Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

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The Stig
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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby The Stig » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:55 pm

rayiner wrote:Class of '14 will do OCI in two years. The market will likely have recovered substantially, but it won't be boom times again.

The underlying issue is... why do you think WE = giving up a T14 acceptance? Application volumes have spiked in the recession, but it's unlikely to continue to get worse. After the 2000 recession application volumes spiked but then dropped back down.


I definitely don't believe WE is giving up a T14 acceptance in general, but for me it would essentially be. I have already applied this cycle and am pretty set on going next year (and have been accepted a couple places). I also have done nothing about getting a job, and from what my friends (comparable in experience to me) have said, it's not exactly easy to pick one up right now!

Some people mentioned deferrals, which is obviously an option-is there a thread about how easy/difficult these are to obtain from various T14s?

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby The Stig » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:06 pm

vanwinkle wrote:Even at HYS, some people have struggled this year at OCI, and WE makes a difference. WE helps you stand out against those who're here without any WE, and also can help give you the real-life discipline to do better during 1L and get grades that help you stand out, as well.


I've talked to a decent amount of umich law students, and they agreed with the increase in discipline for them personally. Essentially, that they now have better discipline than if they were to go straight through. That said, they (and some admissions deans I have heard from) also agreed that those who went straight through tended to get better grades, as they were in "school mode." Is it that the people straight through have more discipline to begin with?<- not intended to be a knock on WE people...

I'm curious to hear from some more law students as to how this plays out at your school. As a 0L, I feel as though I have found what I need to do to be a "good student" and just a little worried about getting out of that mode for too long (if I went for WE).

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby FlanAl » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:07 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
aesis wrote:At the risk of sounding ignorant --

What kind of WE are we talking about here? Are we talking salaries or anything that is full-time, daily grind kind of work? Or is it an emphasis on managerial / supervisor type positions? Or Americorps?

Any full-time employment post-UG will help to some degree. Mine was particularly impressive because it was supervisory (showing I could handle being both above and below other levels of employees) and because it was safety-sensitive (if you can operate machinery/equipment that could kill people, you're probably going to be responsible when handling large client transactions).

It was blue-collar work. I came from a blue-collar family and knew I could make more money there after UG than temping or PT with my bullshit BS degree. I also knew that supervisors there had a degree requirement that was often waived because nobody had both the degree and work experience to move up. I put in the time until I was eligible and then jumped the line for promotions by actually having a degree, even though my major had nothing to do with the job.

Of course, I did all that not yet knowing I was going to law school. But it ended up being a good job with a living wage and benefits that taught me a lot practically in terms of skills and perspectives that actually translated well to law firm and PI org interviews. If I knew in advance I had a planned exit strategy and good odds to make a top law school when I'd had enough, I think I would've enjoyed it even more.


the thing i wonder about WE is how many opportunities like yours are available to fresh graduates? I know you're not saying this but it seems like a lot of people on the board think its really easy to nab some kind of supervisory position right out of UG. It just really doesn't seem that way to me at all. I mean in my home city (San Diego) I know multiple people with good degrees (ivy or UC) who've been unemployed for at least the past 6 months. The ones i do know that are employed are either furthering their experience in retail or working for their parents. Its one thing to tell someone with a solid job offer out of UG to take the WE and then go to law school, but painting a rosy picture of management positions out for the picking does many a disservice.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby rayiner » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:09 pm

The Stig wrote:
rayiner wrote:Class of '14 will do OCI in two years. The market will likely have recovered substantially, but it won't be boom times again.

The underlying issue is... why do you think WE = giving up a T14 acceptance? Application volumes have spiked in the recession, but it's unlikely to continue to get worse. After the 2000 recession application volumes spiked but then dropped back down.


I definitely don't believe WE is giving up a T14 acceptance in general, but for me it would essentially be. I have already applied this cycle and am pretty set on going next year (and have been accepted a couple places). I also have done nothing about getting a job, and from what my friends (comparable in experience to me) have said, it's not exactly easy to pick one up right now!

Some people mentioned deferrals, which is obviously an option-is there a thread about how easy/difficult these are to obtain from various T14s?


