New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

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180orbust
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby 180orbust » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:09 pm

Ostrizr316 wrote:
That does seem true, I found it interesting; but what do you make of this?

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The data from the NALP Directory of Legal Employers shows 371 firms interviewing Penn graduates, whereas only 284 for Yale. What can we take from that?


If you're convinced by that kind of logic I've got a Cooley degree that I'll be happy to sign you up for. Its a J.D. which is really respected and you can do anything with. Plus, employers just care that you got your degree and it really doesn't matter where you went to school.

Do some math (I know, a frightening prospect for any 0L)

Yale's class size- 214
Penn's Class size- 255

% of Yale's class going directly into private practice- 40% (clerkship 31%, Government 12%)
% of Penn's class going directly into private practice- 77% (clerkship 17%)

Approx number of Yale grads looking to actually start a private practice job = 87
Approx number of Penn grads looking to actually start a private practice job = 196

I would guess that the number of Firms has a lot less to do with them not wanting to hire Yale grads and having more to do with the 87 Yale grads never looking at about 100 of those firms.

People who do clerkships also participate in OCI. You don't find out about clerkships until your 3L year, and many people who clerk have jobs lined up after their clerkship is over. Also, there is no way that there are 371 different firms interviewing Penn students. Maybe 371 different OFFICES, but not that many firms.

I think the main reason why there might be more firms at Penn's OCI is that Penn is in Philadelphia, whereas Yale is in New Haven. Philadelphia has a legal market, with a number of small and mid-size firms that are happy to compete for the 50% of Penn's class that didn't get Biglaw from its early interview week program. New Haven does not.

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nealric
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby nealric » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:15 pm

Or self selection. If I wanted to go into business I would go to Penn, especially if I could get into Wharton too.


Next to nobody choses Penn over Yale absent a full ride. I don't care what your business interests are. If you want to go into business: YLS -> WLRK -> PE.

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ahduth
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby ahduth » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:32 pm

savagecheater wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
savagecheater wrote:
gdane5 wrote:Rankings dont determine a schools prestige/worth. The schools prestige/worth determines the rankings.

HYS, NYU/Columbia, Georgetown, etc etc were top schools that attracted the best and brightest long before USNWR started ranking them. If the rankings disappeared tomorrow nothing would change.


If Vandy and G'town switched this year you better believe employers would take note.


Umm, no, not likely. I have yet to meet a lawyer who knew the current year's rankings. The only lawyers I imagine who would pay attention to this would be Vandy Alums to laugh at any GULC Alums they knew.


Not so much their exact rankings but that Vandy had moved up significantly and that GULC dropped.


My same friend who's on the hiring committee at the NY NLJ 50 was telling me Iowa is ranked highly enough to get an pretty decent look. I guess it used to be much more highly ranked? These guys really don't care about USNWR.

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nealric
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby nealric » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:40 pm

My same friend who's on the hiring committee at the NY NLJ 50 was telling me Iowa is ranked highly enough to get an pretty decent look. I guess it used to be much more highly ranked? These guys really don't care about USNWR.


How many Iowa grads does he employ?

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IAFG
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby IAFG » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:45 pm

lisjjen wrote:TLS kiddos are adorable. There is clearly one thing that matters. Ever.

Ever.

Ever.

And that's US News and World Reports. It doesn't matter how smart or experienced the folks at Princeton Review are, they have violated the USNWR Universe. They must be disregarded and then dismembered. Did you ever stop to think about the fact that there are a lot of things that go into law school rankings? USNWR uses 12 variables as a matter of fact. What you end up with are schools that are on balance better when weighed according to those criterion. In regards to career prospects, Penn has produced significantly more billionaires than Yale.

And it doesn't surprise me at all that Baylor is the most competitive. Look at its profile on TLS and you'll see the same thing - I've met people who went there. Healthy competition is one thing, but the kind of bullshit some 1L's pull would never fly at a T14. I'm talking about actively fucking with course outlines to throw the curve.
how likely you are to get the job you want in the sector and market you want.

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nealric
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby nealric » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:51 pm

IAFG wrote:
lisjjen wrote:TLS kiddos are adorable. There is clearly one thing that matters. Ever.

Ever.

Ever.

And that's US News and World Reports. It doesn't matter how smart or experienced the folks at Princeton Review are, they have violated the USNWR Universe. They must be disregarded and then dismembered. Did you ever stop to think about the fact that there are a lot of things that go into law school rankings? USNWR uses 12 variables as a matter of fact. What you end up with are schools that are on balance better when weighed according to those criterion. In regards to career prospects, Penn has produced significantly more billionaires than Yale.

And it doesn't surprise me at all that Baylor is the most competitive. Look at its profile on TLS and you'll see the same thing - I've met people who went there. Healthy competition is one thing, but the kind of bullshit some 1L's pull would never fly at a T14. I'm talking about actively fucking with course outlines to throw the curve.
how likely you are to get the job you want in the sector and market you want.


