Few Princeton Students in Law School?

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HamDel
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Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby HamDel » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:36 pm

I'm at a top school, and virtually every top undergrad is represented in my class. We especially have a lot from Harvard and Yale, but I've noticed that there are very few Princeton undergrads. Is this just an odd phenomenon at my school, or does Princeton just not send that many people to law school?

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OGR3
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby OGR3 » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:39 pm

They all go to Princeton Law.

dakatz
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby dakatz » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:41 pm

They go to med school instead

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UnitarySpace
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby UnitarySpace » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:44 pm

I know plenty of princeton people. and i think we might go to the same school.

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im_blue
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby im_blue » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:45 pm

Harvard has an average of 444 applicants per year, which is 27% of the senior class of 1660, compared to Yale's 416 applicants and 1310 seniors (32%), Princeton's 278 applicants and 1260 seniors (22%), and Stanford's 315 applicants and 1670 seniors (19%). So Princeton isn't significantly under-represented in law school relative to its peers. Also keep in mind that Princeton and Stanford have a much larger percentage of engineering majors than H/Y, which reduces the percentage of pre-laws.

http://www.lsac.org/LSACResources/Data/ ... chools.pdf

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NoleinNY
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby NoleinNY » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:47 pm

They've got better things to do than go to law school.

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Unemployed
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby Unemployed » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:51 am

Colleagues:

In 2004, Princeton University enacted new institutional grading expectations to address locally the national problem of grade inflation. This policy applies common standards to all academic departments and programs: A-range grades shall comprise no more than 35 percent of grades earned in undergraduate courses and no more than 55 percent of grades for junior and senior independent work. I hope this letter allows you to better evaluate our students’ credentials by placing the academic records of Princeton students in context.

Endorsed and fully implemented by our faculty, this new grading policy reflects the commitment of the Princeton community to hold students to the highest academic standards. A-range grades at Princeton (A+, A, A-) signify a caliber of academic work that deserves special recognition. By making careful distinctions in evaluating student work, the faculty has restored educational content and meaning to the letter grades earned at Princeton.

By contrast, our closest peer institutions report that grades continue to rise, with A’s often representing more than 50 percent of grades awarded. Unchecked grade inflation devalues student achievement and undermines the reliability of grade point averages as a standard comparative metric. At its worst, it may even discourage students from doing their best possible work.

The grading policy at Princeton is different. When evaluating the credentials of our students, I encourage you to consider their full course of study and other achievements. However, if your organization heavily weights GPA in its deliberations, please note that Princeton grades stand out against a national backdrop of grade inflation. For more detailed information about our grading policy, the booklet Grading At Princeton: Frequently Asked Questions can be found online at http://www.princeton.edu/odoc/faculty/grading/faq/.

If you have any questions, you can reach me at the above address or by e-mail at nweiss@princeton.edu. Thank you.

imchuckbass58
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby imchuckbass58 » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:52 am

HamDel wrote:I'm at a top school, and virtually every top undergrad is represented in my class. We especially have a lot from Harvard and Yale, but I've noticed that there are very few Princeton undergrads. Is this just an odd phenomenon at my school, or does Princeton just not send that many people to law school?


Pretty sure we go to the same school and I can name 8 off the top of my head.

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im_blue
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby im_blue » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:53 am

Unemployed wrote:
Colleagues:

In 2004, Princeton University enacted new institutional grading expectations to address locally the national problem of grade inflation. This policy applies common standards to all academic departments and programs: A-range grades shall comprise no more than 35 percent of grades earned in undergraduate courses and no more than 55 percent of grades for junior and senior independent work. I hope this letter allows you to better evaluate our students’ credentials by placing the academic records of Princeton students in context.

Endorsed and fully implemented by our faculty, this new grading policy reflects the commitment of the Princeton community to hold students to the highest academic standards. A-range grades at Princeton (A+, A, A-) signify a caliber of academic work that deserves special recognition. By making careful distinctions in evaluating student work, the faculty has restored educational content and meaning to the letter grades earned at Princeton.

By contrast, our closest peer institutions report that grades continue to rise, with A’s often representing more than 50 percent of grades awarded. Unchecked grade inflation devalues student achievement and undermines the reliability of grade point averages as a standard comparative metric. At its worst, it may even discourage students from doing their best possible work.

