Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

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AreJay711
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:48 pm

Desert Fox wrote:2009 is an unrepresentative year to use data from. Schools that place more into NYC got hammered. It's why Northwestern had the most big law hires. That isn't the case in reality, and certainly won't be for class of 2012, 13 or 14.

Also, wasn't NYC just about as competitive as every other market that year? The important thing is a schools ability to take you where you want to go not absolute numbers which influenced by several factors. I personally think the peer assessment score is most important for my (likely soon to be crushed) goals but no doubt the most important metric will be different for different people.

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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:10 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:2009 is an unrepresentative year to use data from. Schools that place more into NYC got hammered. It's why Northwestern had the most big law hires. That isn't the case in reality, and certainly won't be for class of 2012, 13 or 14.

Also, wasn't NYC just about as competitive as every other market that year? The important thing is a schools ability to take you where you want to go not absolute numbers which influenced by several factors. I personally think the peer assessment score is most important for my (likely soon to be crushed) goals but no doubt the most important metric will be different for different people.


USNews assessment scores are pretty bogus too.

These schools are all peers. Seriously. Like RVP said earlier their cutoffs are the same at firms that recruit at them. Even if quaker could prove that Duke places 3% better than Michigan who the fuck cares.

Region is much more important. If you are going to NYC, then go Penn unless another school gives you money.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:11 pm

Guys, it's really not that hard. Just look back at quakeroats' posts and you'll find a well-crafted, consistent, and empirically proven rationale for why Duke >>>> SCCNMVPBCNG.

quakeroats wrote:My favorite stat this year is SCOTUS placements by class size:

Yale: 4%
Harvard and Duke 1-1.5%ish
Everyone else: < 1%


quakeroats wrote:SCOTUS clerks are so few and far between that the only real inference seems to be that Yale beats everyone else.

See? Isn't it obvious?


That quote makes me laugh every single time, and I'm going to post it on these boards every time you start with this asinine drivel. In all seriousness, the difference between the schools is marginal, and Duke is a great school. I don't know what it tells you that MVPB students tend to respond with a "they're all great schools, choose which one you'd be happy at," while Quakeroats has responses like "No, go to Duke. Seriously, fuck Stanford, Duke is the best," but I personally feel bad for the other Duke posters on this board who are associated with this ridiculously stupid and annoying trolling.

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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:16 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:2009 is an unrepresentative year to use data from. Schools that place more into NYC got hammered. It's why Northwestern had the most big law hires. That isn't the case in reality, and certainly won't be for class of 2012, 13 or 14.

Also, wasn't NYC just about as competitive as every other market that year? The important thing is a schools ability to take you where you want to go not absolute numbers which influenced by several factors. I personally think the peer assessment score is most important for my (likely soon to be crushed) goals but no doubt the most important metric will be different for different people.


During Class of 09's OCI NYC firms hired liberally. But during the summer of '08 the firms saw work load drop like a rock because of the economy and they no offered a shit ton of SA's. This means that students from say UChi took SA's that eventually didn't lead to jobs while they turned down offers that would have led to jobs in other markets. They had no way of knowing this at the time.

This is all just an exercise in dickwaving.

Go to the MVPDNC that gives you more money.

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buckilaw
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby buckilaw » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:29 pm

quakeroats wrote: Look at the numbers for their entering class...


Michigan tends to have a more holistic admissions process than most other schools in the T14. If Michigan wanted to match Duke's medians it is likely that they could easily do so.

http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/0910/

Take a look at the LSAT/GPA of people they waitlisted.


If you take a look at Duke's graph from the same year it looks as though after a certain index score applicants were almost always admitted.

http://duke.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/0910/

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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:31 pm

buckilaw wrote:
quakeroats wrote: Look at the numbers for their entering class...


Michigan tends to have a more holistic admissions process than most other schools in the T14. If Michigan wanted to match Duke's medians it is likely that they could easily do so.

http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/0910/

Take a look at the LSAT/GPA of people they waitlisted.


If you take a look at Duke's graph from the same year it looks as though after a certain index score applicants were almost always admitted.

http://duke.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/0910/


If by holistic you mean yield protecting then yes.

Michigan's problem is Ann Arbor.

Though this should be a Michigan selling point. It's got a worse student body numbers wise than it's peers with no dip in job prospects. Makes getting a job slightly easier.

