How selective is Penn?

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al2546
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How selective is Penn?

Postby al2546 » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:37 am

Penn's 25th-75th LSAT are 166-171, putting their median relatively low for their ranking...i was wondering if perhaps theyre bigger into soft factors and if high LSAT/GPA is not as helpful there..compared to, say, NYU...thoughts?

justadude55
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Re: How selective is Penn?

Postby justadude55 » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:43 am

al2546 wrote:Penn's 25th-75th LSAT are 166-171, putting their median relatively low for their ranking...i was wondering if perhaps theyre bigger into soft factors and if high LSAT/GPA is not as helpful there..compared to, say, NYU...thoughts?

their median is closer to the 75th at 170. their median gpa is a 3.8.

these medians more than justify the ranking.

throw in that >33% are minorities, and you can argue they're comfortably set in where they are.

percentiles can be misleading. they are pretty valueless. the medians are what the rankings are based off of, and what they accept based off of.

bigkahuna2020
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Re: How selective is Penn?

Postby bigkahuna2020 » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:45 am

al2546 wrote:Penn's 25th-75th LSAT are 166-171, putting their median relatively low for their ranking...i was wondering if perhaps theyre bigger into soft factors and if high LSAT/GPA is not as helpful there..compared to, say, NYU...thoughts?


Rankings are not a 1 to 1 correction with selectivity. Looking at hourumd seems to indicate that while below the 25% is impossible, above the median is not guaranteed (well at least around my GPA)

It seems they are not whores for a crazy high LSAT score and seem to use soft factors above around 170/171 with lower midrange GPA (~3.5) at least

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txadv11
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Re: How selective is Penn?

Postby txadv11 » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:48 am

USNWR= Median LSAT Scores (.125) Median Undergrad GPA (.10)


source: http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... ology.html

TLSNYC
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Re: How selective is Penn?

Postby TLSNYC » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:51 am

Penn has a relatively small class size, so even though its numerical standards for acceptance may be lower than say NYU, it has to admit fewer applicants to maintain its limited class size.
Also, Penn is very protective of its ranking is known for yield protecting, i.e. rejecting applicants with extremely strong numbers since they are likely not to attend if accepted and thus will hurt Penn's US News ranking. This is why showing a commitment to Penn in your application might be helpful.

r6_philly
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Re: How selective is Penn?

Postby r6_philly » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:57 am

bigkahuna2020 wrote:
al2546 wrote:Penn's 25th-75th LSAT are 166-171, putting their median relatively low for their ranking...i was wondering if perhaps theyre bigger into soft factors and if high LSAT/GPA is not as helpful there..compared to, say, NYU...thoughts?


Rankings are not a 1 to 1 correction with selectivity. Looking at hourumd seems to indicate that while below the 25% is impossible, above the median is not guaranteed (well at least around my GPA)

It seems they are not whores for a crazy high LSAT score and seem to use soft factors above around 170/171 with lower midrange GPA (~3.5) at least


Did you guys not take stats? Hourumd or LSN or LSP are based on data that may not represent the whole set because it is self-selected not randomly selected.

OP mistakes median and percentiles with means and averages.

Penn having a 170 median and 171 75% has nothing to do with them being "not whores" for crazy high LSATS. It has more to do with high LSATs going to CCN so there are not many 172+ left in the pool that would enroll at Penn. They may admit every single 172 that is not a splitter with low GPA and end up with a 170/171. We do not know how many 172+ non-splitters are there, but there can't be enough to fill 50 seats at Penn.

1% of 60000 = 600, and how many of them are splitters?
25% of HYSCCN adds up to how many spots?

bigkahuna2020
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Re: How selective is Penn?

Postby bigkahuna2020 » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:59 am

r6_philly wrote:
bigkahuna2020 wrote:
al2546 wrote:Penn's 25th-75th LSAT are 166-171, putting their median relatively low for their ranking...i was wondering if perhaps theyre bigger into soft factors and if high LSAT/GPA is not as helpful there..compared to, say, NYU...thoughts?


Rankings are not a 1 to 1 correction with selectivity. Looking at hourumd seems to indicate that while below the 25% is impossible, above the median is not guaranteed (well at least around my GPA)

It seems they are not whores for a crazy high LSAT score and seem to use soft factors above around 170/171 with lower midrange GPA (~3.5) at least


Did you guys not take stats? Hourumd or LSN or LSP are based on data that may not represent the whole set because it is self-selected not randomly selected.


Well true, and I forgot about YP being a factor I guess, so I retract my statement.

justadude55
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Re: How selective is Penn?

