Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

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Bankhead
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby Bankhead » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:15 pm

I disagree with most of the advice given to the OP. While I do not have objective stats, I have observed the following as a 2L at a top 10:

It seems that most people have biglaw jobs, if they desired them. For those who don't have jobs, I see no correlation between work experience and no work experience and whether they do or do not have jobs. I know plenty of people who went straight through and did extremely well at OCI (V20+).

I had a difficult time getting a job, and I do have work experience. I lost out often to people who had no work experience. It's mainly a combination between grades and interviewing skills. If you have some (any) extracurriculars in college, and you can talk about your 1L summer job, you should be fine.

Equally ridiculous are people grouping schools into rigid tiers. Penn did better than Chicago this year, it seems. NYU did better than Harvard, I've heard. Perhaps not, but there doesn't seem to be any truly measurable difference in terms of biglaw employment between the tiers.

I would advise the OP not to take time off for the reason he/she cited. I think the biggest problem is people try to quantify this shit. It's a fucking stressful process, but it's difficult to really point out any particular factor that makes one successful at getting a 2L summer job vs. not.

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ahduth
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby ahduth » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:18 pm

FlanAl wrote:haha I definitely realize this I was just wondering if being a barista etc would hurt you in an interview. seems like you could do the same bs talk that you'd have doing clerical/admin stuff about project deadlines, time management, leadership skills etc. if you were a barista. I just don't know how they'd take it.


With a little room for cream. Yeah, I think the type of WE definitely matters when you're going into OCI. Consultants/accountants/finance geeks probably get all sorts of points. I knowz how to read a balance sheet durr.

I think it's also just a general maturity thing - they want associates, not gophers who are going to hover around their desks all day trying to get the good work by being there first.

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JazzOne
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby JazzOne » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:22 pm

Bankhead wrote:I disagree with most of the advice given to the OP. While I do not have objective stats, I have observed the following as a 2L at a top 10:

It seems that most people have biglaw jobs, if they desired them. For those who don't have jobs, I see no correlation between work experience and no work experience and whether they do or do not have jobs. I know plenty of people who went straight through and did extremely well at OCI (V20+).

I had a difficult time getting a job, and I do have work experience. I lost out often to people who had no work experience. It's mainly a combination between grades and interviewing skills. If you have some (any) extracurriculars in college, and you can talk about your 1L summer job, you should be fine.

Equally ridiculous are people grouping schools into rigid tiers. Penn did better than Chicago this year, it seems. NYU did better than Harvard, I've heard. Perhaps not, but there doesn't seem to be any truly measurable difference in terms of biglaw employment between the tiers.

I would advise the OP not to take time off for the reason he/she cited. I think the biggest problem is people try to quantify this shit. It's a fucking stressful process, but it's difficult to really point out any particular factor that makes one successful at getting a 2L summer job vs. not.

As much as I'd love to say that WE helps, my story was similar to this. I have nearly a decade of WE, some of it managing a small corporation. It didn't help me at all. I think the only reason I got hired is because I am a member of Law Review and a prestigious legal research organization.

vicuna
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby vicuna » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:05 am

Interesting discussion. Two questions:

1) The general consensus seems to be that HYSCCN may be worth attending without going for WE first, while MVP is a bit more of a toss-up. Does this mean that the lower T14 (DNCG) are not even worth discussing?

2) Most of the hypotheticals revolve around BigLaw, but how important is WE for OCI for other legal fields, like PI/Gov or clerkships? More? Less?

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MrKappus
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby MrKappus » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:19 am

Thought I'd add my $0.02. I went to a top UG, but I attend a T30 law school. At my law school, WE doesn't seem to be a particularly effective "soft" for OCI hiring. The top students w/ LR got Vault offers (I'm fortunate to be among them). From my personal experience (which is all I can really speak to), I know that my WE was incredibly helpful during interviewing. If I hadn't had experience consulting for in-house lawyers, I'm not really sure what I would've talked about during interviews.

