Is Law School a Losing Game?

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NoJob
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Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby NoJob » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:00 pm


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NZA
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby NZA » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:02 pm

NoJob wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?_r=1&src=busln


Just read this a half an hour ago.

I don't usually say things like this, but...Thomas Jefferson law graduate does not have job = news?

At first, I felt sorry for him. But he comes across as such an idiot throughout the article my pity for him whithered away to outright disgust.

The parts in the article about rigging the stats were interesting, though. Well worth the read.

NoJob
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby NoJob » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:10 pm

NZA wrote:
NoJob wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?_r=1&src=busln


Just read this a half an hour ago.

I don't usually say things like this, but...Thomas Jefferson law graduate does not have job = news?

At first, I felt sorry for him. But he comes across as such an idiot throughout the article my pity for him whithered away to outright disgust.

The parts in the article about rigging the stats were interesting, though. Well worth the read.


I think this speaks volumes as to what law students are for universities, i.e. a cheap source of revenue.

And the Times is certainly a more credible source than a scamblogger.

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NZA
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby NZA » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:12 pm

NoJob wrote:I think this speaks volumes as to what law students are for universities, i.e. a cheap source of revenue.

And the Times is certainly a more credible source than a scamblogger.


I was thinking about that, too...the part where they mention that enrolling 25 students can mean a million dollars in tuition blew my mind. I'd never really thought of that before.

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Cara
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Cara » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:14 pm

It is a good article. While many schools are little more than scams it's hard to feel too sorry for the idiot who went to Thomas Jefferson on zero research, lived the high life on borrowed money and now wonders why he is unemployed and drowning in debt.

The suggestion of simply closing down the worst schools is a good one. The bottom 100 or so would be a good start.

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AreJay711
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby AreJay711 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:14 pm

NZA wrote:
NoJob wrote:I think this speaks volumes as to what law students are for universities, i.e. a cheap source of revenue.

And the Times is certainly a more credible source than a scamblogger.


I was thinking about that, too...the part where they mention that enrolling 25 students can mean a million dollars in tuition blew my mind. I'd never really thought of that before.

Some law schools spend more per student than tuition. Definitely all of the t14.

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NZA
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby NZA » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:15 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
NZA wrote:
NoJob wrote:I think this speaks volumes as to what law students are for universities, i.e. a cheap source of revenue.

And the Times is certainly a more credible source than a scamblogger.


I was thinking about that, too...the part where they mention that enrolling 25 students can mean a million dollars in tuition blew my mind. I'd never really thought of that before.

Some law schools spend more per student than tuition. Definitely all of the t14.


Oh, no doubt. I was thinking more of the TTT schools that can become diploma mills.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:16 pm

NZA wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:
NZA wrote:
NoJob wrote:I think this speaks volumes as to what law students are for universities, i.e. a cheap source of revenue.

And the Times is certainly a more credible source than a scamblogger.


I was thinking about that, too...the part where they mention that enrolling 25 students can mean a million dollars in tuition blew my mind. I'd never really thought of that before.

Some law schools spend more per student than tuition. Definitely all of the t14.


Oh, no doubt. I was thinking more of the TTT schools that can become diploma mills.


Even when factoring in endowments?

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JG Hall
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby JG Hall » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:30 pm

You live rent-free and still can't come up with any cash to start paying down your loans? You're a moron. Start bartending or something.

plum
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby plum » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:30 pm

i was surprised to see a CLS student interviewed as one of the struggling. overall the article was mad depressing.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:32 pm

good article, though as the first responder said...Wallerstein seems like an inept fool

most ppl who go to law schools do not do their research (same for housing crisis...raising kids...lol almost any large investment in this country -- it is sort of human nature i suppose) and really, to expect a bailout for a mistake YOU made? ive always had 0 pity for those individuals, though i guess on some level i do at least believe in second chances (contingent on ppl actually learning something from the process...like how they should do their research in the future).

nevertheless, the way the stats are manipulated is disgusting, and is def something that should be fixed or at least monitored. it does seem somewhat unethical and at least misleading. its a thin veil of deceit, but a veil nonetheless.

spartanlaw
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby spartanlaw » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:33 pm