The grading policy at Princeton is different. When evaluating the credentials of our students, I encourage you to consider their full course of study and other achievements. However, if your organization heavily weights GPA in its deliberations, please note that Princeton grades stand out against a national backdrop of grade inflation. For more detailed information about our grading policy, the booklet Grading At Princeton: Frequently Asked Questions can be found online at http://www.princeton.edu/odoc/faculty/grading/faq/.

If you have any questions, you can reach me at the above address or by e-mail at nweiss@princeton.edu. Thank you.

It's nice that they're trying to take a stand against grade inflation, but they're swimming against the tide here. Grade grubbing students will just pick HYS and coast to grad school.

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Unemployed
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby Unemployed » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:54 am

imchuckbass58 wrote:
HamDel wrote:I'm at a top school, and virtually every top undergrad is represented in my class. We especially have a lot from Harvard and Yale, but I've noticed that there are very few Princeton undergrads. Is this just an odd phenomenon at my school, or does Princeton just not send that many people to law school?


Pretty sure we go to the same school and I can name 8 off the top of my head.


However, there are like 20-30 from Yale and Harvard each. And nearly 40 from Cornell. :shock:

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Unemployed
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby Unemployed » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:57 am

im_blue wrote:
Unemployed wrote:
Colleagues:

In 2004, Princeton University enacted new institutional grading expectations to address locally the national problem of grade inflation. This policy applies common standards to all academic departments and programs: A-range grades shall comprise no more than 35 percent of grades earned in undergraduate courses and no more than 55 percent of grades for junior and senior independent work. I hope this letter allows you to better evaluate our students’ credentials by placing the academic records of Princeton students in context.

Endorsed and fully implemented by our faculty, this new grading policy reflects the commitment of the Princeton community to hold students to the highest academic standards. A-range grades at Princeton (A+, A, A-) signify a caliber of academic work that deserves special recognition. By making careful distinctions in evaluating student work, the faculty has restored educational content and meaning to the letter grades earned at Princeton.

By contrast, our closest peer institutions report that grades continue to rise, with A’s often representing more than 50 percent of grades awarded. Unchecked grade inflation devalues student achievement and undermines the reliability of grade point averages as a standard comparative metric. At its worst, it may even discourage students from doing their best possible work.

The grading policy at Princeton is different. When evaluating the credentials of our students, I encourage you to consider their full course of study and other achievements. However, if your organization heavily weights GPA in its deliberations, please note that Princeton grades stand out against a national backdrop of grade inflation. For more detailed information about our grading policy, the booklet Grading At Princeton: Frequently Asked Questions can be found online at http://www.princeton.edu/odoc/faculty/grading/faq/.

If you have any questions, you can reach me at the above address or by e-mail at nweiss@princeton.edu. Thank you.

It's nice that they're trying to take a stand against grade inflation, but they're swimming against the tide here. Grade grubbing students will just pick HYS and coast to grad school.


Harvard became the poster child for Ivy League grade inflation after that Boston Globe article, but Yale is worse, and Stanford is MUCH worse.

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im_blue
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby im_blue » Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:00 am

Unemployed wrote:
im_blue wrote:
Unemployed wrote:
Colleagues:

In 2004, Princeton University enacted new institutional grading expectations to address locally the national problem of grade inflation. This policy applies common standards to all academic departments and programs: A-range grades shall comprise no more than 35 percent of grades earned in undergraduate courses and no more than 55 percent of grades for junior and senior independent work. I hope this letter allows you to better evaluate our students’ credentials by placing the academic records of Princeton students in context.

Endorsed and fully implemented by our faculty, this new grading policy reflects the commitment of the Princeton community to hold students to the highest academic standards. A-range grades at Princeton (A+, A, A-) signify a caliber of academic work that deserves special recognition. By making careful distinctions in evaluating student work, the faculty has restored educational content and meaning to the letter grades earned at Princeton.

By contrast, our closest peer institutions report that grades continue to rise, with A’s often representing more than 50 percent of grades awarded. Unchecked grade inflation devalues student achievement and undermines the reliability of grade point averages as a standard comparative metric. At its worst, it may even discourage students from doing their best possible work.