That said, b/c I went to a pretty OK UG, I know a ton of people who attend law schools that are far more elite than mine. Those people seem to have gotten biglaw if they wanted it, as long as they had the credentials for it. WE didn't seem determinative, one way or the other.

So, in my opinion, TCR here is: WE, especially highly relevant WE, won't ever hurt, and it'll often help, but lack of it's surmountable.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby 09042014 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:24 am

vicuna wrote:Interesting discussion. Two questions:

1) The general consensus seems to be that HYSCCN may be worth attending without going for WE first, while MVP is a bit more of a toss-up. Does this mean that the lower T14 (DNCG) are not even worth discussing?

2) Most of the hypotheticals revolve around BigLaw, but how important is WE for OCI for other legal fields, like PI/Gov or clerkships? More? Less?


DN and probably even C are just as good at MV; and Penn probably has a slight edge of them all.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby 09042014 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:25 am

I wouldn't hire a K through JD for a stressful job. Work sucks and I don't want to be the employeer who is paying them while they learn that lesson.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby MrKappus » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:29 am

Desert Fox wrote:I wouldn't hire a K through JD for a stressful job. Work sucks and I don't want to be the employeer who is paying them while they learn that lesson.


+1. I've never hired lawyers (I've fired a few), but if you don't know what it's like to get into the office at 8 and leave at 10 for a few weeks (or months) in a row, I'm not sure I'd want you learning that lesson on my dime. That said, if you're obviously a go-getter in an interview, hiring people probably make an exception.

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JazzOne
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby JazzOne » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:37 am

MrKappus wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I wouldn't hire a K through JD for a stressful job. Work sucks and I don't want to be the employeer who is paying them while they learn that lesson.


+1. I've never hired lawyers (I've fired a few), but if you don't know what it's like to get into the office at 8 and leave at 10 for a few weeks (or months) in a row, I'm not sure I'd want you learning that lesson on my dime. That said, if you're obviously a go-getter in an interview, hiring people probably make an exception.

Yeah, one of my classmates is 24, and I think he knew he wanted to be a litigator since he was 7 or something. He actually has three jobs this summer. They told him the minimum was six weeks, and he said, "Better make it 5." lol This guy is on Law Review, in a competitive research organization with me, and his GPA is baller. Plus, he's just a really nice guy, and he's smart as hell. He had no problem whatsoever getting job offers. He split his 1L summer. I imagine there are some cats that you just can't imagine failing at life.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby 09042014 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:47 am

JazzOne wrote:
MrKappus wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I wouldn't hire a K through JD for a stressful job. Work sucks and I don't want to be the employeer who is paying them while they learn that lesson.


+1. I've never hired lawyers (I've fired a few), but if you don't know what it's like to get into the office at 8 and leave at 10 for a few weeks (or months) in a row, I'm not sure I'd want you learning that lesson on my dime. That said, if you're obviously a go-getter in an interview, hiring people probably make an exception.

Yeah, one of my classmates is 24, and I think he knew he wanted to be a litigator since he was 7 or something. He actually has three jobs this summer. They told him the minimum was six weeks, and he said, "Better make it 5." lol This guy is on Law Review, in a competitive research organization with me, and his GPA is baller. Plus, he's just a really nice guy, and he's smart as hell. He had no problem whatsoever getting job offers. He split his 1L summer. I imagine there are some cats that you just can't imagine failing at life.


This is kinda what I'm talking about. What are the odds this guy makes it 3 years at his firm before bailing for something else?

I don't think they are worse law students, he'll they may even be better law students.

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JazzOne
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby JazzOne » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:48 am

Desert Fox wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
MrKappus wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I wouldn't hire a K through JD for a stressful job. Work sucks and I don't want to be the employeer who is paying them while they learn that lesson.


