Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

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BoomBoom1986
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby BoomBoom1986 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:59 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
BoomBoom1986 wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:
BoomBoom1986 wrote:Yeah, that seems like a good thing.

It isn't terrible except that so many people need them. (edit: Which was the point of comment)


Well how many? And more importantly, are employment prospects better at Michigan, Penn and UVA than at Duke?

Idk, quaker is the only one who I have seen that says Duke is on par. NU is but not necessarily because of the strength of the school but possibly because of the WE students have. I find this decently compelling:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=108528 - A clerkship + Biglaw composite someone on TLS made.

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf -Go to school list


Well it certainly seems to be on Penn's level -- and not far off from the rest!

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AreJay711
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:01 pm

BoomBoom1986 wrote:
Well it certainly seems to be on Penn's level -- and not far off from the rest!

Yeah you are right. I should have said that Duke isn't any better. It is pretty close.

09042014
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:33 pm

The difference in overall big law placement is minor amongst MVPBDNC. In fact the small class sizes of NDC sometimes lead to better employment prospects on average. But still it's so fucking slight it won't make a difference.

It's a mistake to use 2009 NLJ data. Those people did OCI in 2007, and then NYC firms no offered while the rest of the country doesn't.

Regions has a bigger impact on job placement for the individual. You should probably got to UVA or Duke for the south, Northwestern for Chicago, Penn or Cornell for NYC, Michigan for Detriot.

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AreJay711
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:40 pm

Desert Fox wrote: Michigan for Detriot.

lol lets hope not

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RVP11
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby RVP11 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:43 pm

quakeroats wrote:
BoomBoom1986 wrote:for career prospects? Or are MVP generally regarded as >>> Duke + NU


For New York: Penn/Duke > UVA/Northwestern >> Michigan

For D.C.: Duke/UVA > Penn/Northwestern >> Michigan


So, what exactly is your basis for these rankings?

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Bronte
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby Bronte » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:46 pm

Man we need to get some Michigan trolls on here to clean this shit up. I know the UVA and NU trolls don't slack, but when did you guys let Duke trolls get an upper hand on TLS? Damn, and quakeroats is a hack to boot.

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Bronte
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby Bronte » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:51 pm

Also:

Desert Fox wrote:Regions has a bigger impact on job placement for the individual. You should probably got to UVA or Duke for the south, UofC (or NorthwesTTTern if you can't get in) for Chicago, Penn or Cornell for NYC, Michigan for all major markets.


Fixt.

09042014
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:52 pm

Bronte wrote:Also:

Desert Fox wrote:Regions has a bigger impact on job placement for the individual. You should probably got to UVA or Duke for the south, UofC (or NorthwesTTTern if you can't get in) for Chicago, Penn or Cornell for NYC, Michigan for all major markets.


Fixt.


UofC is MVP peer trolling? If so I'm on board.

UofC students always go to NYC.

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Bronte
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby Bronte » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:56 pm

Desert Fox wrote:UofC is MVP peer trolling? If so I'm on board.

UofC students always go to NYC.


And take scraps from CCN?

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quakeroats
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby quakeroats » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:08 pm

RVP11 wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
BoomBoom1986 wrote:for career prospects? Or are MVP generally regarded as >>> Duke + NU


For New York: Penn/Duke > UVA/Northwestern >> Michigan

For D.C.: Duke/UVA > Penn/Northwestern >> Michigan


So, what exactly is your basis for these rankings?


Look at my prior posts. I go through all the data available, i.e., self-reported data from TLS, Clerkship data, school-released data, the old clerkship and firm data from 2006 posted on a blog, all the other organizations that release firm data, and a modified version of Brian Leiter's survey of top law firms. Several people disagree with my surveys (usually with cogent critiques like, "that's bullshit"), but even without those Duke and Penn still do better than Virginia in NYC and Michigan does much worse than all three. I've put my case forward several times. Look at my prior posts.