The grading policy at Princeton is different. When evaluating the credentials of our students, I encourage you to consider their full course of study and other achievements. However, if your organization heavily weights GPA in its deliberations, please note that Princeton grades stand out against a national backdrop of grade inflation. For more detailed information about our grading policy, the booklet Grading At Princeton: Frequently Asked Questions can be found online at http://www.princeton.edu/odoc/faculty/grading/faq/.

If you have any questions, you can reach me at the above address or by e-mail at nweiss@princeton.edu. Thank you.

It's nice that they're trying to take a stand against grade inflation, but they're swimming against the tide here. Grade grubbing students will just pick HYS and coast to grad school.


Harvard became the poster child for Ivy League grade inflation after that Boston Globe article, but Yale is worse, and Stanford is MUCH worse.

Stanford doesn't have 40% or so of their students graduating with honors. You actually have to write an honors thesis.

EDIT:
Average GPAs from gradeinflation.org:
Brown 3.61
Stanford 3.55
Yale 3.51
Harvard 3.45
Penn 3.44
Columbia 3.42
Dartmouth 3.42
Cornell 3.36
Princeton 3.28 (ouch!)

Dbate
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby Dbate » Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:26 am

I don't understand why any administration would take a stance against grade inflation. I'm at Yale with a 3.56 (which is lower than the average due to pre-med classes) and I bet our average GPA is like a 3.65 or something. In fact, according to the report published by our career services office, the average GPA of Yale applicants to law school (that were graduating seniors) was 3.7. That's why we get into top grad schools.

The culture here is that it is bad to give low grades. In fact, in even the hard sciences, the university's policy is that the average HAS to be a B+. Apparently, an organic chem professor tried to make it lower than that and the registrar rejected his grades and made him make them higher.

Grade inflation is better for everyone. 1) Better for us for obvious reasons. 2) Better for the school because then we go to Top law schools, become wealthy attorneys, and donate money or go into high profile political positions and bring prestige to the school. 3) Better for the school because people are not as stressed about grades, so they have a happy undergrad experience, which makes them want to give back to the school. 4) Better for the school and students because students do not have to worry about their grades as much and can therefore focus on extracurricular organizations (which are abundant).

Overall, Princeton is just hurting Princeton. Yale's laissez faire attitude is not going to change and it is simply hurting Princeton students and actively dissuades people from going to Princeton.

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ahduth
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby ahduth » Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:56 am

Dbate wrote:Grade inflation is better for everyone. 1) Better for us for obvious reasons. 2) Better for the school because then we go to Top law schools, become wealthy attorneys, and donate money or go into high profile political positions and bring prestige to the school. 3) Better for the school because people are not as stressed about grades, so they have a happy undergrad experience, which makes them want to give back to the school. 4) Better for the school and students because students do not have to worry about their grades as much and can therefore focus on extracurricular organizations (which are abundant).


Welcome to the stupidification of America. (I just inventioneered a new word!)

"Do not have to worry about their grades as much and can therefore focus on extracurricular organizations?"

I'm going to enjoy mauling some of you in law school.

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St.Remy
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby St.Remy » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:49 am

ahduth wrote: "Do not have to worry about their grades as much and can therefore focus on extracurricular organizations?"

I'm going to enjoy mauling some of you in law school.


The point is that if you go to P and he goes to Y you probably won't get the chance to maul him, because his GPA will be .3 higher than yours on average. Getting "mauled" at HYS law doesn't sound half bad.

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BrownBears09
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby BrownBears09 » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:04 am

im_blue wrote:EDIT:
Average GPAs from gradeinflation.org:
Brown 3.61
Stanford 3.55
Yale 3.51
Harvard 3.45
Penn 3.44
Columbia 3.42
Dartmouth 3.42
Cornell 3.36
Princeton 3.28 (ouch!)


Out of context statistics are out of context.

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JG Hall
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby JG Hall » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:10 am

Unemployed wrote:
imchuckbass58 wrote:
HamDel wrote:I'm at a top school, and virtually every top undergrad is represented in my class. We especially have a lot from Harvard and Yale, but I've noticed that there are very few Princeton undergrads. Is this just an odd phenomenon at my school, or does Princeton just not send that many people to law school?


