Is Asian Amerian an URM?

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Is Asian Amerian an URM?

Postby DoubleChecks » Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:39 pm

r6_philly wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:there is some suggestion that being asian hurts a bit at the ivy league law schools...but i havent seen any hard evidence pointing to this.


Why is that (the reason that you heard)?


not 100% sure; id imagine it is because some of these schools have a relatively lower % of asian americans compared to other similarly ranked schools...maybe even when taking into account # of asian applicants -- i dont know, a lot cannot be assumed from such numbers

another reason why i am a bit hesitant to presume that being asian hurts in law school admissions is because for a lot of law firms, asians are seen as a URM of sorts...or at least count for most diversity/minority scholarships (usually not true, at least from my own personal experience, w/ ugrad or law school)

while i can believe asians are still >4-5% in representation at law firms, i can ALSO believe it isnt anywhere close to the grossly disproportionate 15-20% in representation that some undergrads have

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Na_Swatch
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Re: Is Asian Amerian an URM?

Postby Na_Swatch » Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:42 pm

From as near as I can figure, it seems like there is basically no difference to being Asian for Law school admissions. If there is, it might be a very small negative effect at top schools, but I'm unsure if even that exists. Reposting what I basically researched last cycle:

I did a little research into this when I was applying as I was curious about this question too. The fact that Asians are ORM for UG admissions is definitely true (there was that research study awhile back that found Asian applicants experienced the equivalent of -160 points on their SAT (out of 1600) when applying to college), but this definitely does not seem to carry over to Law School admissions. Anyways here was my best estimate from just examining several sources and making a guess based on what I know:

Asians applying to law school experience are basically equivalent to White applicants, although perhaps there is a slightly negative effect at the highest tier schools (HYS).

Again, this is highly speculative as there are tons of confounding factors, but the basic idea is that ABA data shows a trend of the top 3 law schools perhaps being a little more selective for Asian applicants.

The Data (ABA latest statistics for law school population):

Harvard: 10.1% Asian, 11.3% African-American
Yale: 11.6% Asian, 7.5% AA
Stanford: 12.6% Asian, 10.8% AA

Columbia University: 15.1% Asian, 8.1% AA
Chicago: 11.5% Asian, 6.3% AA
NYU: 10.5% Asian, 6.5% AA

So, for example, Harvard UG has much more Asian students then HLS (around double the percentage). The African-American numbers are just for comparison as they show that, overall, the top 3 law school have a greater share (percentage-wise) of minority applicants. Thus, for example, it seems like Harvard is the only school where there are more African-American's then Asian's attending. This is despite the fact that Harvard UG is approx. 9% AA and approx. 18% Asian, roughly speaking.

Now for the stuff that could be affecting this numbers enough to mean that there is no negative association with Asian applicants at all:

-Asians are more likely to go towards science/ medical track fields than law school. This has been shown in quite a lot of research and definitely contributes to fewer Asian law school applicants. The caveat is that there should still be quite a lot of top Asian law school applicants considering the percentage of Asians in top UG's.

-Location, school preference, etc. : For example, Stanford has more Asian applicants because of its location. Columbia blows NYU out of the water, 15% to 10%, perhaps because of greater emphasize on the Columbia Ivy League name over NYU. However, this raises the fact that Harvard might experience the same effect of increased applicants. (Also might be true for other minorities, remember seeing something about AA applicants preferring H out of HYS too).

-The numbers are spread out that way due to school preferences. For example, Chicago is known for not being very URM friendly, which is probably affecting its numbers.

Anyways take of it what you will, the actual data I can find isn't very conclusive or glaring... in the end I think there is little to no effect so you probably don't have to worry too much about it. I don't think I saw an effect in my admissions cycle either.

whymeohgodno
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Re: Is Asian Amerian an URM?

Postby whymeohgodno » Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:58 pm

Na_Swatch wrote:From as near as I can figure, it seems like there is basically no difference to being Asian for Law school admissions. If there is, it might be a very small negative effect at top schools, but I'm unsure if even that exists. Reposting what I basically researched last cycle:

I did a little research into this when I was applying as I was curious about this question too. The fact that Asians are ORM for UG admissions is definitely true (there was that research study awhile back that found Asian applicants experienced the equivalent of -160 points on their SAT (out of 1600) when applying to college), but this definitely does not seem to carry over to Law School admissions. Anyways here was my best estimate from just examining several sources and making a guess based on what I know:

Asians applying to law school experience are basically equivalent to White applicants, although perhaps there is a slightly negative effect at the highest tier schools (HYS).

Again, this is highly speculative as there are tons of confounding factors, but the basic idea is that ABA data shows a trend of the top 3 law schools perhaps being a little more selective for Asian applicants.

The Data (ABA latest statistics for law school population):

Harvard: 10.1% Asian, 11.3% African-American
Yale: 11.6% Asian, 7.5% AA
Stanford: 12.6% Asian, 10.8% AA

Columbia University: 15.1% Asian, 8.1% AA
Chicago: 11.5% Asian, 6.3% AA
NYU: 10.5% Asian, 6.5% AA

So, for example, Harvard UG has much more Asian students then HLS (around double the percentage). The African-American numbers are just for comparison as they show that, overall, the top 3 law school have a greater share (percentage-wise) of minority applicants. Thus, for example, it seems like Harvard is the only school where there are more African-American's then Asian's attending. This is despite the fact that Harvard UG is approx. 9% AA and approx. 18% Asian, roughly speaking.