QFT

The anti US-News people are attacking straw men.

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ahduth
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby ahduth » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:51 pm

nealric wrote:
My same friend who's on the hiring committee at the NY NLJ 50 was telling me Iowa is ranked highly enough to get an pretty decent look. I guess it used to be much more highly ranked? These guys really don't care about USNWR.


How many Iowa grads does he employ?


I'm doubting she works with many lol. Point being - these firms have places they like to recruit from, they don't need USNWR to figure it out for them.

Edit: Apparently there are 2 partners and 7 associates from Iowa there.
Last edited by ahduth on Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sundance95
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby sundance95 » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:54 pm

lisjjen wrote:In regards to career prospects, Penn has produced significantly more billionaires than Yale.

Just wanted to point out that 'number of billionaires produced' is a terrible metric for career prospects.

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jawsthegreat
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby jawsthegreat » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:02 pm

UVA #1 Quality of Life. No question they nailed that one.

delusional
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby delusional » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:07 am

I just graduated to this forum from the LSAT prep one... Maybe that's why I notice that everyone's arguments are flawed because they presuppose their conclusions. If Princeton Review would rank schools by swimming pool size, would everyone's panties be in a knot if UVA had a larger swimming pool than Yale?

All they say is "best career prospects". Obviously, not everyone is looking for the most money relative to class size/difficulty of curve, etc. It's equally obvious that for someone looking to make a lot of money, there are advantages to being in a school with a huge OCI and with lots of peers on a similar track. Yale's prestige might give a graduate higher odds on any one job, but you can't be hired if you aren't interviewed. In short, the concept of anything other than HYS being best at anything should not be ruled out simply because it's someone other than HYS being the best at something.

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nealric
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby nealric » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:17 pm

All they say is "best career prospects". Obviously, not everyone is looking for the most money relative to class size/difficulty of curve, etc. It's equally obvious that for someone looking to make a lot of money, there are advantages to being in a school with a huge OCI and with lots of peers on a similar track. Yale's prestige might give a graduate higher odds on any one job, but you can't be hired if you aren't interviewed. In short, the concept of anything other than HYS being best at anything should not be ruled out simply because it's someone other than HYS being the best at something.


Your username is fitting.

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AreJay711
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby AreJay711 » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:44 pm

delusional wrote:I just graduated to this forum from the LSAT prep one... Maybe that's why I notice that everyone's arguments are flawed because they presuppose their conclusions. If Princeton Review would rank schools by swimming pool size, would everyone's panties be in a knot if UVA had a larger swimming pool than Yale?

All they say is "best career prospects". Obviously, not everyone is looking for the most money relative to class size/difficulty of curve, etc. It's equally obvious that for someone looking to make a lot of money, there are advantages to being in a school with a huge OCI and with lots of peers on a similar track. Yale's prestige might give a graduate higher odds on any one job, but you can't be hired if you aren't interviewed. In short, the concept of anything other than HYS being best at anything should not be ruled out simply because it's someone other than HYS being the best at something.


http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/cdo ... tstats.htm

http://www.law.upenn.edu/cpp/prospectiv ... stics.html

People aren't presupposing their conclusions because they aren't making arguments; they are making statements. Also your reasoning is flawed because you overlook the reality that Yale students can get any interview that a Penn student could get as well as those that aren't available to Penn students (or any students besides Harvard's). If Penn looks better it is because of self selection.

The Princeton Review rankings are even more meaningless than USNWR because they focus on individual criteria that by themselves are not important. At least USNWR tries to account for many different variables to present a balanced view of which schools are best. The only ones that I will buy are the quality of life and political leanings of the student body.

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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby ISTAND » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:45 pm

delusional wrote: Yale's prestige might give a graduate higher odds on any one job, but you can't be hired if you aren't interviewed.

That's what I'm thinking. Being book smart can't compete with having people skills, an amazing personality and nailing an interview. Just because someone goes to Yale does not mean that by default they are going to get hired over someone from ("an inferior") another school. It's not impossible for a T4 to snag a job over a Yale student in the real world. The school itself does not turn someone invincible. You are who you are. It can give a boost but it's not a sure thing for everyone to get hired over applicants from all the schools below them.

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gdane
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby gdane » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:53 pm

ISATND, you have a point. These Yale graduates might be dull and introverted people with no social skills. The aforementioned traits are no doubt very important in finding a job.

However, with Yale grads it doesnt matter. Yale grads can get most any job they want. Its just the way it is. The data supports this. Clerkships? Yep. Biglaw? Yep. Academia? Yep? Etc etc? Yep. Yale law graduates are set, even if some of them have no people skills.

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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby ISTAND » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:00 pm

Ok, I didn't know it was that engraved in stone.

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nealric
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby nealric » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:00 pm

These Yale graduates might be dull and introverted people with no social skills.