Postby justadude55 » Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:00 pm

txadv11 wrote:USNWR= Median LSAT Scores (.125) Median Undergrad GPA (.10)


source: http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... ology.html

can you explain what this means to all the people who don't know stats, have not taken math in a decade and only did well on the LSAT because it only tests fluid intelligence, and lack basic skills requiring prior education?

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im_blue
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Re: How selective is Penn?

Postby im_blue » Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:07 pm

al2546 wrote:Penn's 25th-75th LSAT are 166-171, putting their median relatively low for their ranking

No, Penn is tied with UVA for the highest medians (3.85 / 170) after HYSCCN.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=128236

With a 3.8 / 172 Ivy, you should be able to get into CCN and have a small shot at Stanford (no shot at HY though), so you shouldn't really worry about Penn too much.

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hellojd
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Re: How selective is Penn?

Postby hellojd » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:20 pm

im_blue wrote:
al2546 wrote:Penn's 25th-75th LSAT are 166-171, putting their median relatively low for their ranking

No, Penn is tied with UVA for the highest medians (3.85 / 170) after HYSCCN.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=128236

With a 3.8 / 172 Ivy, you should be able to get into CCN and have a small shot at Stanford (no shot at HY though), so you shouldn't really worry about Penn too much.


I had no idea their medians were that high...their 75% is 171/3.90. Very small jump from median to their 75%. I'm not a stat guy, but this seems strange that its SO skewed toward the 75% and away from the 25%.

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im_blue
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Re: How selective is Penn?

Postby im_blue » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:27 pm

hellojd wrote:
im_blue wrote:
al2546 wrote:Penn's 25th-75th LSAT are 166-171, putting their median relatively low for their ranking

No, Penn is tied with UVA for the highest medians (3.85 / 170) after HYSCCN.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=128236

With a 3.8 / 172 Ivy, you should be able to get into CCN and have a small shot at Stanford (no shot at HY though), so you shouldn't really worry about Penn too much.


I had no idea their medians were that high...their 75% is 171/3.90. Very small jump from median to their 75%. I'm not a stat guy, but this seems strange that its SO skewed toward the 75% and away from the 25%.

Not strange at all, any law school that is gaming the rankings effectively (i.e. maximizing their medians) will take lots of splitters and reverse splitters in pairs, which causes the 25% to be much lower than median. As an extreme example, Minnesota's LSAT quartiles are 159 - 167 - 168!

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hellojd
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Re: How selective is Penn?

Postby hellojd » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:10 pm

im_blue wrote:
hellojd wrote:
im_blue wrote:
al2546 wrote:Penn's 25th-75th LSAT are 166-171, putting their median relatively low for their ranking

No, Penn is tied with UVA for the highest medians (3.85 / 170) after HYSCCN.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=128236

With a 3.8 / 172 Ivy, you should be able to get into CCN and have a small shot at Stanford (no shot at HY though), so you shouldn't really worry about Penn too much.


I had no idea their medians were that high...their 75% is 171/3.90. Very small jump from median to their 75%. I'm not a stat guy, but this seems strange that its SO skewed toward the 75% and away from the 25%.

Not strange at all, any law school that is gaming the rankings effectively (i.e. maximizing their medians) will take lots of splitters and reverse splitters in pairs, which causes the 25% to be much lower than median. As an extreme example, Minnesota's LSAT quartiles are 159 - 167 - 168!


So where does that put people hovering around medians?

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txadv11
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Re: How selective is Penn?

Postby txadv11 » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:39 pm

justadude55 wrote:
txadv11 wrote:USNWR= Median LSAT Scores (.125) Median Undergrad GPA (.10)


source: http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... ology.html

can you explain what this means to all the people who don't know stats, have not taken math in a decade and only did well on the LSAT because it only tests fluid intelligence, and lack basic skills requiring prior education?


Check the link...but basically median GPA/LSAT only account for 22.5...lets just say 23% of rankings by USNWR.


Assessment Score by Lawyers/Judges and other schools accounts for 40%

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im_blue
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Re: How selective is Penn?

Postby im_blue » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:43 pm

hellojd wrote:
im_blue wrote:Not strange at all, any law school that is gaming the rankings effectively (i.e. maximizing their medians) will take lots of splitters and reverse splitters in pairs, which causes the 25% to be much lower than median. As an extreme example, Minnesota's LSAT quartiles are 159 - 167 - 168!

So where does that put people hovering around medians?

