Criminal Record and Law School

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TommyK
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Re: Criminal Record and Law School

Postby TommyK » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:03 pm

justadude55 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
edubs003 wrote:
IAFG wrote:Law schools are not going to admit you unless they think it is likely you will pass character and fitness. An unapologetic convicted rapist is probably not going to get through.


Well that's not what I was convicted of, check the state statutes. Also, did you even read my PS?

I did, and I actually think you're a good writer. I still think you won't pass.

to play devil's advocate, what does being a sexual batter/rapist have to do with being a good lawyer? can't you argue that a lawyer who lies on his taxes is more inclined to be a dishonest lawyer?


If he had a low lsat, bad gpa, and a federal conviction of tax evasion, I would likely be giving the same advice to find a new career, but I suppose this isn't the kind of advice that OP is looking for. I still think there's promise in this PS - personal story about how you felt the criminal justice system was used against you because you weren't informed and didn't have access to competent counsel. There's promise there, I think. And I think it colors the situation with more context than an addendum could.

justadude55
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Re: Criminal Record and Law School

Postby justadude55 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:04 pm

edubs003 wrote:
justadude55 wrote:if this is all true, why don't you sue the police department? it sounds like they were grossly negligent in a way that damaged the quality of both your present and future. if you sued and woman, and had the conviction overturned, you would have no bar issues whatsoever.


I pled guilty. I don't think I can sue anyone now. Also, I hired a PI but that didn't mean shit to the court.

what did u do with her? u skipped over that in the PS. i'd really want to know that if u go this route. from it, it seems like u spent some money to buy her some drinks, got mad she wouldn't give into your advances, raped her and plead down.

justadude55
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Re: Criminal Record and Law School

Postby justadude55 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:05 pm

if he had low lsat, bad gpa and was the nicest guy in the world, you'd give that same advice so what difference does it make?

edubs003
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Re: Criminal Record and Law School

Postby edubs003 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:06 pm

justadude55 wrote:
edubs003 wrote:
justadude55 wrote:if this is all true, why don't you sue the police department? it sounds like they were grossly negligent in a way that damaged the quality of both your present and future. if you sued and woman, and had the conviction overturned, you would have no bar issues whatsoever.


I pled guilty. I don't think I can sue anyone now. Also, I hired a PI but that didn't mean shit to the court.

i'm confused. just because a woman wanted to sleep with u once does not give u access to her whenever. if that was the case, with the attractiveness of some of the women ive been with, i can assure you i would not be writing this right now.


No, it's not like that. I'm saying that she lied on the stand when my attorney was asking her questions. One of which was "have you slept together before that night?" She also lied by saying "I wasn't planning on sleeping over." The whole thing was just a huge fuck-up. It was more of a he said, she said type thing.

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TommyK
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Re: Criminal Record and Law School

Postby TommyK » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:06 pm

justadude55 wrote:
edubs003 wrote:
justadude55 wrote:if this is all true, why don't you sue the police department? it sounds like they were grossly negligent in a way that damaged the quality of both your present and future. if you sued and woman, and had the conviction overturned, you would have no bar issues whatsoever.


I pled guilty. I don't think I can sue anyone now. Also, I hired a PI but that didn't mean shit to the court.

what did u do with her? u skipped over that in the PS. i'd really want to know that if u go this route. from it, it seems like u spent some money to buy her some drinks, got mad she wouldn't give into your advances, raped her and plead down.


In some states, if the woman is drunk, she can not legally give consent and if she can't give consent, it is sexual assault. If I had to take a guess, it might be something along these lines.

Which is why I videotape all my sexual encounters and have them take a field sobriety test prior... and sometimes during

edubs003
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Re: Criminal Record and Law School

Postby edubs003 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:15 pm

TommyK wrote:
justadude55 wrote:
edubs003 wrote:
justadude55 wrote:if this is all true, why don't you sue the police department? it sounds like they were grossly negligent in a way that damaged the quality of both your present and future. if you sued and woman, and had the conviction overturned, you would have no bar issues whatsoever.