Let's use you as an example. If your LSN profile is accurate, your 172/3.95 will get you CCN whether you apply now or a couple of years from now. You may or may not get HYS, but your chances will be no different whether you apply now or not. HYS's medians aren't going to go up! Indeed, a good job for even a year might give you that extra something to tip you into HYS.

You have a 3.95... of course you can get a decent job. My friend graduated with a 3.0-ish (this was back in '07) from a good state school and got a job in a company's accounting department. He was promoted within a year, got experience working on teams and managing people, responded to tight deadlines with money on the line. Is it prestigious WE? Not at all. But at OCI being able to hit those points is a big boost.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby FlanAl » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:12 pm

my guess is that your friend had an accounting degree?

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby rayiner » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:17 pm

Re: the concerns about being a "good student" and getting out of "school mode". I think they're dramatically overplayed. In law school you'll deal with failure (getting median-pwnt on your first LRW assignment), real world pressure (you're not working just for grades, but to get a job with $200k of debt staring down at you), and in the month before finals a pretty brutal study schedule.

I think whatever advantage fresh-from-UGs have in terms of being in the habit of reading a lot, etc, is outweighed by the advantage people with WE have of dealing with these issues.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby rayiner » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:18 pm

FlanAl wrote:my guess is that your friend had an accounting degree?


Management degree with finance certificate.

Still, he had a three-oh. C'mon people there are jobs out there if you have the hustle. And if you don't you're screwed at OCI anyway.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby aesis » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:25 pm

California job market right now is horrible. I know Berkeley and UCLA graduates who have been unable to find a job for 6+ months now. I've been working for 5 years now (since first year) and if you didn't pick up a job or office position while in undergrad it's extremely hard to hit even entry-level when everyone else who DID work or do internships in college are competing for those entry-level jobs.

Shit is tough out here if you don't have anything on your resume.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby FlanAl » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:26 pm

there's hustling with a management degree for management positions and then there is hustling with a humanities degree and no WE. I mean in 07 one of my friends with an anthro degree and mediocre GPA got a fat position at a company in Dubai 05-07 was a completely different animal than now. It seems like people on this board are like "Hey why don't you just be a super rad manager or I-banker for like a year and then go to law school," and I think this comes from people who graduated a few years back when that sort of thing happened way more often. I just don't see that kind of thing happening these days but that could be due to me being in California in a city with about 12% unemployment.

But on the topic of WE at OCI would having a year between UG and Law school being a barista etc. be a negative?

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby Dany » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:37 pm

For anyone who'd like to give an opinion: how useful would two years as a paralegal or other lower-level work in a law firm be? Are there better ways* to spend two years after college?

*I guess I mean, are there better ways for someone with a management/economics degree to spend two years off

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby IAFG » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:43 pm

FlanAl wrote:It seems like people on this board are like "Hey why don't you just be a super rad manager or I-banker for like a year and then go to law school," and I think this comes from people who graduated a few years back when that sort of thing happened way more often. I just don't see that kind of thing happening these days but that could be due to me being in California in a city with about 12% unemployment.

I don't think people on this board see it that way. At least I don't. By "get a job" I mean a shitty, $28k a year sales or clerical job that you will hate but that will give you some experience and some chances to learn an industry.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby rayiner » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:46 pm

eskimo wrote:For anyone who'd like to give an opinion: how useful would two years as a paralegal or other lower-level work in a law firm be? Are there better ways* to spend two years after college?

*I guess I mean, are there better ways for someone with a management/economics degree to spend two years off


Law school is full of paralegals, but it's better than a lot of other things you could do. Plus it'll really help your time management skills.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby The Stig » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:48 pm

IAFG wrote:
FlanAl wrote:It seems like people on this board are like "Hey why don't you just be a super rad manager or I-banker for like a year and then go to law school," and I think this comes from people who graduated a few years back when that sort of thing happened way more often. I just don't see that kind of thing happening these days but that could be due to me being in California in a city with about 12% unemployment.

I don't think people on this board see it that way. At least I don't. By "get a job" I mean a shitty, $28k a year sales or clerical job that you will hate but that will give you some experience and some chances to learn an industry.