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Bronte
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby Bronte » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:20 pm

quakeroats wrote:Look at my prior posts. I go through all the data available, i.e., self-reported data from TLS, Clerkship data, school-released data, the old clerkship and firm data from 2006 posted on a blog, all the other organizations that release firm data, and a modified version of Brian Leiter's survey of top law firms. Several people disagree with my surveys (usually with cogent critiques like, "that's bullshit"), but even without those Duke and Penn still do better than Virginia in NYC and Michigan does much worse than all three. I've put my case forward several times. Look at my prior posts.


No one wants to comb through your posts and find where you've made this argument. You aren't Al Gore; you can't just say, "Refer to my previous work." I can tell you the problem with your "study" right now: there's no reliable data. Anywhere. Mashing together unreliable data from multiple sources only makes it worse. Did you check for statistically significant differences in your results, or did you just rank schools based on two percentage point differences that are the result of statistical noise?

The truth is that you go to Duke, I go to Michigan, DF goes to NU, Cavalier goes to UVA, and we're all trolling for our schools, which are all peers. How do I know you're trolling? Observe:

quakeroats wrote:For New York: Penn/Duke > UVA/Northwestern >> Michigan

For D.C.: Duke/UVA > Penn/Northwestern >> Michigan

quakeroats wrote:As for Michigan, it's been on it's way out for 30 years. Right now it places about as well as Cornell. In another 30 years it will be Boston College without a major market.

quakeroats wrote:It's 19 degrees and snowing in Ann Arbor.


C'mon man. Don't pretend you back this tripe with statistics.

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quakeroats
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby quakeroats » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:27 pm

Bronte wrote:
quakeroats wrote:Look at my prior posts. I go through all the data available, i.e., self-reported data from TLS, Clerkship data, school-released data, the old clerkship and firm data from 2006 posted on a blog, all the other organizations that release firm data, and a modified version of Brian Leiter's survey of top law firms. Several people disagree with my surveys (usually with cogent critiques like, "that's bullshit"), but even without those Duke and Penn still do better than Virginia in NYC and Michigan does much worse than all three. I've put my case forward several times. Look at my prior posts.


No one wants to comb through your posts and find where you've made this argument. You aren't Al Gore; you can't just say, "Refer to my previous work." I can tell you the problem with your "study" right now: there's no reliable data. Anywhere. Mashing together unreliable data from multiple sources only makes it worse. Did you check for statistically significant differences in your results, or did you just rank schools based on two percentage point differences that are the result of statistical noise?

The truth is that you go to Duke, I go to Michigan, DF goes to NU, Cavalier goes to UVA, and we're all trolling for our schools, which are all peers. How do I know you're trolling? Observe:

quakeroats wrote:For New York: Penn/Duke > UVA/Northwestern >> Michigan

For D.C.: Duke/UVA > Penn/Northwestern >> Michigan

quakeroats wrote:As for Michigan, it's been on it's way out for 30 years. Right now it places about as well as Cornell. In another 30 years it will be Boston College without a major market.

quakeroats wrote:It's 19 degrees and snowing in Ann Arbor.


C'mon man. Don't pretend you back this tripe with statistics.


The Boston College remark is true. 30 years ago it was Harvard, Yale, and Michigan. Look at the numbers for their entering class, look at the difficulty they have attracting top professors, and their inability to place well in V10 firms in New York and their AIII clerkship issues. I'd argue that Michigan's fate is tied to the state as a whole. I'm sure Ann Arbor is nice, but the ship is sinking and I don't see it coming back any time soon.

It's also cold there, but that was a joke :)

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Bronte
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby Bronte » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:38 pm

quakeroats wrote:The Boston College remark is true. 30 years ago it was Harvard, Yale, and Michigan. Look at the numbers for their entering class, look at the difficulty they have attracting top professors, and their inability to place well in V10 firms in New York and their AIII clerkship issues. I'd argue that Michigan's fate is tied to the state as a whole. I'm sure Ann Arbor is nice, but the ship is sinking and I don't see it coming back any time soon.

It's also cold there, but that was a joke :)


Yeah the old Michigan in decline argument. Even though they've been right where they are their entire history. It was never Harvard, Yale, and Michigan dude. They were #3 for one year in USNWR before they changed the rankings formula. The only people who cite that fact are anti-Michigan trolls like yourself.

