freakin' high, I don't see any other way to make law school a profitable decision.

I want to archive these forums, put them on a couple DVD/Tapes, and store them away for 10-20 years.

It'd be interesting.

except in 20 years finding a DVD player will be like finding an 8-track player

CD's have been around 1982, IIRC. Tape drives have been around for much, much longer.

I think we're okay on that end. I'd be worried about preserving the media - of course.. I can always just email it to myself through gmail and let Google worry about that.

[Perch]

i am taking out 150k of loans for a T10. as a splitter i don't think i would be getting any full-rides to a T50 or so school, and so i'd probably have some debt either way which would take me multiple years to pay off. i think the debt issue is more problematic if you are debating between doing law or not doing law. but once you make the decision to go into the legal field and decide that's what you want to do with your life then it seems more justifiable to take out those loans. of course it is extremely stressful knowing that i have to do well in school otherwise risk being an indentured servant etc., but ITE everything is stressful....any job i would have gotten had i not gone to law school would have been unstable, never knowing when you'd be laid off or when your job might become unnecessary etc. So it's not like the alternative was that much more appealing to me. I think all of this went into justifying the obscene loan in my mind...but maybe I'm just as much as an idiot as the guy in the article.

this made sense to me, well said.

[ResolutePear]

Yeah, but teacher retention is always an issue anyways.

Down here in Miami, have a JD or PhD nets you 8-10k more on your salary - so even coming out 40k in debt, it'd pay off in 5 years. Kinda seems like a worse case scenario when I look at it like that.

I figured I could go back to teaching if worse came to worse, but then just as I began law school, a lot of school districts implemented hiring freezes. I could probably scramble for a job since I have a decent amount of experience, but finding a job in teaching would not be as easy as I anticipated when I made the decision to go to law school. Once OCI rolled around, I really did feel like it was biglaw or bust. I know that $40K is not a ton of money, but it's my signature on the promissory note, and I'm not going to end up in some NYT article for taking on enormous debt. Fuck that. I'll pay my own debt without whining to the whole world about it, thank you very much.

Yeah, the last thing I would want to do is out myself as unsuccessful. Would the opportunity to discuss salary come up in the future, I wouldn't want the employer to know that I'm a debt-ridden, media-hugging bastard.

[Drake014]

I'd like to point out the most important point that everyone should take away from this article:

If you allow anyone to borrow lots of money, lots of stupid people will do so. It doesn't matter what its for, maybe its a house, car, or degree. The point is, allowing the vast majority of the population to borrow huge amounts of money will result in lots of people being in serious debt.

Unfortunately, proving that law school students aren't the best policy makers, people on these message boards constantly bitch about how we should limit the number of law schools. Returning to the age of guilds is not the solution to this problem. The simple solution is to stop allowing anyone to borrow huge amounts of money for advanced degrees. Allow students to discharge debts through bankruptcy. Don't have the government guarantee 100% of loans (maybe having the government guarantee a fractions might be a better idea). If lenders have to face consequences for making bad loans, they'll stop lending money to idiots. Right now we've completely destroyed capitalistic mechanisms from the student loan process. Lenders can make bad loans and borrowers can borrow themselves stupid.

Umm the problem is that we dont want capitalistic mechanisms for the student loan process. That would essentially limit the access of people from underprivileged backgrounds no matter what their potential. I said this before, but I believe any effort to limit federal funding should be done by limiting the access of underperforming schools based on a developed standard. We should most definitely NOT leave the whole thing up to private lenders.

I did not say leave the whole thing up to private lenders. In fact, I suggested the government guarantee part of the loans lent by private lenders. This would encourage them to lend to a wider array of applicants than they otherwise would but would still make it so that some of their own money was at risk so that they didn't lend to students who had no hope sof paying them back, which is the case now. And yes, we do want capitalistic mechanisms in the loan process. But like all capitalism, it needs to be regulated and guided by the government.

[kk19131]

It's criminal that Harvard has a $1.7 billion endowment (larger than many whole university systems) and somehow manages to leave its graduates with an average of $113,000 of debt.

[Drake014]

hmm.. good find. I knew I should not have had faith in our journalists.

Isn't it sad when we do more checking than the person who wrote the article?

So in short, I guess I'd have to go the "biglaw or bust" route, not because I want "models and bottles" or to drive a Bentley, but because the skewed nature of law salaries means that biglaw is just about the only way that law becomes a better financial option than the ones I already have.

+1

A lot of people get criticized on these forums for the "biglaw or bust" mentality, but when tuition is so freakin' high, I don't see any other way to make law school a profitable decision.

LRAP. But yeah, I get your point. And yeah, I'm heading to Biglaw myself it would seem.

[ResolutePear]

It's criminal that Harvard has a $1.7 billion endowment (larger than many whole university systems) and somehow manages to leave its graduates with an average of $113,000 of debt.

Schools want you to have something *invested* in your education - hence forcing you to do the best possible.

On the off chance that you did and you're still boned, they have a really good LRAP. I have little doubt it's paid for by that endowment.

[kk19131]

It's criminal that Harvard has a $1.7 billion endowment (larger than many whole university systems) and somehow manages to leave its graduates with an average of $113,000 of debt.

Schools want you to have something *invested* in your education - hence forcing you to do the best possible.

On the off chance that you did and you're still boned, they have a really good LRAP. I have little doubt it's paid for by that endowment.

That could only work to "force" students to do their best when the economy is great.

There is no reason why, in a bad economy, a school with a $1.7 billion endowment is still forcing its students to take out astronomical loans.

[ResolutePear]

It's criminal that Harvard has a $1.7 billion endowment (larger than many whole university systems) and somehow manages to leave its graduates with an average of $113,000 of debt.

Schools want you to have something *invested* in your education - hence forcing you to do the best possible.

On the off chance that you did and you're still boned, they have a really good LRAP. I have little doubt it's paid for by that endowment.

That could only work to "force" students to do their best when the economy is great.

There is no reason why, in a bad economy, a school with a $1.7 billion endowment is still forcing its students to take out astronomical loans.

Yes there is. Why should other lawyers/alumni pay your way through school when they had to pay themselves?

Even in a bad economy, Harvard is a pretty sure thing from what I hear.

I'm sorry - but even ITE, I'd pay 300k for Harvard. There's a very good reason why Harvard has a $1.7 billion endowment - and that reason doesn't include many unemployed/underpaid lawyers.

[ScottRiqui]

hmm.. good find. I knew I should not have had faith in our journalists.

Isn't it sad when we do more checking than the person who wrote the article?

So in short, I guess I'd have to go the "biglaw or bust" route, not because I want "models and bottles" or to drive a Bentley, but because the skewed nature of law salaries means that biglaw is just about the only way that law becomes a better financial option than the ones I already have.

+1

A lot of people get criticized on these forums for the "biglaw or bust" mentality, but when tuition is so freakin' high, I don't see any other way to make law school a profitable decision.

LRAP. But yeah, I get your point. And yeah, I'm heading to Biglaw myself it would seem.

LRAP and similar loan-forgiveness programs are fine, if you're taking out loans and you really didn't have any prospects for pulling down > $50k/year without law school. But if you have no loans for the government to pay off and you passed up a career in another field that would have paid $80-90k/year without any additional schooling, all you're left with if you don't get Biglaw is a low-paying job and three years' worth of lost income.