See for some reason, that job does not sound so appealing :D

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby mrmangs » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:51 pm

FlanAl wrote:there's hustling with a management degree for management positions and then there is hustling with a humanities degree and no WE. I mean in 07 one of my friends with an anthro degree and mediocre GPA got a fat position at a company in Dubai 05-07 was a completely different animal than now. It seems like people on this board are like "Hey why don't you just be a super rad manager or I-banker for like a year and then go to law school," and I think this comes from people who graduated a few years back when that sort of thing happened way more often. I just don't see that kind of thing happening these days but that could be due to me being in California in a city with about 12% unemployment.

But on the topic of WE at OCI would having a year between UG and Law school being a barista etc. be a negative?


I didn't start applying to jobs until right at the time my B.A. was awarded because I was pretty sure I was going to be headed to graduate school. It only took me a couple months after deciding against getting a PhD to land a job at a law firm (in LA, so don't talk about CA being a bad job market). I eventually left that for a new one. I have a "useless" liberal arts degree and had no prior WE.

Getting a job is just about selling yourself. Other factors matter, but spam convincing, flawless cover letters and interview well, and you can get a job ITE. The problem is getting your foot in the door. Your mad interviewing skills and writing prowess won't get you anywhere if you can't get anyone to read your letter or talk to you in the first place.

Going to top UG helps a great deal in getting people to take you seriously, regardless of what you majored in. Aside from that, hit up alumni and network through friends, parents, and professors to see if you can talk to someone in a field you're interested in. And, of course, shoot out applications like a motherfucker through your school's career portal website (if it has one), Monster, and Craig's List. If you persevere through sending hundreds of applications, someone will eventually bite. Then you gotta follow up on the whole "selling yourself" part. (It was easy to convince people that my degree could be brought to bear on their work in a meaningful way. And it has, because it taught me to think critically, research effectively, write well, and analyze very complicated information. It also gave me a good writing sample.)

As I said, the quality of your UG comes into play. Your GPA will come into play. Your degree will come into play depending on how relevant it is (of course, you can make it relevant once you start talking to employers, but some majors will obviously get more attention when they just simply look at your resume).

It also depends on what sort of job you want to get. I was flirting with the idea of going into consulting, and got interviews at some top firms and a few good boutiques even though I'd never taken a single economics or accounting class, but I decided working at a law firm would be much better considering I was thinking about law school. Yes, you probably won't be able to get a job as an accountant (or even a "bookkeeper") without having studied accounting, but if you want to go the finance route, consulting is a viable option regardless of your degree. You just have to be able to solve problems. Get a case workbook and start studying. (I'm pretty sure UG quality is a big factor in getting consulting firms to take a chance on you though.)

Anyway, money and WE is out there, even for recent college grads. You just have to be flexible and relentless. As I think somebody already mentioned, if you can't get a job right now that doesn't bode well for your ability to succeed in OCI.
Last edited by mrmangs on Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby teaadntoast » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:51 pm

eskimo wrote:For anyone who'd like to give an opinion: how useful would two years as a paralegal or other lower-level work in a law firm be? Are there better ways* to spend two years after college?

*I guess I mean, are there better ways for someone with a management/economics degree to spend two years off


Regardless of how it will look on an application (and I doubt it would hurt), it's a good idea.

You may like law as a subject, but absolutely loathe working at a law firm. It's better to discover this before you drop six figures on a legal education.

And the best way for a person with a management/economics/communications/Spanish/underwater basketweaving degree to spend two years is employed. Full stop.
Last edited by teaadntoast on Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby IAFG » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:52 pm

The Stig wrote:
IAFG wrote:
FlanAl wrote:It seems like people on this board are like "Hey why don't you just be a super rad manager or I-banker for like a year and then go to law school," and I think this comes from people who graduated a few years back when that sort of thing happened way more often. I just don't see that kind of thing happening these days but that could be due to me being in California in a city with about 12% unemployment.

I don't think people on this board see it that way. At least I don't. By "get a job" I mean a shitty, $28k a year sales or clerical job that you will hate but that will give you some experience and some chances to learn an industry.


See for some reason, that job does not sound so appealing :D

Doing things that suck builds character.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby rayiner » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:53 pm

FlanAl wrote:there's hustling with a management degree for management positions and then there is hustling with a humanities degree and no WE. I mean in 07 one of my friends with an anthro degree and mediocre GPA got a fat position at a company in Dubai 05-07 was a completely different animal than now. It seems like people on this board are like "Hey why don't you just be a super rad manager or I-banker for like a year and then go to law school," and I think this comes from people who graduated a few years back when that sort of thing happened way more often. I just don't see that kind of thing happening these days but that could be due to me being in California in a city with about 12% unemployment.