+1. I've never hired lawyers (I've fired a few), but if you don't know what it's like to get into the office at 8 and leave at 10 for a few weeks (or months) in a row, I'm not sure I'd want you learning that lesson on my dime. That said, if you're obviously a go-getter in an interview, hiring people probably make an exception.

Yeah, one of my classmates is 24, and I think he knew he wanted to be a litigator since he was 7 or something. He actually has three jobs this summer. They told him the minimum was six weeks, and he said, "Better make it 5." lol This guy is on Law Review, in a competitive research organization with me, and his GPA is baller. Plus, he's just a really nice guy, and he's smart as hell. He had no problem whatsoever getting job offers. He split his 1L summer. I imagine there are some cats that you just can't imagine failing at life.


This is kinda what I'm talking about. What are the odds this guy makes it 3 years at his firm before bailing for something else?

I don't think they are worse law students, he'll they may even be better law students.

Nah, he's legit. He'll pick a firm and probably make partner. I've had a lot of chats with him about our careers, and his head is on straight. He's just that much in demand that he can negotiate. He's not begging for a fucking job. We're talking about V50 firms here, and he's going to have three offers at the end of the summer. I have no doubt. He knew precisely which markets he was targeting.

Plus, I might add that splitting is common here in Texas. I have two jobs this summer. Most of my friends on LR have two jobs. It's just how we do it down here.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby 09042014 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:54 am

JazzOne wrote:Nah, he's legit. He'll pick a firm and probably make partner. I've had a lot of chats with him about our careers, and his head is on straight. He's just that much in demand that he can negotiate. He's not begging for a fucking job. We're talking about V50 firms here.


Gotcha. I think the maturity level comes into play for most people though. I know my ideas about the working world were naive when I graduated, and I was one of the more grounded people.

I don't think work experience will make one a better lawyer. I just think it reduces the probably of disillusionment with the reality of the legal field.

Work can be boring and monotonous.

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MrKappus
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby MrKappus » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:57 am

JazzOne wrote:Nah, he's legit. He'll pick a firm and probably make partner. I've had a lot of chats with him about our careers, and his head is on straight. He's just that much in demand that he can negotiate. He's not begging for a fucking job. We're talking about V50 firms here, and he's going to have three offers at the end of the summer. I have no doubt. He knew precisely which markets he was targeting.

Plus, I might add that splitting is common here in Texas. I have two jobs this summer. Most of my friends on LR have two jobs. It's just how we do it down here.


I like JazzOne and think he's one of the more sensible posters, but your boy sounds like a prime candidate for first-year associate fail. It's happened to far better people than him.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby JazzOne » Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:01 am

MrKappus wrote:
JazzOne wrote:Nah, he's legit. He'll pick a firm and probably make partner. I've had a lot of chats with him about our careers, and his head is on straight. He's just that much in demand that he can negotiate. He's not begging for a fucking job. We're talking about V50 firms here, and he's going to have three offers at the end of the summer. I have no doubt. He knew precisely which markets he was targeting.

Plus, I might add that splitting is common here in Texas. I have two jobs this summer. Most of my friends on LR have two jobs. It's just how we do it down here.


I like JazzOne and think he's one of the more sensible posters, but your boy sounds like a prime candidate for first-year associate fail. It's happened to far better people than him.

These are surprising reactions. Out of everyone in my entire class, I have the most respect for this chap. He's never a jerk about his success. And his knowledge of the industry and the firms is really impressive. Before each of my interviews, I would check with him to make sure I hadn't missed any research.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby 09042014 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:07 am

JazzOne wrote:
MrKappus wrote:
JazzOne wrote:Nah, he's legit. He'll pick a firm and probably make partner. I've had a lot of chats with him about our careers, and his head is on straight. He's just that much in demand that he can negotiate. He's not begging for a fucking job. We're talking about V50 firms here, and he's going to have three offers at the end of the summer. I have no doubt. He knew precisely which markets he was targeting.