Michigan shows up right along with its peers in the NLJ surveys, other firm surveys, clerkship surveys, USNWR, and everything else. The numbers dance around from year to year, mostly as a result of statistical noise. There's HYS, CC, a handful of elite schools, and everybody else. Only those with ulterior motives think they can distinguish between MVPDN.

Edit: And lol at the "Boston College remark is true." It's a prediction for 30 years in the future! It's not true, it's asinine speculation.

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quakeroats
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby quakeroats » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:43 pm

Bronte wrote:
quakeroats wrote:The Boston College remark is true. 30 years ago it was Harvard, Yale, and Michigan. Look at the numbers for their entering class, look at the difficulty they have attracting top professors, and their inability to place well in V10 firms in New York and their AIII clerkship issues. I'd argue that Michigan's fate is tied to the state as a whole. I'm sure Ann Arbor is nice, but the ship is sinking and I don't see it coming back any time soon.

It's also cold there, but that was a joke :)


Yeah the old Michigan in decline argument. Even though they've been right where they are their entire history. It was never Harvard, Yale, and Michigan dude. They were #3 for one year in USNWR before they changed the rankings formula. The only people who cite that fact are anti-Michigan trolls like yourself.

Michigan shows up right along with its peers in the NLJ surveys, other firm surveys, clerkship surveys, USNWR, and everything else. The numbers dance around from year to year, mostly as a result of statistical noise. There's HYS, CC, a handful of elite schools, and everybody else. Only those with ulterior motives think they can distinguish between MVPDN.

Edit: And lol at the "Boston College remark is true." It's a prediction for 30 years in the future! It's not true, it's asinine speculation.


30 years ago there was no USNWR ranking. I've outlined the rest in prior posts. Feel free to do 10 minutes of research.

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Bronte
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby Bronte » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:48 pm

quakeroats wrote:30 years ago there was no USNWR ranking. I've outlined the rest in prior posts. Feel free to do 10 minutes of research.


Again, this prior posts crap is a cop out. As if you have some widely-known, unrefuted theory. Nobody's going to look through your prior posts. If you want people to believe you're quite clearly false assertions, you'll need to provide your proof again. Otherwise, can it, huh?

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Teoeo
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby Teoeo » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:52 pm

quakeroats wrote:
Bronte wrote:
quakeroats wrote:The Boston College remark is true. 30 years ago it was Harvard, Yale, and Michigan. Look at the numbers for their entering class, look at the difficulty they have attracting top professors, and their inability to place well in V10 firms in New York and their AIII clerkship issues. I'd argue that Michigan's fate is tied to the state as a whole. I'm sure Ann Arbor is nice, but the ship is sinking and I don't see it coming back any time soon.

It's also cold there, but that was a joke :)


Yeah the old Michigan in decline argument. Even though they've been right where they are their entire history. It was never Harvard, Yale, and Michigan dude. They were #3 for one year in USNWR before they changed the rankings formula. The only people who cite that fact are anti-Michigan trolls like yourself.

Michigan shows up right along with its peers in the NLJ surveys, other firm surveys, clerkship surveys, USNWR, and everything else. The numbers dance around from year to year, mostly as a result of statistical noise. There's HYS, CC, a handful of elite schools, and everybody else. Only those with ulterior motives think they can distinguish between MVPDN.

Edit: And lol at the "Boston College remark is true." It's a prediction for 30 years in the future! It's not true, it's asinine speculation.


30 years ago there was no USNWR ranking. I've outlined the rest in prior posts. Feel free to do 10 minutes of research.


I have completely refuted your argument to the point of making you look like an idiot. You can find my refutations if you go through my previous posts.

cavebat2000
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby cavebat2000 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:53 pm

Bronte wrote:
quakeroats wrote:30 years ago there was no USNWR ranking. I've outlined the rest in prior posts. Feel free to do 10 minutes of research.


Again, this prior posts crap is a cop out. As if you have some widely-known, unrefuted theory. Nobody's going to look through your prior posts. If you want people to believe you're quite clearly false assertions, you'll need to provide your proof again. Otherwise, can it, huh?