But on the topic of WE at OCI would having a year between UG and Law school being a barista etc. be a negative?


You know there are a lot of jobs in-between i-banker and barista.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:54 pm

IAFG wrote:
The Stig wrote:See for some reason, that job does not sound so appealing :D

Doing things that suck builds character.

This. And it also prepares you for the real world, where the jobs you get with your degree (even an HYS degree) will often suck.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby bk1 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:55 pm

Long story short, working sucks. Are there any spots open for trust fund baby or real housewife of idon'tcarewhere?

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby ResolutePear » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:56 pm

The Stig wrote:
IAFG wrote:
FlanAl wrote:It seems like people on this board are like "Hey why don't you just be a super rad manager or I-banker for like a year and then go to law school," and I think this comes from people who graduated a few years back when that sort of thing happened way more often. I just don't see that kind of thing happening these days but that could be due to me being in California in a city with about 12% unemployment.

I don't think people on this board see it that way. At least I don't. By "get a job" I mean a shitty, $28k a year sales or clerical job that you will hate but that will give you some experience and some chances to learn an industry.


See for some reason, that job does not sound so appealing :D


People rag on me all the time for working fastfood, but with even an Associates in *almost* anything, you can start as a Shift Mgr.

In Burger King, General Manager track was a 2 year deal. It's not for everybody - it's high stress, shitty workers, shitty customers, long hours, but pretty decent pay for what it is.

Shift Mgr - ~29k, hourly wage.
Asst. Mgr - 38k w/ benefits(health, dental, 401k), 45 hour work weeks.
General Mgr - 55k w/ benefits

It's not big money, but it was pretty decent experience for me. Those salaries are "average" though, if you're good - you have lots of bargaining power over your salary, also a good skill to learn early on.

Of course, it's not for everybody - but look at the job very closely: high stress, shitty workers, shitty customers, long hours, but pretty decent pay.

Very important edit: Fast food is recession proof.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby teaadntoast » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:58 pm

ResolutePear wrote: Of course, it's not for everybody - but look at the job very closely: high stress, shitty workers, shitty customers, long hours, but pretty decent pay.


So, basically, BigLaw = Burger King?

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby ResolutePear » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:59 pm

teaadntoast wrote:
ResolutePear wrote: Of course, it's not for everybody - but look at the job very closely: high stress, shitty workers, shitty customers, long hours, but pretty decent pay.


So, basically, BigLaw = Burger King?


Erm, I've never been in big law - so I wouldn't know first hand... but from what I can objectively compare to my own experience: yes, but you have better job security.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:12 pm

teaadntoast wrote:
ResolutePear wrote: Of course, it's not for everybody - but look at the job very closely: high stress, shitty workers, shitty customers, long hours, but pretty decent pay.

So, basically, BigLaw = Burger King?

Actually, that might not be a bad analogy...

They're both service industries, too. BigLaw provides a far more expensive service, and has much nicer uniforms.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby FlanAl » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:59 pm

mrmangs wrote:
FlanAl wrote:there's hustling with a management degree for management positions and then there is hustling with a humanities degree and no WE. I mean in 07 one of my friends with an anthro degree and mediocre GPA got a fat position at a company in Dubai 05-07 was a completely different animal than now. It seems like people on this board are like "Hey why don't you just be a super rad manager or I-banker for like a year and then go to law school," and I think this comes from people who graduated a few years back when that sort of thing happened way more often. I just don't see that kind of thing happening these days but that could be due to me being in California in a city with about 12% unemployment.

But on the topic of WE at OCI would having a year between UG and Law school being a barista etc. be a negative?


I didn't start applying to jobs until right at the time my B.A. was awarded because I was pretty sure I was going to be headed to graduate school. It only took me a couple months after deciding against getting a PhD to land a job at a law firm (in LA, so don't talk about CA being a bad job market). I eventually left that for a new one. I have a "useless" liberal arts degree and had no prior WE.