Now for the stuff that could be affecting this numbers enough to mean that there is no negative association with Asian applicants at all:

-Asians are more likely to go towards science/ medical track fields than law school. This has been shown in quite a lot of research and definitely contributes to fewer Asian law school applicants. The caveat is that there should still be quite a lot of top Asian law school applicants considering the percentage of Asians in top UG's.

-Location, school preference, etc. : For example, Stanford has more Asian applicants because of its location. Columbia blows NYU out of the water, 15% to 10%, perhaps because of greater emphasize on the Columbia Ivy League name over NYU. However, this raises the fact that Harvard might experience the same effect of increased applicants. (Also might be true for other minorities, remember seeing something about AA applicants preferring H out of HYS too).

-The numbers are spread out that way due to school preferences. For example, Chicago is known for not being very URM friendly, which is probably affecting its numbers.

Anyways take of it what you will, the actual data I can find isn't very conclusive or glaring... in the end I think there is little to no effect so you probably don't have to worry too much about it. I don't think I saw an effect in my admissions cycle either.


Ivies do seem to have more Asian students (for law school). Cornell and Penn both have nearly 14%.

Edit: UCLA with 18%. Lols.

r6_philly
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Re: Is Asian Amerian an URM?

Postby r6_philly » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:31 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:Ivies do seem to have more Asian students (for law school). Cornell and Penn both have nearly 14%.

Edit: UCLA with 18%. Lols.


Asian population is a lot higher in CA, UCLA doesn't surprise me. Actually it maybe be a little lower than Berkeley.

14% is a lot lower than UG, or many other grad schools within the university at Penn. I still think not as many Asians pursue law as a career as oppose to say medicine and engineering.

Na_Swatch may be right that Asians are under represented in firms, but how could that be if generally Asians have been over 10% at law schools for some time?

Better yet, is there a correlation with gender issue as well when it comes to firm advancement and hiring since at most schools Asian females outnumber males almost 2 to 1.

r6_philly
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Re: Is Asian Amerian an URM?

Postby r6_philly » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:36 pm

What about comparing % in elite UG to elite LS? Let's say if URM % are in line, that means you get about par treatment for both. If Asian % is higher in elite UG but lower in elite LS AND if (a big if) the same same proportion of Asians apply to elite LS as oppose to white counterparts, then there could be some disadvantage there.

If we could compare % make up of all LSAC applicants from elite UG to % make up of elite LS students then maybe we can make a casual observation.

whymeohgodno
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Re: Is Asian Amerian an URM?

Postby whymeohgodno » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:45 pm

Some schools have such a small Asian population.

Vanderbilt has a 3.5% Asian population. That's less than half of their African American population which is 9.1.

Do Asians get a URM boost at Vandy then? :D :D

r6_philly
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Re: Is Asian Amerian an URM?

Postby r6_philly » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:50 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:Some schools have such a small Asian population.

Vanderbilt has a 3.5% Asian population. That's less than half of their African American population which is 9.1.

Do Asians get a URM boost at Vandy then? :D :D


I don't know, but Asians don't penetrate too far inland. The population is saturated along the coasts. I used to drive all over the country, and I think 3.5% may actually be higher than the local population percentage. I don't think location such as Nashville is really appealing to the Asian applicants.

whymeohgodno
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Re: Is Asian Amerian an URM?

Postby whymeohgodno » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:52 pm

r6_philly wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:Some schools have such a small Asian population.

Vanderbilt has a 3.5% Asian population. That's less than half of their African American population which is 9.1.

Do Asians get a URM boost at Vandy then? :D :D


I don't know, but Asians don't penetrate too far inland. The population is saturated along the coasts. I used to drive all over the country, and I think 3.5% may actually be higher than the local population percentage. I don't think location such as Nashville is really appealing to the Asian applicants.


Won't disagree with you there.

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Adjudicator
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Re: Is Asian Amerian an URM?

Postby Adjudicator » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:54 pm

I don't think a location such as Nashville is really appealing to anyone.

Unless your last name is Judd.

acrossthelake
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Re: Is Asian Amerian an URM?

Postby acrossthelake » Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:05 pm

Adjudicator wrote:I don't think a location such as Nashville is really appealing to anyone.

Unless your last name is Judd.


QFT

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ahduth
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Re: Is Asian Amerian an URM?

Postby ahduth » Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:51 pm

I thought this thread was going to be about Asian Armenians. I feel kind of cheated.

gtrwanka
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Re: Is Asian Amerian an URM?

Postby gtrwanka » Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:01 pm

Well I could apply to Howard Law and use the Asian American URM card there.

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: Is Asian Amerian an URM?

Postby Nom Sawyer » Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:06 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:Some schools have such a small Asian population.

Vanderbilt has a 3.5% Asian population. That's less than half of their African American population which is 9.1.

Do Asians get a URM boost at Vandy then? :D :D


I don't know, but Asians don't penetrate too far inland. The population is saturated along the coasts. I used to drive all over the country, and I think 3.5% may actually be higher than the local population percentage. I don't think location such as Nashville is really appealing to the Asian applicants.


Won't disagree with you there.



huh? I don't think this is necessarily the case... Vanderbilt has been doing heavy recruitment among minorities recently and there are def more Asians now then before. I went to Vandy and they gave me great support and also probably helped me get into a T6 law school.




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