The things that really made me hate the guy:

1. wife does not want him to work long hours at a corporate job (it's a job you idiot and you are in debt)
2. quitting the small firm job because he did not want to kiss the partner's butt (it's a job you idiot and you are in debt)
3. thinking that tax payers will bail him out

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:34 pm

spartanlaw wrote:The things that really made me hate the guy:

1. wife does not want him to work long hours at a corporate job (it's a job you idiot and you are in debt)
2. quitting the small firm job because he did not want to kiss the partner's butt (it's a job you idiot and you are in debt)
3. thinking that tax payers will bail him out


also, dont forget the ridiculous amounts of money he spent doing 'unnecessary' things...all w/ the notion that eh, its not like they can jail him, he'll just not pay it back

it's like he's a thief that got stolen from hahaha

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albusdumbledore
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby albusdumbledore » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:41 pm

In short, most people make stupid financial decisions. It isn't monopoly money kids.

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swfangirl
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby swfangirl » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:46 pm

Before y'all dismiss this because the main person discussed in the article went to a T4 school, consider this:

Jason Bohn is earning $33 an hour as a legal temp while strapped to more than $200,000 in loans, a sizable chunk of which he accumulated during his time at Columbia University, where he finished both a J.D. and a master’s degree.
Last edited by swfangirl on Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

amonynous_ivdinidual
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby amonynous_ivdinidual » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:46 pm

the comment about closing law schools/limiting enrollments would run afoul of antitrust laws caught my attention. why is it ok for the AMA to regulate med schools in this way, but the ABA would be precluded by antitrust rules? sounds fishy to me. the ABA should restore some prestige and integrity to its profession, and here is step 1- take the bottom 50 law schools (by whatever metric the ABA wants to use) out back and shoot them. then tell law schools 101-150 that it's open season on them. after a 5-10 year period the top 25 performers of these schools (again, pick your metric, but i say LEGITIMATE job reports for grads are a good start) will be allowed to remain open.

then, strictly limit the numbers of students law schools can enroll, not unlike the approach the AMA takes.

the profession could survive on 125 law schools.

let's step outside the box of supply/demand and fix what's obviously broken. we do it all the time, and the market endures, so please don't warn me of the imminent demise of the free market if these measures were taken. i don't really care. i'd rather have a job.

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Knock
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby Knock » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:47 pm

The guy who paid sticker at the T14 was not exactly being fiscally responsible:

He also spent a month studying in the South of France and a month in Prague — all on borrowed money.


“There are a bunch of others,” he says. “I’m not really good at keeping records.”


MR. WALLERSTEIN, for his part, is not complaining. Once you throw in the intangibles of having a J.D., he says, he is one of law schools’ satisfied customers.

“It’s a prestige thing,” he says. “I’m an attorney. All of my friends see me as a person they look up to. They understand I’m in a lot of debt, but I’ve done something they feel they could never do and the respect and admiration is important.”


“Bank bailouts, company bailouts — I don’t know, we’re the generation of bailouts,” he says in a hallway during a break from his Peak Discovery job. “And like, this debt of mine is just sort of, it’s a little illusory. I feel like at some point, I’ll negotiate it away, or they won’t collect it.”


:x. :x :x

The part about the Columbia graduate is pretty depressing though :|.
Last edited by Knock on Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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albusdumbledore
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby albusdumbledore » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:50 pm

swfangirl wrote:Before y'all dismiss this because the main person discussed in the article went to a T4 school, consider this:

"Jason Bohn is earning $33 an hour as a legal temp while strapped to more than $200,000 in loans, a sizable chunk of which he accumulated during his time at Columbia University, where he finished both a J.D. and a master’s degree.
"


I'm not dismissing that. 200K for a degree, yes even one from Columbia, isn't a wise decision. Or at least it isn't one I'd be willing to make.