I pled guilty. I don't think I can sue anyone now. Also, I hired a PI but that didn't mean shit to the court.

what did u do with her? u skipped over that in the PS. i'd really want to know that if u go this route. from it, it seems like u spent some money to buy her some drinks, got mad she wouldn't give into your advances, raped her and plead down.


In some states, if the woman is drunk, she can not legally give consent and if she can't give consent, it is sexual assault. If I had to take a guess, it might be something along these lines.


Well I don't want to get to specific but it's along those lines. I did have heavier charges and wanted to go to trial but there's a huge risk with that. We all know that innocent people have been sent to prison. I didn't want to leave my fate up to 8-12 average Americans. Has anybody ever heard of the bail being raised after you're already bailed out? She worked for a jail, knew cops, and I'm pretty sure had something to do with the prosecutor and the deal...knowing I would be sent to jail anyways, which I've heard is pretty rare. It is what it is but it doesn't define me. And hopefully law schools will see that in my PS.

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TommyK
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Re: Criminal Record and Law School

Postby TommyK » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:20 pm

Yeah, and I'm not prompting for details. Sounds like you brought home a nutcase and got fucked over (seriously, no pun). Good luck on your cycle.

That might also be an interesting take on your PS if you had a public defender - sometimes those public defenders are so overworked that they just push their clients to take the plea deal, even when that might not be the best path. Talking about your passion for providing the best representation to indigent clients.

justadude55
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Re: Criminal Record and Law School

Postby justadude55 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:30 pm

or just don't do anything with a woman below the belt unless ur sure u can trust her. there are many (edit: crazy) women out there who would love the attention and potential financial gain that would come with making garbage up.

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Lonagan
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Re: Criminal Record and Law School

Postby Lonagan » Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:32 pm

edubs003 wrote:
justadude55 wrote:if this is all true, why don't you sue the police department? it sounds like they were grossly negligent in a way that damaged the quality of both your present and future. if you sued and woman, and had the conviction overturned, you would have no bar issues whatsoever.

EDIT: At any rate, this is a terrible PS, because it does the opposite of what a good PS should do - help you get in. if i read this, i'd think hmmmmmm, our students getting sexually battered....that sounds like something that might be bad. let me lightly reject this person so they don't pull a joran van der sleuth at our school.


I've had people tell me it's good, and people have told me it's bad. I don't really know what the adcom will think but I hope it's the opposite.


You hope it is the opposite of what?

I would not use this PS. If want to be something other than "the applicant who went to prison" then you should probably not spend any more time talking about this than you have to. Write an addendum. Explain very briefly what happened. Don't try to pass it off as getting railroaded. Note that you faced a choice between a low sentence and risking a much higher one, and chose conservatively. Take responsibility for your alcohol problem. Note your success with that problem. Then write a PS that emphasizes your better points.

edubs003
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Re: Criminal Record and Law School

Postby edubs003 » Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:59 pm

Lonagan wrote:
edubs003 wrote:
justadude55 wrote:if this is all true, why don't you sue the police department? it sounds like they were grossly negligent in a way that damaged the quality of both your present and future. if you sued and woman, and had the conviction overturned, you would have no bar issues whatsoever.

EDIT: At any rate, this is a terrible PS, because it does the opposite of what a good PS should do - help you get in. if i read this, i'd think hmmmmmm, our students getting sexually battered....that sounds like something that might be bad. let me lightly reject this person so they don't pull a joran van der sleuth at our school.


I've had people tell me it's good, and people have told me it's bad. I don't really know what the adcom will think but I hope it's the opposite.


You hope it is the opposite of what?

I would not use this PS. If want to be something other than "the applicant who went to prison" then you should probably not spend any more time talking about this than you have to. Write an addendum. Explain very briefly what happened. Don't try to pass it off as getting railroaded. Note that you faced a choice between a low sentence and risking a much higher one, and chose conservatively. Take responsibility for your alcohol problem. Note your success with that problem. Then write a PS that emphasizes your better points.


My statement does everything that you just said to do. I talk about the choice I made with the plea deal, took responsibility for my alcohol problems, and emphasized my success with that. My addendum just reiterates these points. I've also got another statement, but that's being used as my DS. I really don't know what to think right now. Many people have said it's good and is well written and others are like you, saying don't use it. It's already been sent to quite a few schools.