Maybe a given Yale grad is a terrible person with no social skills, but going to a lower-ranked school won't magically give him social skills and a personality. What we are talking about on these forums is what school is a good choice for a given INDIVIDUAL applicant.



It's not impossible for a T4 to snag a job over a Yale student in the real world.


It's not impossible to get killed by a meteorite in the real world. But should you make decisions based on that possibility?

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gdane
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby gdane » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:07 pm

nealric wrote:
These Yale graduates might be dull and introverted people with no social skills.


Maybe a given Yale grad is a terrible person with no social skills, but going to a lower-ranked school won't magically give him social skills and a personality. What we are talking about on these forums is what school is a good choice for a given INDIVIDUAL applicant.



You lost me buddy. You quoted me, but I never made any arguments about going to a lower ranked school.

Im confused. :?

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lisjjen
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby lisjjen » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:14 pm

I'm not anti-USNWR. In fact I understand the immense gravity and utility of the rankings, specifically the significance of the T14. However, in making a 3 year, $100,000 commitment that will quite literally influence the rest of your life, considering other sources may have personal utility.e.g. if money was the same at UCLA and Texas or Duke and Northwestern, which would you want to go to?

I'm not frustrated with the USNWR. They are a soft introduction to the world of prestiege mongering we are preparing ourselves to enter. I am frustrated with the tunnel vision on TLS.

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nealric
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby nealric » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:25 pm

You lost me buddy. You quoted me, but I never made any arguments about going to a lower ranked school.

Im confused.


Sorry, meant to quote the other guy.

I am frustrated with the tunnel vision on TLS.


But I just don't see many examples of the behavior you say you are frustrated with.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby Kilpatrick » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:29 pm

lisjjen wrote:I'm not anti-USNWR. In fact I understand the immense gravity and utility of the rankings, specifically the significance of the T14. However, in making a 3 year, $100,000 commitment that will quite literally influence the rest of your life, considering other sources may have personal utility.e.g. if money was the same at UCLA and Texas or Duke and Northwestern, which would you want to go to?

I'm not frustrated with the USNWR. They are a soft introduction to the world of prestiege mongering we are preparing ourselves to enter. I am frustrated with the tunnel vision on TLS.


What tunnel vision? That USNWR are the only rankings that matter? That's the truth. That's not tunnel vision, it's reality.

If you're talking about people picking Northwestern over UCLA based purely on their USNWR ranking, nobody on here would do that. That's one of those weird TLS myths that people talk about (like we tell people to retake 170+ LSATS) that is just not true.

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lisjjen
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby lisjjen » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:32 pm

Kilpatrick wrote:
lisjjen wrote:I'm not anti-USNWR. In fact I understand the immense gravity and utility of the rankings, specifically the significance of the T14. However, in making a 3 year, $100,000 commitment that will quite literally influence the rest of your life, considering other sources may have personal utility.e.g. if money was the same at UCLA and Texas or Duke and Northwestern, which would you want to go to?

I'm not frustrated with the USNWR. They are a soft introduction to the world of prestiege mongering we are preparing ourselves to enter. I am frustrated with the tunnel vision on TLS.


What tunnel vision? That USNWR are the only rankings that matter? That's the truth. That's not tunnel vision, it's reality.

If you're talking about people picking Northwestern over UCLA based purely on their USNWR ranking, nobody on here would do that. That's one of those weird TLS myths that people talk about (like we tell people to retake 170+ LSATS) that is just not true.


You are right. Nobody on here would do that. But about 65% of the people I see post would say to do that. To give you a personal example, everytime I mention going to UT Austin vs UMich, the first thing TLSers trot out is the ranking.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby Kilpatrick » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:36 pm

You must be mistaking a few morons for all of TLS. If you know you want to practice in Texas and/or got significantly more money from Texas then don't pick Michigan over Texas. Anybody who told you different is dumb.

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gdane
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby gdane » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:40 pm

Nah. TLS'ers are prestige whores. Cant argue that.

However, with the current state of the economy and what appears to be very risk aversive personalities, people are choosing lower ranked schools with money over higher ranked ones with less or no money.

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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby Nicholasnickynic » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:41 pm

ISTAND wrote:
delusional wrote: Yale's prestige might give a graduate higher odds on any one job, but you can't be hired if you aren't interviewed.

That's what I'm thinking. Being book smart can't compete with having people skills, an amazing personality and nailing an interview. Just because someone goes to Yale does not mean that by default they are going to get hired over someone from ("an inferior") another school. It's not impossible for a T4 to snag a job over a Yale student in the real world. The school itself does not turn someone invincible. You are who you are. It can give a boost but it's not a sure thing for everyone to get hired over applicants from all the schools below them.



Silly ISTAND, the ones with no social skills get to be professors!

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lisjjen
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Re: New Rankings: by Career Prospects; Experience; Quality;Profs

Postby lisjjen » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:45 pm

Kilpatrick wrote:Anybody who told you different is dumb.


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