Your chances are much higher if you hit both medians compared to just one median, and numbers below both medians are auto-reject.

whymeohgodno
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Re: How selective is Penn?

Postby whymeohgodno » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:55 pm

justadude55 wrote:
al2546 wrote:Penn's 25th-75th LSAT are 166-171, putting their median relatively low for their ranking...i was wondering if perhaps theyre bigger into soft factors and if high LSAT/GPA is not as helpful there..compared to, say, NYU...thoughts?

their median is closer to the 75th at 170. their median gpa is a 3.8.

these medians more than justify the ranking.

throw in that >33% are minorities, and you can argue they're comfortably set in where they are.

percentiles can be misleading. they are pretty valueless. the medians are what the rankings are based off of, and what they accept based off of.


This is useless because only URMs get boost. I'm willing to bet more than 10% of those minorities are ORMs.

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ahduth
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Re: How selective is Penn?

Postby ahduth » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:09 pm

I'm going to apply to Penn! My essays are almost done. I swear.

Supplemental essay #2 FTW, correct?

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im_blue
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Re: How selective is Penn?

Postby im_blue » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:11 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:
justadude55 wrote:
al2546 wrote:Penn's 25th-75th LSAT are 166-171, putting their median relatively low for their ranking...i was wondering if perhaps theyre bigger into soft factors and if high LSAT/GPA is not as helpful there..compared to, say, NYU...thoughts?

their median is closer to the 75th at 170. their median gpa is a 3.8.

these medians more than justify the ranking.

throw in that >33% are minorities, and you can argue they're comfortably set in where they are.

percentiles can be misleading. they are pretty valueless. the medians are what the rankings are based off of, and what they accept based off of.


This is useless because only URMs get boost. I'm willing to bet more than 10% of those minorities are ORMs.

+1. Penn is 28% minority, but half of them are Asian Americans, leaving 14% URMs. Also another 5% is non-MX/PR Hispanic, which means about 9% receive a URM boost.

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ahduth
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Re: How selective is Penn?

Postby ahduth » Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:19 pm

im_blue, I have a serious question for you.

Why aren't you going into trading? You seem like the type of person who would make enormous amounts of money shoveling through bond data.

r6_philly
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Re: How selective is Penn?

Postby r6_philly » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:38 pm

ahduth wrote:im_blue, I have a serious question for you.

Why aren't you going into trading? You seem like the type of person who would make enormous amounts of money shoveling through bond data.


You don't get to decide the formula/models unless you work your own firm, but then you will have no money to trade. I'd be an awesome trader, but then I would get so bored with myself I would have to blow all the money I make on stuff that will kill me.

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ahduth
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Re: How selective is Penn?

Postby ahduth » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:58 pm

r6_philly wrote:
ahduth wrote:im_blue, I have a serious question for you.

Why aren't you going into trading? You seem like the type of person who would make enormous amounts of money shoveling through bond data.


You don't get to decide the formula/models unless you work your own firm, but then you will have no money to trade. I'd be an awesome trader, but then I would get so bored with myself I would have to blow all the money I make on stuff that will kill me.


People who kick ass are trading their own money very quickly around here it seems like. The speed and ease with which people are able to get their own shops running never ceases to amaze me. It may just be that investors handling portfolio money in Chicago are used to dealing with these options jockeys, and so they don't mind the vaguely fly-by-night nature of some of the outfits, but I don't know much about it. I'd have to imagine it's that much faster in New York/Greenwich, but with all the big banks HQ'd out there, maybe not.

r6_philly
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Re: How selective is Penn?

Postby r6_philly » Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:14 pm

ahduth wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
ahduth wrote:im_blue, I have a serious question for you.

Why aren't you going into trading? You seem like the type of person who would make enormous amounts of money shoveling through bond data.


You don't get to decide the formula/models unless you work your own firm, but then you will have no money to trade. I'd be an awesome trader, but then I would get so bored with myself I would have to blow all the money I make on stuff that will kill me.


People who kick ass are trading their own money very quickly around here it seems like. The speed and ease with which people are able to get their own shops running never ceases to amaze me. It may just be that investors handling portfolio money in Chicago are used to dealing with these options jockeys, and so they don't mind the vaguely fly-by-night nature of some of the outfits, but I don't know much about it. I'd have to imagine it's that much faster in New York/Greenwich, but with all the big banks HQ'd out there, maybe not.


It's hard to get anything started in established markets, especially now everyone is tight and careful (well for a little while anyway). Five years ago everyone and their mom was trading.

At the end of the day I am not sure I am comfortable playing with other people's portfolios.




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