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JG Hall
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby JG Hall » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:54 pm

amonynous_ivdinidual wrote:the comment about closing law schools/limiting enrollments would run afoul of antitrust laws caught my attention. why is it ok for the AMA to regulate med schools in this way, but the ABA would be precluded by antitrust rules? sounds fishy to me. the ABA should restore some prestige and integrity to its profession, and here is step 1- take the bottom 50 law schools (by whatever metric the ABA wants to use) out back and shoot them. then tell law schools 101-150 that it's open season on them. after a 5-10 year period the top 25 performers of these schools (again, pick your metric, but i say LEGITIMATE job reports for grads are a good start) will be allowed to remain open.

then, strictly limit the numbers of students law schools can enroll, not unlike the approach the AMA takes.

the profession could survive on 125 law schools.

let's step outside the box of supply/demand and fix what's obviously broken. we do it all the time, and the market endures, so please don't warn me of the imminent demise of the free market if these measures were taken. i don't really care. i'd rather have a job.

http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/press ... 216804.htm

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icouldbuyu
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby icouldbuyu » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:54 pm

swfangirl wrote:Before y'all dismiss this because the main person discussed in the article went to a T4 school, consider this:

Jason Bohn is earning $33 an hour as a legal temp while strapped to more than $200,000 in loans, a sizable chunk of which he accumulated during his time at Columbia University, where he finished both a J.D. and a master’s degree.


I just looked this guy up on linkedin and I found him. His masters is in some useless liberal arts concentration. Additionally, based on his profile pic, he looks like he's in his 30's, which the article states is a handicapp. Is it possible that completing a MA/JD jointly resulted in bad grades, thus no big law offers? Just trying to make sense of this person's circumstances.

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123xalady
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby 123xalady » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:57 pm

Jason Bohn must have really f*cked up to be in the position he's in, no?

That Wallernstein guy. Ugh. What are we going to do with people like that? He is impossibly arrogant, entitled and yet also seems to have 2 brain cells firing in his head.

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ScottRiqui
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ScottRiqui » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:58 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
NZA wrote:
NoJob wrote:I think this speaks volumes as to what law students are for universities, i.e. a cheap source of revenue.

And the Times is certainly a more credible source than a scamblogger.


I was thinking about that, too...the part where they mention that enrolling 25 students can mean a million dollars in tuition blew my mind. I'd never really thought of that before.

Some law schools spend more per student than tuition. Definitely all of the t14.


I'm glad you brought this up. I've always wondered how law schools spend their money.

For things like engineering/science and medicine, I can see where the expenses come from at a big university-affiliated research lab, or a teaching hospital, but where does the $150-200k per student go in a law school? Professors and books?

(I realize that most students aren't paying sticker, and that's it's more than *just* professors and books, but there has to be something big that I'm not even thinking of.)
Last edited by ScottRiqui on Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby ResolutePear » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:59 pm

So guys, let me get this straight:

You guys want a 100% employment rate when the nation's hovering over a 10% unemployment average?

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JazzOne
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby JazzOne » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:00 pm

amonynous_ivdinidual wrote:the comment about closing law schools/limiting enrollments would run afoul of antitrust laws caught my attention. why is it ok for the AMA to regulate med schools in this way, but the ABA would be precluded by antitrust rules? sounds fishy to me. the ABA should restore some prestige and integrity to its profession, and here is step 1- take the bottom 50 law schools (by whatever metric the ABA wants to use) out back and shoot them. then tell law schools 101-150 that it's open season on them. after a 5-10 year period the top 25 performers of these schools (again, pick your metric, but i say LEGITIMATE job reports for grads are a good start) will be allowed to remain open.

then, strictly limit the numbers of students law schools can enroll, not unlike the approach the AMA takes.

the profession could survive on 125 law schools.

let's step outside the box of supply/demand and fix what's obviously broken. we do it all the time, and the market endures, so please don't warn me of the imminent demise of the free market if these measures were taken. i don't really care. i'd rather have a job.

+1

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NZA
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Re: Is Law School a Losing Game?

Postby NZA » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:00 pm

ResolutePear wrote:So guys, let me get this straight:

You guys want a 100% employment rate when the nation's hovering over a 10% unemployment average?


I think it's more that people want more transparency when it comes to the USNWR rankings, OR, less of an emphasis on those rankings on account of their shadiness.

I would settle for reasonably priced undergraduate/post-graduate education for the world's wealthiest nation.




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