Plus, I might add that splitting is common here in Texas. I have two jobs this summer. Most of my friends on LR have two jobs. It's just how we do it down here.


I like JazzOne and think he's one of the more sensible posters, but your boy sounds like a prime candidate for first-year associate fail. It's happened to far better people than him.

These are surprising reactions. Out of everyone in my entire class, I have the most respect for this chap. He's never a jerk about his success. And his knowledge of the industry and the firms is really impressive. Before each of my interviews, I would check with him to make sure I hadn't missed any research.


Because 17 years of dreaming of being a litigator might not match up to reality of doc review. He loves being a litigator before he really knows what being a litigator is. Sure he's researched what each firm does, but from everyone I've talked to you aren't doing exciting work the first couple years. I'd be worried he might freak out if the reality doesn't meet his expectations.

I could be totally off base. But I think that kind of reaction would be more common in straight through kids.

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JazzOne
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby JazzOne » Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:09 am

Desert Fox wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
MrKappus wrote:
JazzOne wrote:Nah, he's legit. He'll pick a firm and probably make partner. I've had a lot of chats with him about our careers, and his head is on straight. He's just that much in demand that he can negotiate. He's not begging for a fucking job. We're talking about V50 firms here, and he's going to have three offers at the end of the summer. I have no doubt. He knew precisely which markets he was targeting.

Plus, I might add that splitting is common here in Texas. I have two jobs this summer. Most of my friends on LR have two jobs. It's just how we do it down here.


I like JazzOne and think he's one of the more sensible posters, but your boy sounds like a prime candidate for first-year associate fail. It's happened to far better people than him.

These are surprising reactions. Out of everyone in my entire class, I have the most respect for this chap. He's never a jerk about his success. And his knowledge of the industry and the firms is really impressive. Before each of my interviews, I would check with him to make sure I hadn't missed any research.


Because 17 years of dreaming of being a litigator might not match up to reality of doc review. He loves being a litigator before he really knows what being a litigator is. Sure he's researched what each firm does, but from everyone I've talked to you aren't doing exciting work the first couple years. I'd be worried he might freak out if the reality doesn't meet his expectations.

I could be totally off base. But I think that kind of reaction would be more common in straight through kids.

OK, fair enough. I've never really asked him about his personal connections. I always assumed he had lawyers in his immediate family because he just knew too much. I mean, I'm on the internet all damn day, and still he would give me little bits of information about Texas firms that I didn't know, and I was always like, how the hell do you know that?

Edit: Even if he does flame out, my main point was that his lack of WE didn't hurt him at all in the hiring process.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby 09042014 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:19 am

JazzOne wrote:OK, fair enough. I've never really asked him about his personal connections. I always assumed he had lawyers in his immediate family because he just knew too much. I mean, I'm on the internet all damn day, and still he would give me little bits of information about Texas firms that I didn't know, and I was always like, how the hell do you know that?

Edit: Even if he does flame out, my main point was that his lack of WE didn't hurt him at all in the hiring process.


From what I hear from 2L's at my school is those with grades weren't hurt without having something extra like W/E or something like that.

But that if you were below median you need something extra. Something like W/E, great interview skills, something to make you stand out. There isn't any firm that won't hire someone because of no W/E.

The vast majority of law students have little no impressive W/E.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby 09042014 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:24 am

I wouldn't delay law school just for W/E. I do recommend time off, I think it helps you figure out what you want in life. But taking time off purely for that? Crazy. That's taking TLS/XO common wisdom way too far.

A lot of fairly true things get hyped on these websites because people are just repeating what they hear.

People with W/E do a little better than people without. Then it's repeated 5 million times, and then all the sudden you have 0L's taking jobs as desk jockey's to pwn OCI. Crazy.

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The Stig
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby The Stig » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:56 pm

thanks to all those who have posted so far...your perspective has been really insightful to how OCI has gone based off one's WE!




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