Pretty sure we go to the same school and I can name 8 off the top of my head.


However, there are like 20-30 from Yale and Harvard each. And nearly 40 from Cornell. :shock:

It seems like all the Princeton people I know are at least two years out of UG, too.

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ahduth
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby ahduth » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:09 am

St.Remy wrote:
ahduth wrote: "Do not have to worry about their grades as much and can therefore focus on extracurricular organizations?"

I'm going to enjoy mauling some of you in law school.


The point is that if you go to P and he goes to Y you probably won't get the chance to maul him, because his GPA will be .3 higher than yours on average. Getting "mauled" at HYS law doesn't sound half bad.


You're probably right about H. I'm a little skeptical that Y and S don't look at Princeton's grades in a separate category however. It's not as though Princeton's anti-grade inflation stance is unknown. This also makes As from Princeton more exceptional. So anyone showing up with a high GPA from Princeton will get a closer look no matter what.

Think about it in the context of the Stanford/Northwestern letter of recommendation forms, or the new evaluations (which I'm assuming will quickly become required). Schools are looking for that top 1-5% of "exceptional" students. Princeton's grading system is tiering people out in a similar manner from the get go.

The fact of the matter is that admitting a one or two Princeton students who come in with under median 3.5 GPAs isn't going to destroy a schools standing. Particularly since those students will already be quite familiar with life in a curved environment, and should therefore be well prepared for law school.

My "mauled" comment was really more aimed at the poster's attitude that undergrad is some sort of vacation, where people need to not be stressed about their grades so they can be "happy."

Dbate
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby Dbate » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:53 pm

ahduth wrote:
Dbate wrote:Grade inflation is better for everyone. 1) Better for us for obvious reasons. 2) Better for the school because then we go to Top law schools, become wealthy attorneys, and donate money or go into high profile political positions and bring prestige to the school. 3) Better for the school because people are not as stressed about grades, so they have a happy undergrad experience, which makes them want to give back to the school. 4) Better for the school and students because students do not have to worry about their grades as much and can therefore focus on extracurricular organizations (which are abundant).


Welcome to the stupidification of America. (I just inventioneered a new word!)

"Do not have to worry about their grades as much and can therefore focus on extracurricular organizations?"

I'm going to enjoy mauling some of you in law school.


There's no way you would ever get a chance to maul me. Because with my GPA, I won't have to go to a third tier toilet.

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ahduth
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby ahduth » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:02 pm

Dbate wrote:
ahduth wrote:
Dbate wrote:Grade inflation is better for everyone. 1) Better for us for obvious reasons. 2) Better for the school because then we go to Top law schools, become wealthy attorneys, and donate money or go into high profile political positions and bring prestige to the school. 3) Better for the school because people are not as stressed about grades, so they have a happy undergrad experience, which makes them want to give back to the school. 4) Better for the school and students because students do not have to worry about their grades as much and can therefore focus on extracurricular organizations (which are abundant).


Welcome to the stupidification of America. (I just inventioneered a new word!)

"Do not have to worry about their grades as much and can therefore focus on extracurricular organizations?"

I'm going to enjoy mauling some of you in law school.


There's no way you would ever get a chance to maul me. Because with my GPA, I won't have to go to a third tier toilet.


I'm pretty excited about my destination thank you very much. I haven't actually been accepted to any of the third tier toilets, but I am ready. I do like how you think your GPA is guaranteeing you a spot in a second tier toilet though.

ATR
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby ATR » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:21 pm

BrownBears09 wrote:
im_blue wrote:EDIT:
Average GPAs from gradeinflation.org:
Brown 3.61
Stanford 3.55
Yale 3.51
Harvard 3.45
Penn 3.44
Columbia 3.42
Dartmouth 3.42
Cornell 3.36
Princeton 3.28 (ouch!)


Out of context statistics are out of context.

Put them in context for us.

whymeohgodno
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby whymeohgodno » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:32 pm

atresia wrote:
BrownBears09 wrote:
im_blue wrote:EDIT:
Average GPAs from gradeinflation.org:
Brown 3.61
Stanford 3.55
Yale 3.51
Harvard 3.45
Penn 3.44
Columbia 3.42
Dartmouth 3.42
Cornell 3.36
Princeton 3.28 (ouch!)