I'm hoping that the admissions offices will see it as sincere and honest. Not thinking about the mistakes I've made but what I've learned, accomplished, and how I've become a better person through this experience. That's the whole point of this statement. I really hope it doesn't come off as the "applicant who went to prison."

Saltqjibo
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Re: Criminal Record and Law School

Postby Saltqjibo » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:05 am

The other posters are right. As much as this has been a huge part of your life you don't want to be the "prison" guy. As odd as it sounds, you can downplay the importance of this. People do get (wrongly) accused of sexual assault, play up the "didn't want to risk trial", "deal messaround" in a (detailed) addendum, and focus on all your positive points in a PS.

DreamShake
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Re: Criminal Record and Law School

Postby DreamShake » Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:54 am

edubs003 wrote:My statement does everything that you just said to do. I talk about the choice I made with the plea deal, took responsibility for my alcohol problems, and emphasized my success with that. My addendum just reiterates these points. I've also got another statement, but that's being used as my DS. I really don't know what to think right now. Many people have said it's good and is well written and others are like you, saying don't use it. It's already been sent to quite a few schools.

I'm hoping that the admissions offices will see it as sincere and honest. Not thinking about the mistakes I've made but what I've learned, accomplished, and how I've become a better person through this experience. That's the whole point of this statement. I really hope it doesn't come off as the "applicant who went to prison."


Something can be good and well-written without being applicable. This essay is good and well-written, but it's not suited to being a PS. PS's are for making adcomms glow at the possibility of gushing about you to their peers. Or avoiding making them puke if you have great numbers.

The way you describe your desires for this essay is exactly is exactly right--it should focus on what you've learned/accomplished and how you've grown as a person. But the statement does not succeed in doing these things.

justadude55
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Re: Criminal Record and Law School

Postby justadude55 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:37 am

you should probably speak to somebody you know or go through your school to get information about this. it is an important choice that will influence your future, and you should not take your advice solely from people on the internet.

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lalalawya
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Re: Criminal Record and Law School

Postby lalalawya » Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:53 am

Not sure how much this helps in determining whether you will be admitted to the bar based on your past history, but look at chart 2 of this: --LinkRemoved-- . It looks like only ten or so states say that being a convicted felon will keep you from practicing.

edubs003
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Re: Criminal Record and Law School

Postby edubs003 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:44 pm

lalalawya wrote:Not sure how much this helps in determining whether you will be admitted to the bar based on your past history, but look at chart 2 of this: --LinkRemoved-- . It looks like only ten or so states say that being a convicted felon will keep you from practicing.


Thanks, that was really helpful.

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TommyK
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Re: Criminal Record and Law School

Postby TommyK » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:09 pm

edubs003 wrote:
lalalawya wrote:Not sure how much this helps in determining whether you will be admitted to the bar based on your past history, but look at chart 2 of this: --LinkRemoved-- . It looks like only ten or so states say that being a convicted felon will keep you from practicing.


Thanks, that was really helpful.


To clarify, that probably should read that those are the only states in which a felony is an automatic disqualifier. I'm sure nearly all states have used and will continue to use felony convictions as rationale for not permitting somebody to sit for the bar.

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lalalawya
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Re: Criminal Record and Law School

Postby lalalawya » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:38 pm

TommyK wrote:
edubs003 wrote:
lalalawya wrote:Not sure how much this helps in determining whether you will be admitted to the bar based on your past history, but look at chart 2 of this: --LinkRemoved-- . It looks like only ten or so states say that being a convicted felon will keep you from practicing.


Thanks, that was really helpful.


To clarify, that probably should read that those are the only states in which a felony is an automatic disqualifier. I'm sure nearly all states have used and will continue to use felony convictions as rationale for not permitting somebody to sit for the bar.


Yeah, there is a section in that link that specifically discusses this. For example, Idaho says it is not an automatic bar, but it may affect finding of good moral character.