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buckilaw
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby buckilaw » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:32 pm

I doubt YP accounts for the entire WL.

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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:33 pm

buckilaw wrote:I doubt YP accounts for the entire WL.


I bet it does.

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IAFG
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby IAFG » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:43 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
buckilaw wrote:I doubt YP accounts for the entire WL.


I bet it does.

Eh Zearfoss does admit people according to her dinner-party admissions philosophy

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AreJay711
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:44 pm

Ehh idk. The 25th and 75th numbers make it look like Michigan could manipulate their numbers more if they wanted. I think they do some things that I know I wouldn't do if I was making the decisions -- like giving me a scholarship when I was already in ED (though I was obviously happy).

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IAFG
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby IAFG » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:48 pm

AreJay711 wrote:Ehh idk. The 25th and 75th numbers make it look like Michigan could manipulate their numbers more if they wanted. I think they do some things that I know I wouldn't do if I was making the decisions -- like giving me a scholarship when I was already in ED (though I was obviously happy).

Northwestern did that too and no one is going to argue we aren't total numbers whores

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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:53 pm

AreJay711 wrote:Ehh idk. The 25th and 75th numbers make it look like Michigan could manipulate their numbers more if they wanted. I think they do some things that I know I wouldn't do if I was making the decisions -- like giving me a scholarship when I was already in ED (though I was obviously happy).


The WL a lot more people with good numbers than they do to people with mediocre numbers. It's YP. There is no reason why 3.8+/169 almost all get in, when 3.8/172 get half waitlisted.

They also have the third highest acceptance rate of any t14 despite also having the third worst numbers. They aren't being holistic, they are desperate.

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AreJay711
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:55 pm

IAFG wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:Ehh idk. The 25th and 75th numbers make it look like Michigan could manipulate their numbers more if they wanted. I think they do some things that I know I wouldn't do if I was making the decisions -- like giving me a scholarship when I was already in ED (though I was obviously happy).

Northwestern did that too and no one is going to argue we aren't total numbers whores


Well NU could have better number too then. I was just talking about the 25th-Median range of 168-169-171. It just seems weird how tightly clustered that compared to some peer schools.

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IAFG
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby IAFG » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:14 am

AreJay711 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:Ehh idk. The 25th and 75th numbers make it look like Michigan could manipulate their numbers more if they wanted. I think they do some things that I know I wouldn't do if I was making the decisions -- like giving me a scholarship when I was already in ED (though I was obviously happy).

Northwestern did that too and no one is going to argue we aren't total numbers whores


Well NU could have better number too then. I was just talking about the 25th-Median range of 168-169-171. It just seems weird how tightly clustered that compared to some peer schools.

I think that proves DF's point more than yours

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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:37 am

Desert Fox wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:Ehh idk. The 25th and 75th numbers make it look like Michigan could manipulate their numbers more if they wanted. I think they do some things that I know I wouldn't do if I was making the decisions -- like giving me a scholarship when I was already in ED (though I was obviously happy).


The WL a lot more people with good numbers than they do to people with mediocre numbers. It's YP. There is no reason why 3.8+/169 almost all get in, when 3.8/172 get half waitlisted.

They also have the third highest acceptance rate of any t14 despite also having the third worst numbers. They aren't being holistic, they are desperate.

Desperate might be a touch harsh, don't you think?

Do any other schools in the T14 actually give scholarships to students who have been admitted through ED? Michigan could quite easily take that funding away from committed students and use it to lure in RD applicants with higher numbers, but instead Dean Z prefers to take care of the students that she feels are legitimately excited to add something to our student body and the Michigan community. She most certainly does not need to provide those scholarships to ED admits, but I think that's the type of culture Michigan fosters. Call that sappy, but it's also true; one of the last things I'd call it, however, is desperate.

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beachbum
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby beachbum » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:58 am

This entire thread has been bickering over semantics and minute differences, leading me to believe that MVPDN are indeed peers, or we're all just really annoying.

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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby mikey101 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:24 am

beachbum wrote:This entire thread has been bickering over semantics and minute differences, leading me to believe that MVPDN are indeed peers, or we're all just really annoying.


+1

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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby IAFG » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:26 am

FlightoftheEarls wrote:Desperate might be a touch harsh, don't you think?