Out of context statistics are out of context.

Put them in context for us.


+1.

I'd like to know what context I need to view this in so that an average GPA of 3.61 doesn't seem like rampant grade inflation.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:46 pm

ahduth wrote:
Dbate wrote:Grade inflation is better for everyone. 1) Better for us for obvious reasons. 2) Better for the school because then we go to Top law schools, become wealthy attorneys, and donate money or go into high profile political positions and bring prestige to the school. 3) Better for the school because people are not as stressed about grades, so they have a happy undergrad experience, which makes them want to give back to the school. 4) Better for the school and students because students do not have to worry about their grades as much and can therefore focus on extracurricular organizations (which are abundant).


Welcome to the stupidification of America. (I just inventioneered a new word!)

"Do not have to worry about their grades as much and can therefore focus on extracurricular organizations?"

I'm going to enjoy mauling some of you in law school.


People are always talking about what's the definition of a gunner--well here it is folks. I wonder about the social skills of people who say things like this.

Jeffro
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby Jeffro » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:15 am

BruceWayne wrote:
ahduth wrote:
Dbate wrote:Grade inflation is better for everyone. 1) Better for us for obvious reasons. 2) Better for the school because then we go to Top law schools, become wealthy attorneys, and donate money or go into high profile political positions and bring prestige to the school. 3) Better for the school because people are not as stressed about grades, so they have a happy undergrad experience, which makes them want to give back to the school. 4) Better for the school and students because students do not have to worry about their grades as much and can therefore focus on extracurricular organizations (which are abundant).


Welcome to the stupidification of America. (I just inventioneered a new word!)

"Do not have to worry about their grades as much and can therefore focus on extracurricular organizations?"

I'm going to enjoy mauling some of you in law school.


People are always talking about what's the definition of a gunner--well here it is folks. I wonder about the social skills of people who say things like this.
In ahduth's defense, he only said some of you and I think I know the type of person he means.

It's pretty ridiculous to see someone try to justify that everyone should be given A's so that they can enjoy extracurriculars, have any easy educational experience, and then give the school tons of money later on down the road. Grades should be earned, not handed to you just because you went to a top school. Shit like that is dumbing down America across the board. I wonder about the social skills of people who don't get annoyed at the idea of someone suggesting that just handing out high GPAs is actually sustainable and would benefit America down the road. Watch Idiocracy and enjoy your shiny, framed Ivy diploma.
Last edited by Jeffro on Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ahduth
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Re: Few Princeton Students in Law School?

Postby ahduth » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:11 am

Jeffro wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
ahduth wrote:I'm going to enjoy mauling some of you in law school.


People are always talking about what's the definition of a gunner--well here it is folks. I wonder about the social skills of people who say things like this.
In ahduth's defense, he did only said some of you and I think I know the type of person he means.

It's pretty ridiculous to see someone try to justify that everyone should be given A's so that they can enjoy extracurriculars, have any easy educational experience, and then give the school tons of money later on down the road. Grades should be earned, not handed to you just because you went to a top school. Shit like that is dumbing down America across the board. I wonder about the social skills of people who don't get annoyed at the idea of someone suggesting that just handing out high GPAs is actually sustainable and would benefit America down the road. Watch Idiocracy and enjoy your shiny, framed Ivy diploma.


Nice, thanks Jeffro, that is exactly what I meant. I'm sure (well, I'm hoping) the vast majority of the people I end up at school with are intellectually, socially and culturally engaged. And I won't be looking to maul them. Just this guy - he sounds like he wants to phone it in and then go make a ton of money. Fuck that. It's pretty hard to phone it in on a curve.

The whole idea that grade inflation is good because it makes undergraduate easier seems idiotic. Maybe it's just me - I have this quaint notion that college should be more than simply a finishing school for those who are wealthy enough to pay for it. I know Batman thinks I'm a douchebag for hoping that people might want to work hard in school, but whatever. I'm pretty sure gunners are something different than what I am, although I guess time will tell. I'm some variety of intellectual elitist no doubt, one that's rather likely to rail on about the evils of grade inflation, apparently.




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