Getting a job is just about selling yourself. Other factors matter, but spam convincing, flawless cover letters and interview well, and you can get a job ITE. The problem is getting your foot in the door. Your mad interviewing skills and writing prowess won't get you anywhere if you can't get anyone to read your letter or talk to you in the first place.

Going to top UG helps a great deal in getting people to take you seriously, regardless of what you majored in. Aside from that, hit up alumni and network through friends, parents, and professors to see if you can talk to someone in a field you're interested in. And, of course, shoot out applications like a motherfucker through your school's career portal website (if it has one), Monster, and Craig's List. If you persevere through sending hundreds of applications, someone will eventually bite. Then you gotta follow up on the whole "selling yourself" part. (It was easy to convince people that my degree could be brought to bear on their work in a meaningful way. And it has, because it taught me to think critically, research effectively, write well, and analyze very complicated information. It also gave me a good writing sample.)

As I said, the quality of your UG comes into play. Your GPA will come into play. Your degree will come into play depending on how relevant it is (of course, you can make it relevant once you start talking to employers, but some majors will obviously get more attention when they just simply look at your resume).

It also depends on what sort of job you want to get. I was flirting with the idea of going into consulting, and got interviews at some top firms and a few good boutiques even though I'd never taken a single economics or accounting class, but I decided working at a law firm would be much better considering I was thinking about law school. Yes, you probably won't be able to get a job as an accountant (or even a "bookkeeper") without having studied accounting, but if you want to go the finance route, consulting is a viable option regardless of your degree. You just have to be able to solve problems. Get a case workbook and start studying. (I'm pretty sure UG quality is a big factor in getting consulting firms to take a chance on you though.)

Anyway, money and WE is out there, even for recent college grads. You just have to be flexible and relentless. As I think somebody already mentioned, if you can't get a job right now that doesn't bode well for your ability to succeed in OCI.


I'm not debating whether jobs are out there its whether WE worthy jobs are out there. LA is a way different can of worms than SD, i mean its a major legal market and has way more jobs period. (As far as school quality i posted earlier Ivy and UC grads I know are unemployed and the other poster said Berkeley and UCLA.) Is having any kind of a job at a law firm good WE? I've seen conflicting views on the boards before, maybe some paralegals who recently went through OCI can report on that.

Pear brings up something that would be very relevant to what the OP is asking. Is it worth it to spend the 3 years at Burger King to get to the management position and stay in it for long enough to get the relevant WE?

I totally get that there are jobs out there (hey I've been employed since I was 14 and have a job now!) but the crucial point is what jobs are out there that provide WE like vanwinkle's? These types of WE are obviously going to kill it in an interview its whether your year as a clerical assistant etc. will. My guess would be that it wouldn't really help that much.

I'm really not trying to be a pain and I'm sorry if I am. I just know that 3-4 years ago when a lot of posters got hired for their WE there was way more relevant WE going around than there is now. If OP has some kind of management etc. job lined up at graduation then getting WE is probably advisable. But if not then we should talk about the potential risks of having a 6 month gap on your resume while you are sending out all those cover letters and then filling that gap with an entry level clerical job. I'm not sure this would be as impressive as just going straight to a T6.

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Re: Passing up on HYSCCN Acceptance to Increase Chances at OCI?

Postby FlanAl » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:04 pm

rayiner wrote:
FlanAl wrote:there's hustling with a management degree for management positions and then there is hustling with a humanities degree and no WE. I mean in 07 one of my friends with an anthro degree and mediocre GPA got a fat position at a company in Dubai 05-07 was a completely different animal than now. It seems like people on this board are like "Hey why don't you just be a super rad manager or I-banker for like a year and then go to law school," and I think this comes from people who graduated a few years back when that sort of thing happened way more often. I just don't see that kind of thing happening these days but that could be due to me being in California in a city with about 12% unemployment.

But on the topic of WE at OCI would having a year between UG and Law school being a barista etc. be a negative?


You know there are a lot of jobs in-between i-banker and barista.


haha I definitely realize this I was just wondering if being a barista etc would hurt you in an interview. seems like you could do the same bs talk that you'd have doing clerical/admin stuff about project deadlines, time management, leadership skills etc. if you were a barista. I just don't know how they'd take it.




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