At least he has offered some actual evidence to back up his claims. What have you offered?

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RVP11
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby RVP11 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:54 pm

Quakeroats is an insufferable douche. See my prior posts for proof.

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quakeroats
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby quakeroats » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:56 pm

Bronte wrote:
quakeroats wrote:30 years ago there was no USNWR ranking. I've outlined the rest in prior posts. Feel free to do 10 minutes of research.


Again, this prior posts crap is a cop out. As if you have some widely-known, unrefuted theory. Nobody's going to look through your prior posts. If you want people to believe you're quite clearly false assertions, you'll need to provide your proof again. Otherwise, can it, huh?


My goal is to draw attention to widely believed but mistaken assumptions regarding school placement. You don't have much of a stake in what's correct, as you've already chosen a school, but for anyone else I'd say that crawling through 330 posts is easier than dropping 50k at Michigan.

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D-hops
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby D-hops » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:58 pm

quakeroats wrote:
Bronte wrote:
quakeroats wrote:30 years ago there was no USNWR ranking. I've outlined the rest in prior posts. Feel free to do 10 minutes of research.


Again, this prior posts crap is a cop out. As if you have some widely-known, unrefuted theory. Nobody's going to look through your prior posts. If you want people to believe you're quite clearly false assertions, you'll need to provide your proof again. Otherwise, can it, huh?


My goal is to draw attention to widely believed but mistaken assumptions regarding school placement. You don't have much of a stake in what's correct, as you've already chosen a school, but for anyone else I'd say that crawling through 330 posts is easier than dropping 50k at Michigan.


I dunno, it is really easy to get full COA loans from the government. I think the process took me about 20 minutes total.

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Teoeo
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby Teoeo » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:01 pm

A quick google search on NLJ 250 law firm placement, Michigan is #6 at 51% and Duke is #10 at 49.8% : http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

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RVP11
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby RVP11 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:03 pm

quakeroats wrote:My goal is to draw attention to widely believed but mistaken assumptions regarding school placement.


MVPBDCN(G?) being roughly equivalent is widely believed because it's not really mistaken. Having been through OCI, I'd find it very hard to believe that firms were drawing distinctions among these schools with their GPA cutoffs. The process isn't that finely tuned - I'd be shocked to find any NYC firm with a top 50% cutoff for Duke but a top 45% cutoff for Cornell or UVA, for example. That'd just be insane.

What I do believe makes a difference in statistics are: (1) self-selection of the students (which shouldn't worry anyone) and (2) things like grading system and bidding system (which notably affect UVA positively and Berkeley negatively, for instance, and should worry people).

cavebat2000
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby cavebat2000 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:05 pm

Teoeo wrote:A quick google search on NLJ 250 law firm placement, Michigan is #6 at 51% and Duke is #10 at 49.8% : http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1


And Harvard is #11... what is your point?

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quakeroats
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby quakeroats » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:06 pm

Teoeo wrote:A quick google search on NLJ 250 law firm placement, Michigan is #6 at 51% and Duke is #10 at 49.8% : http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1


1. That includes mostly non-Vault firms and doesn't note where the grad is practicing.
2. That doesn't include clerks

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Teoeo
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Re: Are Duke and Northwestern on par with MVP...

Postby Teoeo » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:07 pm

quakeroats wrote:
Teoeo wrote:A quick google search on NLJ 250 law firm placement, Michigan is #6 at 51% and Duke is #10 at 49.8% : http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1


1. That includes mostly non-Vault firms and doesn't note where the grad is practicing.
2. That doesn't include clerks


I know it doesn't include clerks, aren't we talking about firm placement?

edit: here is a vault survey among hiring partners - http://www.vault.com/wps/portal/usa/edu ... aw-ranking, michigan is #2 and duke is #12

edit #2: here is the SCOTUS clerkship rankings - http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2000 ... erks.shtml, michigan is#9 and duke is #18
Last edited by Teoeo on Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:13 pm, edited 5 times in total.




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