EDIT: The majority of the states in the detailed breakdown section, immediately after the chart, say something to the effect of: "applicant bears the burden of establishing proof of good moral character, rehabilitation, etc."
I would at this point, do EVERYTHING in your power to make this task easier. i.e. join organizations geared towards released prisoners, join AA (even though you have stopped drinking, it may be good to show you are still committed to your sobriety), anything that would work in your favor to shine you in good moral light.
You say that you do not allow this past incident to define you, but unfortunately to the law school admissions committee and the bar examiners--it is probably going to be your most defining trait. Do everything in your power to make sure the definition of your character they walk away with is not a negative one; rather, make sure they see you as a truly remorseful (innocent or not), changed individual who wants to do everything in their power to make sure no one else is put in the situation you were.

Good luck!
Last edited by lalalawya on Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lonagan
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Re: Criminal Record and Law School

Postby Lonagan » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:42 pm

edubs003 wrote:
Lonagan wrote:
edubs003 wrote:
justadude55 wrote:if this is all true, why don't you sue the police department? it sounds like they were grossly negligent in a way that damaged the quality of both your present and future. if you sued and woman, and had the conviction overturned, you would have no bar issues whatsoever.

EDIT: At any rate, this is a terrible PS, because it does the opposite of what a good PS should do - help you get in. if i read this, i'd think hmmmmmm, our students getting sexually battered....that sounds like something that might be bad. let me lightly reject this person so they don't pull a joran van der sleuth at our school.


I've had people tell me it's good, and people have told me it's bad. I don't really know what the adcom will think but I hope it's the opposite.


You hope it is the opposite of what?

I would not use this PS. If want to be something other than "the applicant who went to prison" then you should probably not spend any more time talking about this than you have to. Write an addendum. Explain very briefly what happened. Don't try to pass it off as getting railroaded. Note that you faced a choice between a low sentence and risking a much higher one, and chose conservatively. Take responsibility for your alcohol problem. Note your success with that problem. Then write a PS that emphasizes your better points.


My statement does everything that you just said to do. I talk about the choice I made with the plea deal, took responsibility for my alcohol problems, and emphasized my success with that. My addendum just reiterates these points. I've also got another statement, but that's being used as my DS. I really don't know what to think right now. Many people have said it's good and is well written and others are like you, saying don't use it. It's already been sent to quite a few schools.

I'm hoping that the admissions offices will see it as sincere and honest. Not thinking about the mistakes I've made but what I've learned, accomplished, and how I've become a better person through this experience. That's the whole point of this statement. I really hope it doesn't come off as the "applicant who went to prison."


Yeah, your personal statement does everything your addendum does. However, it does not do "everything" I suggested because it does not emphasize the better aspects of your life and character. If your addendum just reiterates what your PS says, what are you hoping to accomplish? You *have* to say all this in your addendum. Once you do that, it serves no constructive purpose to say it again. Your PS is your chance to say something completely good about yourself.

All of that being said, if you came here to ask for opinions after you sent this to numerous schools then I doubt how much you are actually looking for advice. The overwhelming response in this thread has been not to do it, yet you are characterizing the one or two suggestions that you use it as being somehow equivalent. It looks like you have made up your mind and want people to affirm your decision.

edubs003
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Re: Criminal Record and Law School

Postby edubs003 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:21 pm

[/quote]Yeah, your personal statement does everything your addendum does. However, it does not do "everything" I suggested because it does not emphasize the better aspects of your life and character. If your addendum just reiterates what your PS says, what are you hoping to accomplish? You *have* to say all this in your addendum. Once you do that, it serves no constructive purpose to say it again. Your PS is your chance to say something completely good about yourself.

All of that being said, if you came here to ask for opinions after you sent this to numerous schools then I doubt how much you are actually looking for advice. The overwhelming response in this thread has been not to do it, yet you are characterizing the one or two suggestions that you use it as being somehow equivalent. It looks like you have made up your mind and want people to affirm your decision.[/quote]

I was just looking for overall advice about the incident. My PS is the best way to explain it. My addendum speaks more of positive things, like my GPA increase, and lists a few facts on my incidents. Then there is a paragraph that wraps everything up. I have a DS that I've attached to many applications which is more positive. I just wanted to know about the C&F test and what people thought of the whole subject. Thank you all for your help!




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