Do any other schools in the T14 actually give scholarships to students who have been admitted through ED? Michigan could quite easily take that funding away from committed students and use it to lure in RD applicants with higher numbers, but instead Dean Z prefers to take care of the students that she feels are legitimately excited to add something to our student body and the Michigan community. She most certainly does not need to provide those scholarships to ED admits, but I think that's the type of culture Michigan fosters. Call that sappy, but it's also true; one of the last things I'd call it, however, is desperate.

NU gave my ED friend scholly money. And NU is one of the colder admissions office. I bet the other t14s do sometimes too. UVA comes to mind.

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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:14 am

IAFG wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:Desperate might be a touch harsh, don't you think?

Do any other schools in the T14 actually give scholarships to students who have been admitted through ED? Michigan could quite easily take that funding away from committed students and use it to lure in RD applicants with higher numbers, but instead Dean Z prefers to take care of the students that she feels are legitimately excited to add something to our student body and the Michigan community. She most certainly does not need to provide those scholarships to ED admits, but I think that's the type of culture Michigan fosters. Call that sappy, but it's also true; one of the last things I'd call it, however, is desperate.

NU gave my ED friend scholly money. And NU is one of the colder admissions office. I bet the other t14s do sometimes too. UVA comes to mind.


I assume it's a problem with whoever dolls out the financial aid don't know who is ED or not.

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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:14 am

beachbum wrote:This entire thread has been bickering over semantics and minute differences, leading me to believe that MVPDN are indeed peers, or we're all just really annoying.


Both are true.

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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby IAFG » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:16 am

Desert Fox wrote:
I assume it's a problem with whoever dolls out the financial aid don't know who is ED or not.

Oh please they are not going to be that stupid with tens of thousands of dollars

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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:23 am

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:Ehh idk. The 25th and 75th numbers make it look like Michigan could manipulate their numbers more if they wanted. I think they do some things that I know I wouldn't do if I was making the decisions -- like giving me a scholarship when I was already in ED (though I was obviously happy).


The WL a lot more people with good numbers than they do to people with mediocre numbers. It's YP. There is no reason why 3.8+/169 almost all get in, when 3.8/172 get half waitlisted.

They also have the third highest acceptance rate of any t14 despite also having the third worst numbers. They aren't being holistic, they are desperate.

Desperate might be a touch harsh, don't you think?

Do any other schools in the T14 actually give scholarships to students who have been admitted through ED? Michigan could quite easily take that funding away from committed students and use it to lure in RD applicants with higher numbers, but instead Dean Z prefers to take care of the students that she feels are legitimately excited to add something to our student body and the Michigan community. She most certainly does not need to provide those scholarships to ED admits, but I think that's the type of culture Michigan fosters. Call that sappy, but it's also true; one of the last things I'd call it, however, is desperate.



Go on LSN. Michigan has fairly predictable admissions behaviors, including YP. That "culture" they foster is bullshit designed to sell you on Michigan. It's about as real as the "NorthwesTTTern Difference."

Michigan is desperate to attract top students. And it's almost assuredly because of it's location. Cornell has the exact same problem. It's no shock that other schools don't really have a problem getting 50% 170s. Hell Northwestern does it and it WL's anyone without work experience.

I would have been happy to spend three years at Michigan, but a lot of east and west coasters would rather die than spend three years in what they consider the rural midwest ( I know it isn't but that is the perception).

I think YP is a stupid policy, but Michigan doesn't want to look stupid with a 30% admission rate.

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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:25 am

IAFG wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
I assume it's a problem with whoever dolls out the financial aid don't know who is ED or not.

Oh please they are not going to be that stupid with tens of thousands of dollars


It is far more stupid to give merit aid to people under contract to attend.

I can very easily see financial aid being up to a different person than the person who does admissions, and there not being a demarcation of who is ED and who isn't.

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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby megaTTTron » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:26 am

Cavalier wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
BoomBoom1986 wrote:for career prospects? Or are MVP generally regarded as >>> Duke + NU


For New York: Penn/Duke > UVA/Northwestern >> Michigan

For D.C.: Duke/UVA > Penn/Northwestern >> Michigan

Are you retarded?


Hahah. Sorry for reviving this, but I just laughed so hard.

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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby T6Hopeful » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:58 am

Desert Fox wrote:
Go to the MVPDNC that gives you more money.

I'd be inclined to agree with this, even though I'm a 0L. Although I would add to also factor in which one you feel is the best fit for you.




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